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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 2:16:21 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

For those who choose to use it to obfuscate the essential Class basis of all struggle and conflict.


You really believe class to be the "basis of all struggle and conflict"?


"Help, Help, Im being repressed!   Now we see the violence inherent in the system."  Dennis

"Bloody Peasant"  King Arthur

Truer words have never been uttered.

Sinergy


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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 2:32:16 PM   
BlueCollar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Dont say that you will upset those who have eyes,wont look, but will spew out
"hi falutin" technical definitions masquerading as scientific knowledge or more importantly understanding of the inner recesses of nature.


I'm not quite sure I follow what you're saying.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 2:32:35 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

As we become more in contact with people in other cultures, the differences blur and we become more homogenized as a species.

Sinergy


Possibly, this will happen in time. Very probably, the idea of this freaks out those that are attached to their self-perceived appartenance to any particular 'race'. It's something I have noticed a lot recently since I arrived in the USA.

Personally, I don't give a flying duck's fuck; as a woman with a slightly diverse 'ethnic' background, I offer an aspirin-pale face to the world, but I will always be intrinsically somebody else's 'nigger': suffice to take a peak in the 'Gorean' threads to see that there are still some chest-thumping apes out there, needy and desperate to assert themselves as 'males', as opposed to as 'individuals'.

I never wished to belong to any kind of group because I always sensed there was something dodgey about the group. And as I grow older, I can see my initial instinct was correct.

Please forgive me for ranting, but this was, after all, the force that drove me to post this thread in the first place

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 2:35:12 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueCollar

Well, I see what you and a few others are saying Zensee, but let's also make it clear that some races do have distinct physical or mental advantages over others, and that's not neccesarily a bad thing. 

For example, Negroids tend to have more efficient respiratory systems than Caucasians or Eastern Asians and are, more often than not, better long distance runners as a result.  Eastern Asians tend to have more dominant Math Logic Genes in their DNA, which many are linked to their ability to problem solve quicker than others.  



Okay... I'll stay calm here. But it's hard... if only, if only there were a few Gods out there to help me...

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 2:47:13 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueCollar
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Dont say that you will upset those who have eyes,wont look, but will spew out
"hi falutin" technical definitions masquerading as scientific knowledge or more importantly understanding of the inner recesses of nature.

I'm not quite sure I follow what you're saying.

Whatever it means it wasn't a dig at you. DomKen comes to mind tho' lol

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 2:59:27 PM   
EbonyFtshGoddess


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From: Hollywood Hills, CA
Status: offline 		i'm just doing a fast reply (although it's not so fast), so it's not directed at anyone in particular.  i did happen to read the entire thread (yes all 10 pages at this point.)

i see some fundamental misuage of words that i feel may be the crux of some of the arguments. and no, it's not being semantical. words convey what people hold to be true or what people accept universally as *truth.* choosing the wrong words to express oneself is opening up oneself for an onslaught of misunderstandings.

i have degrees in both marine biology with an emphasis in taxonomy and anthropology with an emphasis in biological/physical anthro& linguistical anthro. i have also taken a lot of cultural anthropology courses for my degree. now, like someone said earlier, i'm not stating this to show myself as an authority.. but i do know a thing or two about scientific nomenclature and the evolution of our species.

from what i have read, Kit isn't saying that there are no *physical* or *cultural* differences betwixt what has come to be colloquially known as "race." she is saying that there are no biological differences that warrant such distinctions.

biologically speaking, there is only one living, modern Human species- Homo sapiens sapiens. there was another now extinct Homo sapiens subspecies named Homo sapiens idaltu.  if they were still around today, then we could slightly justify using *race* to differentiate us, Homo sapiens sapiens, from them- seeing how technically they are a different subspecies. but even then it would be a stretch to differentiate much between them and us considering that anything past the trinomial level is really starting to get tedious.

what people here on the board seem to be using to describe what they view as "race" is actually what is taxonomically known as "infrasubspecific" or "quadranomial" classification. infrasubspecific things are like dog and human populations. if we went that far into the taxonomy of humans, to the infrasubspecific level.. that would then make our scientific name look something like: 

