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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 4:19:21 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hi kittinSol........ You are correct in as much that the theory is we all evolved from one source. Race though, and the concept of it, doesn`t go back that far. As you say it is a modern construct, so surely we can only look at the term in that context. 

The English race and French race don`t consider themselves the same, not based on colour or dna but on culture and history, even though much of it is intertwined.



Hi - the French and the English aren't two different races; I can vouch for this from a highly personal level.


Hi again...We will have to differ then. i am English and dont see the connection that you mention. Even if the Normans did conquer England, the main influence is still Germanic due to the Angles and the Saxons who preceded them. The Romans and Vikings and Celts also had some influence so i know we are a mishmash though.



This has been settled once and for all. Their is no genetic difference between the Anglo-Saxons and Normans, they are absolutely of the same stock. Also most so called Viking blood in Britain has been genetically verified as being Danish, the same as the Anglo-Saxons and Normans. All originated on the strip of coast going from northern France (Dunkirk area through Belgium and Holland to Schliesweg-Holstein). The closest language to Anglo-Saxon English is Friese, from northern Holland. Most Brits are 75% Anglo-Saxon, 25% Celt. Of course this varies throughout the country but there is no real difference between any of the nations of the British Isles, even the Irish (no doubt they will protest) have a substantial amount of Anglo-Saxon, Danish and Norman (all being the same) blood in them.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 4:49:03 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Rule: what accounts for the observable differences in abstract reasoning capability then ? Assuming you accept such differences exist, which seems undeniable to me.

Just as interesting for Darwinists: why did such faculties evolve any way 'cos they didn't confer advantage  to primitive species when survival or breeding were concerned.

In fact the longest surviving species such as crocodiles or sharks have NO abstract reasoning skills at. Doesn't seem to have done them much harm.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 4:54:00 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Hi Meatcleaver....  I never said the Genetics were different. My post, that you quoted, states history and culture.

Please, if you are going to quote me, read what i have written first.


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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 6:07:52 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Rule: what accounts for the observable differences in abstract reasoning capability then ?
Abstract reasoning capability is tricky. Most highly intelligent - i.e. high IQ - people are extremely stupid. Let me put it this way: most humans are generalists, hence their average abstract reasoning capability. A few are specialists, resulting in them either being highly intelligent (i.e. they are fast thinkers) and stupid, or in a minority of cases - like me - in being intelligent and wise. Each - whether a generalist or one of the various types of specialists - has the same amount of nerve cells (approximately one hundred billion) and use them to the same degree, thus they have the same processing power, but only a few apply them in ways that result in a high abstract reasoning capability, whereas most apply them in ways that cause them to excell in other - equally important - mental capacities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Just as interesting for Darwinists: why did such faculties evolve any way 'cos they didn't confer advantage  to primitive species when survival or breeding were concerned.

Quite. Perhaps it is easier to comprehend when the statement is reversed: because they confer advantage humans are not a primitive species. Specialists definitely have an advantage over generalists - but only in limited conditions. When those conditions do not apply the generalist will have the advantage. A non-human example of this principle is the pollination of flowers. Some flowers are pollinated by all kinds of insects and vice versa an insect may pollinate all kinds of flowers. Some flowers and insects however evolve an intimate relationship: they only tolerate to be pollinated or to pollinate each other. This provides them with a reproductive advantage over other flowers or insects, but when one of them becomes extinct or suffers, the other will also become extinct or suffer. Whereas when a generalist flower or insect suffers or becomes extinct, the other flowers or insects, being generalists, do not suffer.
 
In The Hitchikers guide to the galaxy one colonization ship is crewed by hair-dressers exclusively: specialists. Of course their future colony will be doomed.
 
*This is my 1350th post!*

 

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/6/2007 6:15:29 AM >

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 6:58:38 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Almost everyone has the ability to think in abstract terms. Some are undoubtedly better than others  but it is a  probably uniquely human characteristic.

Evolutionists claim every life form in the limit has a common antecedent so while humans are not primitive now, far from it and that's one reason I reject evolution as it is currently believed.human  antecedents were primitive in the extreme.
It being admitted that high IQ confers no advantages when the basics of survival or breeding are considered it seems to me that Darwinists have a bit of a problem. NO?

