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RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/16/2007 12:04:24 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

The Holocaust did happen. The evidence, both physical and testimonial is so overwhelming that to discuss whether or not it happened is silly – it would be like discussing whether or not the grass is green. That said, discussing how many people died in the holocaust is a legitimate inquiry. History is arguably the most biased of all disciplines, so it behooves us to try and be as accurate as we can. Still, it seems to me that getting worked up over whether the number was ten million or six million or "only" two million is silly. Even if it was "only" two million, I think that is more than sufficient to warrant checking off the Irredeemably Evil box next to the nazis.

Who said it didn't happen and what is your point?

The problem with sloppy history is that it becomes national myth (whatever the nation) which are invariably full of half truths and lies. Well documented and studied history is difficult to argue against and therefore helps counter justifications of future extremists.

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Post #: 141

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/16/2007 7:59:21 AM

Marc2b

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quote:

Excellent post.

Thanks.

quote:

It isn't clear to me exactly what special status the Hiroshima/Nagasaki victims have that those in Dresden or London or thousands of other places don't.

It all comes down to the world view that people embrace and to the pseudo-tribes that we identify with. Victims are placed upon a scale of greater or lesser victim-hood based upon who their victimizers (real or perceived) are. The victimizer in the atom bombings was the United States and for some people that is enough to place them high on the list. For others, it is enough to place them lower on the list.

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Post #: 142

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/16/2007 8:16:31 AM

Marc2b

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quote:

Appeal to philosophy is a dodge.

Philosophy is based on the foundation that the reason can be successfully divorced from the passions and the body.. which is nonsense.. all that produces is autistics.

The only morality is the morality of touch... everything comes from the body.

Philosophy is a game for morons.

The truth is in your skin.

Nonsense. Complete and total utter nonsense. Examining something from a rational, non-emotional perspective is not divorcing reason from passions. It is a tool for gaining new perspectives and for gaining insight into one’s emotions. It allows us to take actions that our emotions would argue against but our reason tells us we should do anyway because our emotions can be selfish. About a month ago, my cat was diagnosed with liver cancer. If I listened only to my emotions I would have told the vet to go fuck herself and taken my cat home. Reason dictated that the truly compassionate action was to have him put down.

A person who has completely divorced reason from emotion could indeed be considered emotionally crippled, but someone who never divorces reason from emotion is intellectually crippled.

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Post #: 143

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/16/2007 8:57:14 AM

Marc2b

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quote:

If we can accept that the west is just as venal, aggeressive and indiscriminate in its willingness to kill innocent people, we would have no argument.

Then we have no argument. Some people want to give a pass to the West and not it’s enemies and for some people it is the other way around. I see myself as looking upon the whole situation from a bird’s eye view. I look at everyone pointing fingers and saying "it’s the nazi’s fault! It’s the Japanese at fault! It’s the Mulims fault! It’s the Americans fault!" And on and on and on. I feel like I’m standing on top of a mountain peak shouting, "hey you dumb fucks! It’s our fault! It’s our human nature’s fault! It’s our tribal origins fault!"

Until we truly learn to divorce our reason from our emotion when looking for the cause we will continue to repeat the same pattern over and over. The bombing of Dresden et al, may or may not have had some military advantage (e.g. demoralizing your enemy while boosting moral at home) but the real reason was "You fucking bastards! Look what you did to us (read: our tribe)! Well there! Take that! How do you like that mother fuckers!" It is easy to condemn such actions but I think our condemnation must be tempered with fact this is just the human animal acting according to it’s nature. Compassion in such instances will not come naturally, it must be an intellectual choice.

quote:

For me the moral cowardice is shown by those that defend the innocent slaughter of civilians by pointing to crimes commited by their enemies.

What is one of the first phrases a human child learns? "He hit me first!" The second? "Everyone else is doing it!" A large percentage of the postings in the Off Topic section are adult versions of this.

