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RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 8:30:04 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
You can legalize it....You can treat it like it is any other type of profession....I just think the people who participate in this line of work will pay a serious price.....They will lose a certain spark...They will have traded dollars for a piece of themselves....It's hard to put into words....I believe that people who pursue this industry suffer from side effects that are extremely unique to this occupation....It has little to do with the pressures or the opinions of society....It simply has to do with pursuing a line of work that is damaging to the soul....The people who participate just seem so empty,translucent and hollow.

That will have to do for now.

I think what you say is very common among sex workers to be sure.

But I have to ask whether this experience is INHERENT to sex work, or simply a symptom of the problem of how sex work is perceived and allowed to operate within society and has for the most of the modern age?

Since it didn't happen to me, I am not sure we can say it is inherent to the job itself.  But I've been known to be an exception before.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 8:30:17 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Wow i can't  believe i am saying this but.... i absolutely agree with you domiguy and you said so eloquently what my sentiments were, and i thank you for that.


Don't worry...It probably will never happen again.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 9:16:32 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainsandFreedom

- You cannot divorce the occupation from its conditions and thats why society makes it illeagle-to protect those who would enter into it as well as those who patronize it. It's physically and emotionally exploitative and leaves the worker with little to fall back on should they become unattractive or sick in terms of alternate employment.



Please consider this in the spirit of debate.

Adults are just that.  They have an obligation to protect themselves.  This is much like the make guns illegal advocacy; it doesn't make guns harder to buy, it just means only criminals will have them. 

Keeping prostitution illegal, means that the individuals who engage in the practice, will do so without any sort of regulation or protection from the state.  More to the point, it's making value choices for others, on what they would enjoy doing or not doing.  Do you feel coal mining is less exploitative?  What about working as a cleaning lady in a hotel?  A 10pm - 6am waitressing job at Denny's?  (I actually did the Denny's gig; I'll suck cock myself before I do it again.)  The point isn't that it's exploitative.  Many professions are; from professional sports, to advertising.  The real issue, is that when you make an activity illegal, you also demonize it.  Those who are desparate enough to resort to prostitution in the first place aren't 'saved' by the law preventing them; they are further ostracized from society by breaking the law to do so.

Regards,

Stephan


_____________________________

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"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 10:56:39 AM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
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Very thoughtful and interesting thread, for a change.
 
To answer a question I was asked, NO I am not a sex worker or a Professional Dominant.
 
But, I have never felt that I was better than them and I embrace them as being part of our community.

I have always found it so ironic that no matter what type of person someone IS, or what type of live they LIVE,
they always feel like they are better than certain other people.
 
So many in this lifestyle no matter how deviant they are, amoral, married dealing with other partners, etc. think
they are morally superior to other people.

I don't get that one.
It is not for me to judge other people, and NEWSFLASH!!!  You are not BETTER than sex workers, prostitutes or Professional Dominants.

There is a much higher judge than man, and we will all be judged by him.

Namaste

**I responded to DomiGuy but this is not directed to him, I just know he is a real attention HO.**

< Message edited by MzMia -- 8/6/2007 11:15:57 AM >


_____________________________

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To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 11:31:15 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

This is one of the topics that seem to seperate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to acceptance vs tolerance (a.k.a. "putting up with") vs intolerance. Some have very contemptuous attitudes with regard to sex work, regardless of whether it is a choice or a last resort. Which, obviously, does nothing to improve conditions for either of them.



Well, I firmly accept prostitution as a way of life/means of earning a living etc. 'No problem, here.

From an ownership of labour point of view, I would say prostitutes are far more than free than those in my field of work.

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RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 12:01:51 PM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
When I was 16 years old after school I worked in a strip joint helping the ladies backstage putting their costumes on etc.
Twenty bucks a week.
That's all I could afford.

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 12:02:17 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
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NorthernGent? ain't that the damn truth!
Especially when you know, how much an attractive and successful Professional Dominant can make.

I talked to one Professional Dominant, that was very business savy.
She was telling me how she invests in real estate and was buying her 2nd house, she was all of about 27.
Her plan was to get out of the business when she owned about 4 homes.
I said, you go girl!