Pleased to note Rule that you consider yourself to be a bit of an evolutionary diversion lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/6/2007 7:02:00 AM >

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 7:24:15 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Almost everyone has the ability to think in abstract terms. Some are undoubtedly better than others  but it is a  probably uniquely human characteristic.

Evolutionists claim every life form in the limit has a common antecedent so while humans are not primitive now, far from it and that's one reason I reject evolution as it is currently believed.
human  antecedents were primitive in the extreme. It being admitted that high IQ confers no advantages when the basics of survival or breeding are considered it seems to me that Darwinists have a bit of a problem. NO?

So another strawman to knock down.

The real truth of the matter is that abstract reasoning is present to some degree in a lot of social mammals. We've taught various apes and cetaceans symbolic languages of varying size vocabulary. Wolves, and dogs, communicate concepts vocally. non human apes have also been observed using tools in the wild and teaching their offspring to use the same tools.

Why would any species develop abstract reasoning ability? Some of it is pretty clearly tied in with social behaviour along with relying on food that is harder to sneak up on/acquire than a blade of grass. In the beginning it might be something as simple as the males who are better able to analyze when is the right time to challenge the group leader for dominance being the one who reproduces the most. Certainly once even a simple vocal communication begins the abstract connection between a sound symbol and what the symbol represents weeds out those in the population unable to comprehend. As communication and social structures became more complicated abstract reasoning ability became an increasingly necessary part of being part of human groups. Add in tool use and the fact that even a small improvement over the branch and rock as tools would convey a large advantage. That's a lot of different selective pressures for abstract reasoning ability so it isn't terribly surprising, except to those who insist godidit, that humans are as smart as we are.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 7:29:15 AM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		Straw equals proof...NO???


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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 7:56:00 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		DomKen: I think there's a Latin expression that covers your last post but I cant bring it to mind. It translates as....
Fancy  speculation after the event as to what might have caused the event, such speculation is then to be read as being the actual cause of the event.
Its the Lingua Franca of Darwinism lol Hope I am using Lingua Franca correctly !!

What is the point in evolutionary terms of very high level mathematical reasoning ability. Very few have got it, so why has it remained for those that do have it. Being able to verify Fermat's last theorem, or even pose it for that matter, didn't help put food on the table or keep the Sabre Toothed Tigers at bay did it ?
It certainly didn't help getting your hands on the best Female totty lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/6/2007 8:02:25 AM >

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 8:26:38 AM   
Zensee


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Status: offline 		Seeks - Some fancy speculations hold more water than other fancy speculations. It seem odd to dismiss an explanation simply because it's fancier than your own.

I'd love to see the statistics tables some people must be using to assert that certain populations are better or worse at abstract thought or more prone to despotism and corruption than others. These behaviours would have to be demonstrated over a considerably longer period of time than post WW2 to have any veracity though.  Should such differences be clearly demonstrated, then I'd like them to make the link between those differences and the genetic variations across populations.

It is of no matter that crocodiles do not demonstrate abstract reasoning. They don't need it to survive. It would probably be a liability as they would have to learn meditation in order to develop the discipline to lay still for hours waiting for dinner. "Adaptations" is also a problematic term in that is suggest that there's a collection of accessories waiting to be added to an organism's bag of tricks. Often faculties arise in response to one stimulus and find use in other areas or they are side effects of a new ability which incidentally increases the advantage of the species.

Abstract thought in our species was not an adaptation needed to bestow advantage in writing school exams - it is, as was previously explained, used by all social mammals to create social cohesion. It also happens to be useful, especially in our own hyper developed form, assisted by opposable thumbs, for tool use and development.

And even if we were to agree that the word "race" no longer be used it would not eliminate racism, just change the words we use to describe bigoted attitudes and behaviours. Cute try but a non starter. Nice to see people willing to be mindful of how they use language though.


Z.


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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 9:26:43 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

And even if we were to agree that the word "race" no longer be used it would not eliminate racism, just change the words we use to describe bigoted attitudes and behaviours. Cute try but a non starter. Nice to see people willing to be mindful of how they use language though.



How kind of you to think their blatant bad-faith is a show of language mindfulness!

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 9:57:51 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

DomKen: I think there's a Latin expression that covers your last post but I cant bring it to mind. It translates as....
Fancy  speculation after the event as to what might have caused the event, such speculation is then to be read as being the actual cause of the event.
Its the Lingua Franca of Darwinism lol Hope I am using Lingua Franca correctly !!