For the record, I make no claim to being immune from this myself. I’m only human after all.

quote:

What really makes me laugh about these sort of discussions is how so called Christians (I don't know if you are one) forget some of their supposed core beliefs. But then Hitler was a Christian so I shouldn't be surprised.

I am a christian but I am not a Christian. Explanation: I accept the fact that I was born into, and raised up in, a culture heavily influenced by Christianity. That, because of this, the precepts of Christian morality formed the starting point, the foundation of my own philosophical and intellectual outlook and journey. I do not, however, believe in the Bible (not that it doesn’t have some interesting parts). I don’t believe in Heaven or Hell (I refuse to believe that the Creator is a hypocritical, sadistic prick), or the resurrection, etc. I ultimately view the Christian church the same way I view Muslims, or political parties, or sports teams – just another pseudo-tribe.

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Post #: 144

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/16/2007 9:08:54 AM

Marc2b

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quote:

Who said it didn't happen and what is your point?

Nobody (on this thread so far) said it but the tone of some of the posts seemed to be heading in that direction. The questioning of the numbers killed seemed to be taken by some as an argument against the Holocaust happening (or at least, that it wasn’t so bad). My point remains what I said it was: that arguing over whether or not the holocaust happened is silly and arguing about the numbers involved – for any reason other than accuracy for accuracy’s sake – is also silly).

quote:

The problem with sloppy history is that it becomes national myth (whatever the nation) which are invariably full of half truths and lies. Well documented and studied history is difficult to argue against and therefore helps counter justifications of future extremists.

But well documented and studied history – at least from a truly objective viewpoint – is rare. As for countering the arguments of extremists, that (with rare exceptions) is an exercise in futility. Extremists are ideologues and (yes, I’m going to say it again) the first rule of ideology is that the ideology is never wrong.

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Post #: 145

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/16/2007 10:42:57 AM

Alumbrado

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Very rare indeed.

Eyewitnesses cannot agree on what happened a few minutes after the fact, and historians should make no claim to being any better at providing a 'truth'.

Having said that, the "It's not holocaust denial/creationism/revisionist history, it's debate' is one of the more tiresome dodges out there.

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 146

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/16/2007 10:45:15 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Very rare indeed.

Eyewitnesses cannot agree on what happened a few minutes after the fact, and historians should make no claim to being any better at providing a 'truth'.

Having said that, the "It's not holocaust denial/creationism/revisionist history, it's debate' is one of the more tiresome dodges out there.

Before you dodge too far, I'm still waiting for you to point out in which thread and on which page I denied the holocaust.

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Post #: 147

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/16/2007 12:49:33 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Before you dodge too far, I'm still waiting for you to point out in which thread and on which page I denied the holocaust.

Are you directing this at Alumbrado or me? I'm going to presume me.

In reply, I've never accused you of denying the Holocaust and I don't know what I've written that would make you presume such. I'll try to clairify again. NorthernGent's questioning of the number of people killed in the Holocaust seemed to be taken by some (judging by the tone of their responses) that he was denying the Holocaust ever happened at all. I just wanted to put in my two cents in hopes of putting the kibosh on such a silly notion before the discussion devolved any further.

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Post #: 148

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/16/2007 3:04:26 PM

Alumbrado

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The individual you quote is well aware of in which threads and pages he repeatedly denied the Final Solution, and death squads, and declarations of total genocide against the Jews, etc. In the face of cites to the contrary, he ignored them, and proclaimed that nothing relevant to today's cycle of violence happened against the Jews prior to their move to Israel.

He has resorted to this 'demand' before, and again, after the links were provided, ignored them... If his memory is that short, or that spotty, he just needs to see a doctor.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 8/16/2007 3:10:53 PM >

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 149

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/16/2007 9:06:05 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

The individual you quote is well aware of in which threads and pages he repeatedly denied the Final Solution, and death squads, and declarations of total genocide against the Jews, etc. In the face of cites to the contrary, he ignored them, and proclaimed that nothing relevant to today's cycle of violence happened against the Jews prior to their move to Israel.