  • Genus (Homo)
    • Species (sapiens)
      • Subspecies (sapiens)
        • Sub subspecies (black/white/asian/hispanic..etc)
by the time you get THAT far into scientific classification, you pretty much may as well take up the passtime of counting grains of sands on the beach. that is taking things to such miniscule and geno/phenotypically insignificant levels, that it really would become an exercise in futility.

yes, various human populations do look different and have different facial features, skin tones and characteristics. HOWEVER these are purely phenotypical characteristics. also, phenotypical traits don't always have to be genetic, they can also be  supragenetic or environmental.

cultural anthropology does delve into the concept of "race" and how an individual relates to his cultural environment and to the cultures of others. we have different cultures, we can even go insofar as to identify with members of the same phenotypical group.. but anything beyond that is REALLY splitting hairs and it's not anthropologically sound.

obviously the human mind needs to put things into little neat packages in order to better quantify or construct/deconstruct things to make them something they can easily mentally digest.

to classify someone as a black person, or a white person,  this or that could accurately describe someone (but not always) and phenotypical difference is not sound enough to classify various populations as different races. neither is skin colour either, a good example would be heather locklear. she is technically be considered African-American because, according to the "one drop rule" that america loves SO much, having documented black ancestors (no matter how distant in her family's past) makes her black. so  technically  yes yes, little white as snow Ms. Locklear is a sista.. and if you look at her from a purely phenotypical standpoint she's just like every other white person.. i bet you her genetic markers bespeak of a different ancestry.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/locklear.html

it's really hard to use phenotypical traits as a basis for justification in seperating populations into race. Kit was very correct when she said her genetic markers could resemble someone halfway across the globe more than they would her own sibling.

i can see the stance of people who say race is a necessary distinction because it helps them better relate to their world, but it's simply not an accurate word to describe what they are attempting to convey. more correct would be "population" a slightly looser term could be "ethnicity" although people of various human populations can also be ethnically bound either by religion, or territory- not just phenotypical traits.

if people feel the need to say "race".. i say let 'em. yeah, they're about as incorrect as i would be if i called an apple a grape. science and evolution has taught me that an apple is indeed not a grape. science and  genetic advances has taught us that the concept of race is really antiquated and simply not an accurate description to depict the various human populations found on this planet- yet people still cling to it.

you don't see people running around anymore saying that the earth is flat (actually there still are a few flat-earthers) so i don't see why genome projects are totally eschewed in favour of clinging to erroneous, irational, suppositional conjecture? i see some backing up their assertions with facts and i see others totally picking and choosing what they want to respond to while backing up their claims with personal beliefs, conjecture and an endless sea of rhetoric. or even worse.. jumping in to a discussion, admitting having not read the whole thread, then arguing points that no one is contesting!

there seems to be a lot of, "well as long as everyone else says race then i'll say it too."

to ignore the differences inherent in each population would be as detrimental as placing more relevence upon said differences than need be.

we should obviously embrace our differences rather than pointing out how there are *enough* differences to make us all seperate races.  scientifically speaking that premise is laughable at best. it just shows me that whomever holding steadfastly to these ideals simply has no grasp of elementary genetics or the evolution of humanity.




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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 3:18:28 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Ebony, yours was an amazing post. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 3:28:40 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess
biologically speaking, there is only one living, modern Human species- Homo sapiens sapiens. there was another now extinct Homo sapiens subspecies named Homo sapiens idaltu.  if they were still around today, then we could slightly justify using *race* to differentiate us, Homo sapiens sapiens, from them- seeing how technically they are a different subspecies. but even then it would be a stretch to differentiate much between them and us considering that anything past the trinomial level is really starting to get tedious.


So then we basically agree?  i said several pages back:

i was always an advocate of the use of the word "culturalism" in its place.

i feel most people confuse the method of identification with the specifics of an issue.


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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 3:41:05 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		See what I mean about "hi falutin" technical terms.
Definitions my dear definitions!
Look at Homo Sapiens as a whole and see  that behavioral physical and intellectual differences dont exist in clusters or racial/ cultural groups Really?
You might, I dont.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 3:43:16 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

from what i have read, Kit isn't saying that there are no *physical* or *cultural* differences betwixt what has come to be colloquially known as "race." she is saying that there are no biological differences that warrant such distinctions.