What is the point in evolutionary terms of very high level mathematical reasoning ability. Very few have got it, so why has it remained for those that do have it. Being able to verify Fermat's last theorem, or even pose it for that matter, didn't help put food on the table or keep the Sabre Toothed Tigers at bay did it ?
It certainly didn't help getting your hands on the best Female totty lol

Well I think my opinion of you can be summed up in a nice pithy English phrase so I guess we're even.

As to mathematical ability, A number of unanswered questions need to be answered. First how high level are you talking about? Fermat's last theorem is a pretty straightforward idea and is mostly famous because Fermat claimed that he had a proof of it. So Fermat's theorem is itself not proof of high order mathematical talent. Creating the proof may be indicative of such however with only a singl extant proof it doesn't give us enough evidence.

Second I'm unaware of any evidence that native mathematical talent of prodigy type is being selected for or at least conserved in the population. Without that evidence there is no real reason to explain the traits appearance in our population. It could simply be a neutral character that doesn't contribute to survival but doesn't detract from the chances of survival so it would be neither conserved nor selected against by natural selection.

As to what is going on with mathematical talent, last I read it is believed to be somehow related to musical talent and if some of the genes involved with one are involved in the other then it is possible that since musical talent has ben an attribute our population has been conserving if not selecting for for the last several thousand years it isn't unreasonable to believe that sometimes the gene mix in a person along side the environmental factors would result in a math genius rather than a musician.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 10:43:21 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Zensee: I dont have a problem with fancy speculations, its when they suddenly emerge as scientific facts that I take issue.
You say that crocs. dont need abstract reasoning capacity to survive, well neither do humans. As a species it exists in us and has been present thoughout known history. Why when its not necessary and in fact in many circumstances may be detrimental.
Lets say Fight or Flight or Speculate. The third option would soon lead to extinction therefore orthodox evolutionary theory says it should not exist. But it does !!

You also appear to believe that the only determinant of human capacity is in the genetic structure. Is that true or are you just unconsciously  assuming it to be so ?. Surely the genetic structure will affect the physical development of the "body machine" but once built what determines the performance ?
The cause of human consciousnes is  a total unknown as far as I know and IMO is likely to remain so.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 11:21:08 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Here begineth todays lesson:
Let us compare  any old banger of a motor car you care to name with a highly tuned Grand Prix racing car. Both have four wheels a chassis and a four stroke engine that all work on exactly the same principles but do they perform the same ?  You sensitive souls out there would answer no and if you knew enough about motor technology you would tell us why.

Now lets look at human group A and human group B  who do not perform the same but are apparently constructed the same way, controlled by their virtually identical genotypes.  Over the years observation/experience of these differences has given rise to some wicked behaviour, from both groups .This confounds you sensitive souls out there and since you dont know the cause of these different behaviour patterns and dont want to face obvious truths  you flounder around trying to muddy the waters rather than draw straightforward conclusions about the human condition and groups therein.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 11:30:33 AM   
EbonyFtshGoddess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueCollar


Okay, I sorta see what you're saying.  I do have a question in relation to all this.  If we were to take a look at the domesticated cat, there are obviously different species within the genus (am I using the right terminlogy here?) that can readily mate with each other and create a genetically mixed cross-breed.  If we can have different and recognisable "breeds" of cats, would we not be able to apply the same to humans?



you bring up a good point. if we absolutely had to get specific regarding species.. i suppose it would be technically correct to call various human populations as "breeds." like a dog or cat. because all cats are Felis silvestris catus.  there isn't Felis silvestris tabby or Felis silvestris persian. they're all cats just with different phenotypical traits.. like long or short fur, various coloured eyes etc.

not all animals have infrasubspecific populations (like different *races* or *breeds*).. whales and dolphins are a prime example. each whale/dolphin has it's own genus, species and sometimes sub-species. but they're all dolphin or whales. using the human definition of *race* all the different species of whale would be various *races* amongst the whale/dolphin populations because scientifically each one is classified differently. it's more than just phenotypical differences that brings us a killer whale versus a minke whale. they are much more seperated along genetic lines in comparrison to those of a dog, cat or human.


there is only one species of human, what we describe as *race* are the leftovers from environmental evolution and also from genetics. it's just that those differences aren't great enough to warrant sub-sub species of humans. the reason that cats, dogs, and people can intermix is because they're all fundamentally the same species. i couldn't mate a sperm whale with a blue whale. sometimes in nature you get cross-breeds like mules or whatever.. but usually the product of that union are often sterile.

do i realize the differences exist? well of course. i'd literally have to be blind not to. i just think the waters get muddied when you have people insisting on positions not based in fact and totally drawing conclusions that are grounded in personal belief or conjecture- not an understanding of the human genome... and that's fine.

i don't expect everyone to be a quantum physicist, physical anthrologist, and lost culture expert.

with that being said, i also wouldn't engage in debate with someone from those disciplines unless i knew what i was saying is backed up with hard, cold facts.

i do see where you're coming from tho.