He has resorted to this 'demand' before, and again, after the links were provided, ignored them... If his memory is that short, or that spotty, he just needs to see a doctor.

If he denied that the Holocaust on other threads, then I missed it. If he, or anyone for that matter, denied that the Holocaust ever happened then I just go back to my original opinion on the matter - "now tell me that grass isn't green."

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Post #: 150

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/16/2007 11:56:57 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Before you dodge too far, I'm still waiting for you to point out in which thread and on which page I denied the holocaust.

Are you directing this at Alumbrado or me? I'm going to presume me.

In reply, I've never accused you of denying the Holocaust and I don't know what I've written that would make you presume such. I'll try to clairify again. NorthernGent's questioning of the number of people killed in the Holocaust seemed to be taken by some (judging by the tone of their responses) that he was denying the Holocaust ever happened at all. I just wanted to put in my two cents in hopes of putting the kibosh on such a silly notion before the discussion devolved any further.

Alumbrado. He is a liar and can't face the fact that I am asking him for proof of his accussation. One assumes that if he read what he claims he should be able to point it out to everyone on CM.

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Post #: 151

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/17/2007 12:03:10 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

The individual you quote is well aware of in which threads and pages he repeatedly denied the Final Solution, and death squads, and declarations of total genocide against the Jews, etc. In the face of cites to the contrary, he ignored them, and proclaimed that nothing relevant to today's cycle of violence happened against the Jews prior to their move to Israel.

He has resorted to this 'demand' before, and again, after the links were provided, ignored them... If his memory is that short, or that spotty, he just needs to see a doctor.

No I do not know in which threads and on which pages I am supposed to have said what you claim. As far as I am concerned you are a liar. I would like like you to point out to everyone on CM what I am supposed to have said.

The fact you don't point out my denial of the holocaust is because you can't point out my denial because I didn't make one. I can only assume that because you won't retract your accussation that you made it out of spite and that tyou are a liar and a fantasist. Anyone with any decency who made such an accuaation in a fit of peak would have apologized.

He has resorted to this 'demand' before, and again, after the links were provided, ignored them... If his memory is that short, or that spotty, he just needs to see a doctor.

This is also a bare faced lie. I have never mentioned apology to anyone before this posting. I've been asking you to point out where I said what you claim I said. You can't and therefore I can only assume you lying about what people said is not through a rush of blood in an argument but is down to you approving of lying about people to win arguments.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/17/2007 12:12:13 AM >

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Post #: 152

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/17/2007 2:09:46 AM

meatcleaver

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You may consider my ideas and views as flawed and absurd and you may attack them as robustly as you care. Where you have crossed the line is that you LIED to attack my character.

You will never find on CM or anywhere else a denial of the holocaust by me.

You will not find on CM or anywhere else, my claiming that Israel doesn't have a right to exist.

What you will find is that in my opinion that when the Christian and muslim Arabs rejected the agreement to the partition of Trans-Jordania the zionists should have re-entered negotiations and not set up the Israeli state through acts of terrorism which is the reason there is still conflict in the ME today. I could post several quotes of Ben Gurion to support my opinion.

I have said that the west turning a blind eye to Israeli crimes is to do with European guilt for the holocaust and that the west shouldn't be punishing the Palestinians for something the Germans and other Europeans did.

I challenge you or anyone else to find a statement made by me denying the holocaust.

When you eventually realise you are wrong (though I think you wilfully lied rather that got your facts wrong) perhaps you will be man enough to apologize.

If you accepted you got it wrong in the first place this would have quietly gone away and no one would have noticed it.

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Post #: 153

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/17/2007 2:43:47 AM

meatcleaver

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A couple of quotes by Ben Gurion for you.