Actually that position has been repeatedly posited, and KS has rejected it, going so far as to claim that sociology and cultural anthropology are merely 'humanities', and not science, and repeating that no science uses the concept of race.

And when asked about documented biological differences (which are clear cut, from epicantheal folds, to melatonin levels, to  percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers, etc.) between those who fall into categories deemed as 'race', her response was to imply prejudice.

Which is very odd, given that the 'no such thing as race' over generalization is so often employed by those attempting to excuse racism by denying that it can even exist.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 3:51:33 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Al, my friend, you still haven't calmed down! Perhaps a stint on the naughty chair will do you some good.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 3:57:35 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		What's with your consistently silly disposition..?

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 4:09:52 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		It's there purely with the hope that you will keep on calling me 'silly'. It does something to me. Please, don't stop.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 4:11:58 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		Pft.  You're nearly twice my age.

Ah wells.  At least it's kinky-ish.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 4:18:33 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Actually, CuriousLord, I have to tell you: you are so turgid in your thoughts, so unimaginative, you seem to be of no age at all. Perhaps it makes you feel good to seem old and staid?

I shiver to think what you'll be like when you're my age. Because it's true, I could be your mother; perhaps that's why I've felt like taking you over my knee and giving you a bloody good spanking on more than one occasion.

Show some respect before expecting it back. SMACK.


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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 4:29:25 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		Great.. now you want to start a cat fight.  =/  (Meow?)  Forgive me if I do not chose to participate.

Feels good?  Hum.. what feels good.. to move.  To come closer to understanding this world.  Yes, I'm quite serious in this pursuit- I have goals to meet and an agenda to fulfill.  Perhaps this would be more laughs and giggles if life were to be longer, but surely you realize this isn't the case?

In any case, I haven't asked you about your silliness to insult you.  I'm sincerely curious why you take such a lax approach.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 4:58:27 PM   
EbonyFtshGoddess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

See what I mean about "hi falutin" technical terms.
Definitions my dear definitions!
Look at Homo Sapiens as a whole and see  that behavioral physical and intellectual differences dont exist in clusters or racial/ cultural groups Really?
You might, I dont.


lol.. i do know that i tend to be verbose, for that i won't apologize. my mother paid good money for my education and she has always told me never to dumb myself down.. everyone has the same dictionary and access to material that i do.

i could define anything for you that was unclear in my previous post, or you could go one step further and look them up for yourself. save for a few typos here and there, all of the terms that are foreign to you could easily be googled.

as far as behavioural, physiological, or intellectual capacity is concerned.. hmm

that answer lies in a rather complex valley.

we have to take in to account more than just genotype when dealing with intellectual capacity. there is of course, ongoing debate as to whether or not intelligence is a "learned behaviour" or "inherited."  a debate that i don't feel would be appropriate here. i noticed that few people at least in this particular thread, are capable of true debate in a true debate fashion.. ie.. a flawed premise renders your argument invalid.. sorta thing. and i'm seeing flawed premises being tossed about like footballs.

anyhoo.. your intelligence etc question can be brought down to this..

aaah, the proverbial nature vs. nurture debate.

people often rely on intelligence quotient to discern and act as a barometer to gauge the intellectual capacity of a person. if purely going by intelligence quotient, then i would say that there are disparaging discrepancies betwixt the human populations.

i will also say, that given other indexes and barometers.. any cognizant Homo sapiens sapiens (maybe we should just all call each other that.. yeah it's a little long, but so is this thread, but i digress) would draw attention to the fact that various factors play in to account.

Nutrition:
without proper nutrition/food/clean water etc, important structures in the brain are not able to properly devolop. a lot of the lowest IQs in the world also stem from 3rd world countries of varying phenotypical traits and ethnicities. nutrition is something most of the western world takes for granted, but there is a such term as "brain food" for a reason. imagine a brain with NO food. this is your brain.. this is your brain on.... ok you get the picture.

i bet if a study was done with malnourished asian children and nutritionally sound asian children in regards to intelligence quotient, that the differences would be evident- probably favouring the nourished child. hell, for that matter i'd love to see a universal double blind study on the IQs of US children verses DBSs of children across the globe at large. :: shudder ::