< Message edited by MzMia -- 8/6/2007 12:04:28 PM >


_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 12:17:36 PM   
ChainsandFreedom


Posts: 222
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Keeping prostitution illegal, means that the individuals who engage in the practice, will do so without any sort of regulation or protection from the state.  More to the point, it's making value choices for others, on what they would enjoy doing or not doing.  Do you feel coal mining is less exploitative?  What about working as a cleaning lady in a hotel?  A 10pm - 6am waitressing job at Denny's?  (I actually did the Denny's gig; I'll suck cock myself before I do it again.)  The point isn't that it's exploitative.  Many professions are; from professional sports, to advertising.  The real issue, is that when you make an activity illegal, you also demonize it.  Those who are desparate enough to resort to prostitution in the first place aren't 'saved' by the law preventing them; they are further ostracized from society by breaking the law to do so.


I subscribe to the whole leagalization rather than demonization argument when it comes to copyright and drug law so I see where your coming from, however I'm not willing to embrace a Stephenson style anarcho-capitalism, so I disagree with you about this working for prostitution amoung other things.

While I agree with you about coal miner's and room attendants needing less exploitative working conditions (economies have been exploiting large segments of our populations for economic gain probably as far back as their have been prostitutes), I disagree with you that simply leagallizing prostitution would make any impact in improving the conditions of most prostitutes. There will always be a market for high-class whores in Washington D.C. or Amsterdam, but leagalizing this isnt going to make life better for hookers in the ghetto where poor people want to pay for sex and other poor people are willing to sell it very cheaply.

You could mandate that coal miners have better air filters, more shifts per day/less hours, and better pay. You could finance this through an increase in the cost of coal. Indeed, the law has been used in this case to make the world of American coal miners much better than the forced labor of South African diamond minors, for instance.

leagalizing prostitution isn't going to make conditions better for all prostitutes because there will continue to be a market for cheap prostitutes wherein people will circumvent the law. It's just going to decrease peoples motivation to crack down on prostitute abuses. Just because handguns are leagle, for instance, doesn't mean there isn't handgun abuse-it means there's more oppertunity for more handguns to be abused as compaired to other countries.

Add into this that the age of consent has nothing to do with the age of reason and Americans love easy money, and you're going to have an awful lot of 16 or 17 year old girls prepairing for a future as a prostitute rather than prepairing for college or doing less entertaining work. Like students stripping on the side but more emotionally intense and potentially detrimental than dancing. You'd also get a whole generation of men who would put even less effort into learning what woman are about and how to live with them and even more effort into simply buying sex.

While you're right that
quote:

  Adults are just that.  They have an obligation to protect themselves. 

You also have to consider the fact that adults are victims too sometimes and society has a responsibility to protect itself from its adults. There's nothing like having young prostitutes staring with hard PTSD/convict-like eyes at your Madame/girlfriend/daughter/whatever attractive female your associated with in public as you walk to a restuarnt in the nice part of a nice town to convince you theres something not right about the whole profession.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 12:23:29 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OwnedShylah


Master has never pushed me to whore myself or not. He is just there to be my support after a hard day of work.  

Shylah



I would think the so long as you are bringing home money, he would have no need to "whore you out".  But if you decide you no longer wish to "escort", I wonder how long it would take him to consider whoring you out himself, thus cutting out the middle man, but then that would make him your pimp and not your master.   Just a thought.

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 8/6/2007 12:27:03 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 12:55:23 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
, thus cutting out the middle man, but then that would make him your pimp and not your master.   Just a thought.

Are you suggesting one can't be both?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 1:35:37 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
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been there, done that. my Master has whored me out before, will very likely whore me out again, it's something that used to be a fantasy for us both but during some rocky financial times helped put food on the table and pay the bills. He always controls the arrangements, and it's always made clear that i am a submissive, and will only provide submissive services. sometimes it was fun and thrilling, sometimes difficult or scary, sometimes just plain boring. not much different from any other job, except worlds more interesting.

for us, whoring serves a higher purpose as well. it is a reminder that i am not simply "His" slut, i am "a" slut, created for the service and pleasure of Men, and may be loaned or whored out to any man in need. the truth is this planet desperately needs whores, they provide a valuable service to the state of humanity in general, by providing release and balance for those men in need.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 1:59:25 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
, thus cutting out the middle man, but then that would make him your pimp and not your master.   Just a thought.

Are you suggesting one can't be both?


Intention is everything.  If he does, it'll be amazing how his pimping identifier will erode his "master" identifier.  Hmmm.. I wonder then if she ceases to be a slave and thus becomes only a prostitute?
 
...can he be both?  You are asking that of a person who doesn't even acknowledge astrological cusps.  (One cannot be in two places at the same time).  A man will always take the easy way and pimping will be it if he has a ready situation.  But then of course he'll keep playing the master game to justify himself and eschew the moniker of Pimp and she'll obey because he "ordered" her to do so as her master.
 