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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 11:35:03 AM   
EbonyFtshGoddess


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Status: offline 		great points Rule.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 11:38:48 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Also most so called Viking blood in Britain has been genetically verified as being Danish, the same as the Anglo-Saxons and Normans.

This is most certainly untrue.

Danish for this area is just another synechdoche for scandinavians, overall. There is some variation in the phenotypical traits between the Danes, and the Norewegian and Swedish.  The Finns are also slightly out of round with this.    

Now, this may be a distinction without a difference, but a whole lot less Danish than other Scandinavians.

Ron

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 11:40:36 AM   
DesertRat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
Ok.....Heres the good news for all you freaks popping a blood vessel for the third day in a row, over whether or not the word race is accurate:   If there is no such thing as 'races' in humanity, that means that there cant possibly be such a thing as racism, racial slurs, or racists anymore.  


Maybe so, but there will always be people who insist on opening their soft boiled eggs at the large end, which is sheer madness as opposed to opening them at the small end, as God intended. So there will always be someone to hate.

Bob, (with a respectful tip of the hat to the great satirist, Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels) 

< Message edited by DesertRat -- 8/6/2007 11:53:12 AM >

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 11:45:33 AM   
DesertRat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
In The Hitchikers guide to the galaxy one colonization ship is crewed by hair-dressers exclusively: specialists. Of course their future colony will be doomed.
 


I don't think that's quite correct. I believe there were also several telephone sanitizers on that ship.

Bob

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 11:48:24 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Lest we forget:

race to the bathroom
the ratrace
race to the appointment you are late for
race to your own destruction



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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/6/2007 12:00:35 PM   
EbonyFtshGoddess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee


And even if we were to agree that the word "race" no longer be used it would not eliminate racism, just change the words we use to describe bigoted attitudes and behaviours. Cute try but a non starter. Nice to see people willing to be mindful of how they use language though.


Z.



truer words have never been spoken. elimination of the word *race* would NOT erase racism because the concept behind the ethno-cultural segregation would still be in place.

i think a step in the right direction would be for people to realize that there AREN'T *supposed* differences great enough betwixt the various human populations to warrant such a distinction as race, biologically speaking race is so moot. once people realize they're a lot more alike than they previously thought then the walls slowly start coming down.

i don't envision some kumbaya, peace pipe round table with all the various *races* of the world to ever come about anytime soon, but it would be nice for us to evolve a bit mentally as a species. we've probably done all of the genetic evolution that we're gonna need for a while.. it's time for us to mentally and spiritually evolve.

i don't see that happening anytime soon until certain generations on earth die. i know that sounds fucked up, but it's pretty much true. people that held certain views their WHOLE lives will not let no "hi falutin" science and psuedo psychobabble jargon sway their suppositional assertions... dangnabbit!

once some of the older, less *open minded* generations die off then it would interrupt the breeding cycle of hate, not entirely.. but enough to put a dent into it.

i know it sounds fucked, but it's just my opinion. i was told how my gramma grew up with racism that i could never imagine nor endure..yet never hated her aggressors, she just felt sorry for them because they missed out on knowing a great person. for my mom, not so much in the realm of racism.  for me, i've hardly experienced any racism at all- like i mean on a full on day to day level. i've never felt my race has held me back from anything.

it WILL get better. but we can't expect an institution centuries old to just break down without incident and we'll all be happy creatures. we have to remember, it was only in like 2000 or 2001 that Alabama repealed their anti-miscegenation laws so as antiquated, outmoded and simply lame these world views are- they're not goin anywhere until the generation that is mostly pushing them goes away.

these aren't ideas that are gonna be done away with elimination of a word.. no.. it's going to be done away with the people that hold steadfastly to them die.



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