Economics:

let's face it.. poor people that have to farm what they eat, drag water like 5 miles from a dirty, polluted swamp/creek/lake thingie are probably a lot less concerned about education. they're probably more worried about finding enough food, hoping their 5 month old baby doesn't develop dysentary from rancid water,  or not being hacked to death due to intertribal warefare and ethnic cleansing. making sure little johnny, rashni or mubutu gets a quality education is the least of their worries- they need to get their asses out there and plow some fields or haul some water. i'm not saying it's right.. but it IS what their reality is. the case of the bosnian/serbian conflict readily comes to mind when thinking of ethnic cleansing and what would be construed anthropologically speaking of "intertribal warfare.:  so it's not just africa with problems love.. our whole WORLD is fucked because of segregationist and conjectural thinking.

it's not a matter of being politically correct. i say a lot of NON pc shit. but i make sure whatever the hell comes out of my mouth is correct, whether politcally or not.. what i say is correct.

when i'm wrong, and yes i can graciously admit i'm wrong, then i expect my misconceptions to be challenged with fact.. not personal belief.

based in fact.

to deny the toll of imperialism on africa, new zealand, tasmania and damn near anywhere else on the globe is to be, putting it as eloquently as i can, daft.

to completely devastate, decimate and improverish a country is tantamount to the raping and pillaging of the vikings (in its brutality i mean.)

you wonder why there has been no real leadership in africa so to speak? and why, for the LIFE of you,  you cannot fathom nor grasp why they can't get their shit together?

hmm.. maybe you can ask the imperialists of africa that left the continent in pretty much ruins.  you know,  when they left the tutsis to be controlled and governed by the tutsis? or when they took control of the diamonds? and gold? well there goes the wealth of that place.

imperialists often pitted intertribal *bad blood* to their favour and then just pulled out once their pockets were fat enough or when they realized they were in over their heads. hey, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.. no?

what was and is left is tantamount to how iraq would be if we pulled out suddenly (not saying we should or shouldn't.. just an analogy.. and nor am i derailing this to an iraq debate, but it is an apropos analogy in regards to why africa is so fucked up.)

what would be left would be an impoverished and tribally initiated civil war-led country if we just got up and left.

to turn your eye blind to that is ostrich of you in nature.

i know it's all too convenient to see things happening in *shitty nations* and being so far removed from it to even begin to relate or empathize. i can also see how that naughty little trait of humanity to have to shape things to fit their reality can be overwhelming. it's too convenient to say.. oh they're just africans that can't get their shit together (i'm nto talking about US blacks.. i'm talking about the continent of africa) have you TRULY taken time to figure out why? it's too convenient to blame it on them being black. it would be a lot less convenient to look at EVERYONE's hand in the matter objectively.

here is a nice little wikipedia link for you. perhaps it could shed some light on your darkroom of apathy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa










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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 5:04:04 PM   
EbonyFtshGoddess


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quote:

And when asked about documented biological differences (which are clear cut, from epicantheal folds, to melatonin levels, to percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers, etc.) between those who fall into categories deemed as 'race', her response was to imply prejudice.

Which is very odd, given that the 'no such thing as race' over generalization is so often employed by those attempting to excuse racism by denying that it can even exist.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

what you're describing.. the eye folds, melatonin.. etc are supragenetic phenotypical differences.

not enough to garner a species distinction.

now since i do work and study in taxonomy.. we DO change sometimes. sometimes sub species will have enough differentiations to warrant their OWN species. that is what humans call "race"..

but in reality it's just not race, love. it's a phenotype differentiation. but not on a level warranting a different infrasubspecific delineation.

quote:

from what i have read, Kit isn't saying that there are no *physical* or *cultural* differences betwixt what has come to be colloquially known as "race." she is saying that there are no biological differences that warrant such distinctions.


Actually that position has been repeatedly posited, and KS has rejected it, going so far as to claim that sociology and cultural anthropology are merely 'humanities', and not science, and repeating that no science uses the concept of race.

And when asked about documented biological differences (which are clear cut, from epicantheal folds, to melatonin levels, to  percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers, etc.) between those who fall into categories deemed as 'race', her response was to imply prejudice.

Which is very odd, given that the 'no such thing as race' over generalization is so often employed by those attempting to excuse racism by denying that it can even exist.