But you will say "so"?
 
And I will propose that you consider that if one is in this "kommunity", how we act reflects on the whole.  That's my issue with this situation.

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 8/6/2007 2:02:01 PM >


_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 2:03:55 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
Intention is everything.  If he does, it'll be amazing how his pimping identifier will erode his "master" identifier.  Hmmm.. I wonder then if she ceases to be a slave and thus becomes only a prostitute?

...can he be both?  You are asking that of a person who doesn't even acknowledge astrological cusps.  (One cannot be in two places at the same time).  A man will always take the easy way and pimping will be it if he has a ready situation.  But then of course he'll keep playing the master game to justify himself and eschew the moniker of Pimp and she'll obey because he "ordered" her to do so as her master.

But you will say "so"?

And I will propose that you consider that if one is in this "kommunity", how we act reflects on the whole.  That's my issue with this situation.

That's a nice system you have of always being right.  Even if the master and slave are acting in accordance as such, and explain that their intentions are to be within the authority dynamic, you will just label it a "game."

So it doesn't matter what they say, what they feel is their truth- you know better than they do.



_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 2:04:23 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

...  A man will always take the easy way ...


Perhaps now we come to the real issue you have with the entire subject?

Firm

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Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 2:14:58 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
Intention is everything.  If he does, it'll be amazing how his pimping identifier will erode his "master" identifier.  Hmmm.. I wonder then if she ceases to be a slave and thus becomes only a prostitute?

...can he be both?  You are asking that of a person who doesn't even acknowledge astrological cusps.  (One cannot be in two places at the same time).  A man will always take the easy way and pimping will be it if he has a ready situation.  But then of course he'll keep playing the master game to justify himself and eschew the moniker of Pimp and she'll obey because he "ordered" her to do so as her master.

But you will say "so"?

And I will propose that you consider that if one is in this "kommunity", how we act reflects on the whole.  That's my issue with this situation.

That's a nice system you have of always being right.  Even if the master and slave are acting in accordance as such, and explain that their intentions are to be within the authority dynamic, you will just label it a "game."

So it doesn't matter what they say, what they feel is their truth- you know better than they do.




I love your posts LA,. They always have the wisdom of youthful naiveté.  I'll just sit back and watch your world unfold and hope you are right in things.   I know this from my own youthful debates.  As curmudgeon as I am, I am your future.
 
FirmhandKY:  Please keep my comments in context.  My computer is incapable of typing anything "between the lines".  I always hope that men aren't so prediuctable and will give them the benefit of the doubt :)

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 2:20:23 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: OwnedShylah


Master has never pushed me to whore myself or not. He is just there to be my support after a hard day of work.  

Shylah



I would think the so long as you are bringing home money, he would have no need to "whore you out".  But if you decide you no longer wish to "escort", I wonder how long it would take him to consider whoring you out himself, thus cutting out the middle man, but then that would make him your pimp and not your master.   Just a thought.


wow.....she says nothing to indicate her relationship is anything but mutually fulfilling between 2 consenting adults, and you reach in your bag of tricks and come out with this?

i may be wrong, but it seems you have some deeper issues about this subject that this op's choices in life......

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 2:25:18 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

FirmhandKY:  Please keep my comments in context.  My computer is incapable of typing anything "between the lines".  I always hope that men aren't so prediuctable and will give them the benefit of the doubt :)


Point taken, LotusSong ... but that phrase really did catch my eye. 

Firm


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Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 3:57:09 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong


I would think the so long as you are bringing home money, he would have no need to "whore you out".  But if you decide you no longer wish to "escort", I wonder how long it would take him to consider whoring you out himself, thus cutting out the middle man, but then that would make him your pimp and not your master.   Just a thought.


wow.....she says nothing to indicate her relationship is anything but mutually fulfilling between 2 consenting adults, and you reach in your bag of tricks and come out with this?

i may be wrong, but it seems you have some deeper issues about this subject that this op's choices in life......


No issues.  I've just seen it happen.  If anything, it's "head's up" for her.  I just look at the WHOLE picture is all.  She can take it or leave it.
 
(Bag of TRICKS??? Who do you think I am, Felix the cat?  ROFLMAO!!!)

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 4:14:35 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
I subscribe to the whole leagalization rather than demonization argument when it comes to copyright and drug law so I see where your coming from, however I'm not willing to embrace a Stephenson style anarcho-capitalism, so I disagree with you about this working for prostitution amoung other things.