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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 6:00:11 PM   
EbonyFtshGoddess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Ebony, yours was an amazing post. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.


compliment well taken.. and what a thought provoking topic to re-enter the forums on.

honestly, i find these forums to be sorta vapid and vacuous.. not trying to be a bitch, i just see emotion overshadowing facts.

but i felt, with my background, and my OPENMINDEDNESS.. that i had to say something.

i may read the forums, but i just don't post. typically it is rather not worth my time.

but when i see people totally like. hmm. what's the word i wanna say?.. just like.. totally ignoring facts based on personal belief.. rather than fact, i realized ok. i had to say a few things. i feel that in america where i live (more specifically califnornia) that such issues *typically* TYPICALLY aren't such a big deal. at least in so cal.

myself i'm multiracial. i represent pretty much every genotype.. although i don't know if i have a typical asian marker. i'm black, cuban and irish. i really want the total genotypic evaluation offered by a few places. this is the one i would get it from if i had to pick.
http://www.tracegenetics.com/dnaancestry.html

my family is a family of mutts and i know that a lot of people have issues with that. however, i didn't choose to have my irish grand da fall in love with a black woman. i also didn't cause my cuban mother to be cuban and my dad black.

my sister's son, my nephew, didn't choose to be born with light skin and blue eyes or with blond hair..lol and no he's not albino. just a mix of all of our gene pools. my sister is black and cuban but her father is irish and black.. my mom is cuban but my sister has the last name of Miller and is light as hell. myself, i have a different father, i am not ashamed to say that. but i am black, cuban and irish from another side of my family from my mom. my son is black, cuban, irish, german and italian (even tho his father relates to being *roman* see, even some italian differentiate themselves.)

my son was so white  when he was born that i was asked often if i was the nanny when i nursed him in public. what the fuck? i was also nabbed at Lego Land in san diego for pushing a $400 stroller with no baby in it, no one bothered to notice that my son was on my back in a baby sling.. they apprehended me and literally held me there until his WHITE father came to claim us. his father showed up looking like a super pierced and tattooed, ex skinhead with over 60 hours of work on him.. demanding me and his baby are released. they saw a white man coming to clain his baby and woman and suddenly the fact i said that my son was in fact my son held weight.

VOILA.. things changed.

never mind the fact that my son was firmly latched on to my brown nipple. i even had a white woman at the santa monica pier tell me she didn't know that wet nurses still existed. like i could EVER be paid enough to nurse someone else's bloody child!

people CANNOT, at least those unwilling to conceive of it, accept that race is a crapshoot.. oops.. not race.. PHENOTYPES are a crap shoot.

what people fail to understand, is that race, as they would describe it, would inhibit us from interbreeding.

when people say "race" they really mean "species" with varying phenotypes. but hey.. it's *race*  but sadly the word *race* entered into popular colloquial lexicon and that's pretty much it.

i don't think you are saying there is not a such thing as cultural differences. hell, if so there would be no food differences, no differences in territory or what have you. you're not blind,  you can see we are all different colours.. HOWEVER, we're all fundamentally HUMAN. i can take your blood and infuse it to mine if you were of the proper match.

fuck could i take the blood of a chicken and give you a blood transfusion?

blood is the lifeline... if one can share blood then they are the same.

PERIOD

and i feel sorry for those who may not feel the same.

race is SHIT to me. i have people in my family that are as white as can be.. and Shaq black. and we accept them all as as part of our family.

i am SO sorry that people cannot see beyond race, but i'm one of those weirdos. i have WP friends in germany, i have a white man as the father of my son. i have nephews that are white as snow.

i also have filipino ( yes.. that's the CORRECT spelling.. not philipino) people think i'm fili and i have eyes and skin tone like them.

i wish people would transcend phenotype.

like seriously.

ps.. i don't bother to spell check things.

if i have typos, before anyone can attack me for them. contexturally..

i hope you see where i am coming from


*edited to add*

http://www.tracegenetics.com/dnaancestry.html




< Message edited by EbonyFtshGoddess -- 8/4/2007 6:53:41 PM >

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/4/2007 6:32:26 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Al, my friend, you still haven't calmed down! Perhaps a stint on the naughty chair will do you some good.


i'm jealous!


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to kittinSol)
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