While I agree with you about coal miner's and room attendants needing less exploitative working conditions (economies have been exploiting large segments of our populations for economic gain probably as far back as their have been prostitutes), I disagree with you that simply leagallizing prostitution would make any impact in improving the conditions of most prostitutes. There will always be a market for high-class whores in Washington D.C. or Amsterdam, but leagalizing this isnt going to make life better for hookers in the ghetto where poor people want to pay for sex and other poor people are willing to sell it very cheaply.

Statistics where the profession is both legal and regulated suggest otherwise; including the places in the United States where it is, in fact, legal.  That the profession is not legal, makes quality of working conditions much more difficult.  This is like saying the quality of work for Mexicans improves dramatically, by making it a misdemeanor for them to work in the US.  In reality, it enables those who employ Mexicans to abuse them far more; a raped prostitute, under our current system, has zero standing.  It's seen as 'a slut who got what she deserves.'  Neither the illegal immigrant, nor the prostitute, has any sort of legal protection.

Simply saying "sure, working conditions should be better" doesn't make it so.  A capitalist economy works on the principal, that the work we do supports itself.  Doctors and Lawyers are seen as protecting and saving what is most precious to us; our health and freedom.  (Sniggering?  Get slapped with a felony you didn't commit, and we'll see how much you are willing to pay for a lawyer) In contrast, a teacher is seens as providing a vague sevice that we do not see, and often do not feel we will ever directly benefit from; support for better teaching wages is seen almost as a charity, than the investment in our future.  So wishing for better conditions and pay for any sort of worker simply doesn't mean anything.

http://www.csun.edu/~psy453/prosti_y.htm

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/12/22/185323/82

The links may have a decidedly aggressive view, but their statics are cleary and easy enough to verify.

You could mandate that coal miners have better air filters, more shifts per day/less hours, and better pay. You could finance this through an increase in the cost of coal. Indeed, the law has been used in this case to make the world of American coal miners much better than the forced labor of South African diamond minors, for instance.

leagalizing prostitution isn't going to make conditions better for all prostitutes because there will continue to be a market for cheap prostitutes wherein people will circumvent the law. It's just going to decrease peoples motivation to crack down on prostitute abuses. Just because handguns are leagle, for instance, doesn't mean there isn't handgun abuse-it means there's more oppertunity for more handguns to be abused as compaired to other countries.

On the contrary, as I suggested, it allows abuse of legitimate sex workers to seek protection under the law that they are currently not afforded.  And why shouldn't it?  They would also be expected to pay taxes on their activities.  In fact, a system where worker is required to give a receipt (or some other document) to the client that clearly illustrates that she is regularly tested for STDs, could serve the double purpose of serving as evidence to the state that she is paying her taxes for her services.  A client who isn't given such a receipt up front, would be encouraged not to pay for her service in the first place. 

Add into this that the age of consent has nothing to do with the age of reason and Americans love easy money, and you're going to have an awful lot of 16 or 17 year old girls prepairing for a future as a prostitute rather than prepairing for college or doing less entertaining work. Like students stripping on the side but more emotionally intense and potentially detrimental than dancing. You'd also get a whole generation of men who would put even less effort into learning what woman are about and how to live with them and even more effort into simply buying sex

How many young people do you know look forward to a lifetime of stripping at 17, as their primary means of supporting themselves?  Or working in pornography?  I'm sorry, this doesn't fly for me. 

While you're right that
quote:

  Adults are just that.  They have an obligation to protect themselves. 

You also have to consider the fact that adults are victims too sometimes and society has a responsibility to protect itself from its adults. There's nothing like having young prostitutes staring with hard PTSD/convict-like eyes at your Madame/girlfriend/daughter/whatever attractive female your associated with in public as you walk to a restuarnt in the nice part of a nice town to convince you theres something not right about the whole profession.

Under our current model, I can only imagine the circumstances of a woman forced to have sex for money.  The beatings, rapes, and degredation such women are forced to endure alone would be enough to break a strong man.  The fact that you see such faces today and now, tell me that what we're doing right now simply doesn't work

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 8/6/2007 4:15:45 PM >


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to ChainsandFreedom)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Sex workers in the BDSM and D/s lifestyles - 8/6/2007 4:20:49 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

FirmhandKY:  Please keep my comments in context.  My computer is incapable of typing anything "between the lines".  I always hope that men aren't so prediuctable and will give them the benefit of the doubt :)


So, you're really saying in this case that a man who doesn't treat his slave in a manner you, personally, find acceptable, than he's taking the easy way out of financial situations.

Nothing between the lines about that.  Why can't you simply say "I dislike that people engage in this behavior" and be done with it?

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 60
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