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”

“Even if they admit and not all of them do that our immigration brings material blessing to the land, [t]hey say and from the Arab viewpoint I think rightly so `None of your honey and none of your sting.` ”

Still waiting for you to point out my denial of the holocaust.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/17/2007 2:44:50 AM >

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Post #: 154

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/17/2007 4:01:21 AM

seeksfemslave

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Many Americans just dont like and seem not to want accept this kind of thing MC.
True as it undoubtedly is.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 155

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/17/2007 4:34:25 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Many Americans just dont like and seem not to want accept this kind of thing MC.
True as it undoubtedly is.

True seeks but for someone to say someone denied the holocaust because they refuse to see any truth other than the myth that justifies their national self interest is beyond the pale.

Not only did Alumbrado lie about what I said, he exacerbated the lie by posting this...

The individual you quote is well aware of in which threads and pages he repeatedly denied the Final Solution, and death squads, and declarations of total genocide against the Jews, etc. In the face of cites to the contrary, he ignored them, and proclaimed that nothing relevant to today's cycle of violence happened against the Jews prior to their move to Israel.

YOU ARE A LIAR ALUMBRADO AND I WANT AS MANY PEOPLE TO SEE WHAT I THINK OF YOU BEFORE I GET BANNED FOR CALLING YOU THE BARE FACED LIAR THAT YOU ARE.

No doubt my posts will get pulled and yours will be left up giving the impression you must be right because I never responded to you.

WELL I HAVE RESPONDED TO YOU, YOU LIAR!!!!

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/17/2007 4:37:28 AM >

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Post #: 156

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/17/2007 5:31:40 AM

caitlyn

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Come now meatcleaver ... don't you know that for some here, you are the accused and it's up to you to prove you are innocent.

It's a new philosophy, called Swiftyism.

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Post #: 157

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/17/2007 6:25:52 AM

pahunkboy

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without it - we would be speaking German or Japanese. They were set on world domination!

No regrets here.

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Post #: 158

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/17/2007 7:46:22 AM

Marc2b

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You know, my grandparents in their final years would often be talking to each other unaware that they were having two totally different conversations – they couldn’t hear so well, you understand. I’m beginning to feel like I’m in the middle of that.

I’m willing to take some of the responsibility, especially if it’s around 4:20 in the afternoon when, for some reason, my short term memory plays tricks on me (but man, do those grand philosophical vistas open up to me – the insights, ohhhhhhh, the insights).

I reviewed this thread, again, and don’t find any out and out accusations of Holocaust denial (although several people seemed to imply it and only one came right out and asked it). It seems that this thread has become an argument carried over from other threads. It happens.

For the record, I was focusing on NorthernGent’s comments and people’s reaction to them. As for meatcleaver versus Alumbrado, well, I’m going to slip off to the side and let them slug it out.

I would like to point out, however, that this thread is a great example of what I like to call "following the scripts." A linear progression of assumptions people make about others based upon a single statement. If he believes A then he probably believes B which means he must also believe C, D, and E and anyone who believes E is an asshole.

Example: hmmmm, NorthernGent is questioning the numbers who died in the Holocaust.... he must be anti-Semitic.... which means he probably believes the Holocaust didn’t happen.... which makes him a nazi!... which makes him a total fucking asshole!

Now, I’m just using NorthernGent and his comments as an example, I don’t know the guy well enough to declare him an official TFA, but that is how the process works. Once again, I make no claim to being immune to this process myself – but I do try to catch myself in it.

So where does that leave us? Same place we’ve always been, I guess.

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Post #: 159

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 8/17/2007 7:56:21 AM

Marc2b

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Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

Come now meatcleaver ... don't you know that for some here, you are the accused and it's up to you to prove you are innocent.

It's a new philosophy, called Swiftyism.

"Swiftyism?"

That’s a sarcastic reference to the Swift Boat Veterans... which means she didn’t believe them... which means she supported John Kerry... which means she’s a liberal... which means she hates America!

Why, I bet she probably stays home at night to literally shit on the American flag while masturbating to pictures of Michael Moore!

I always knew you were a total fucking asshole caitlyn! Thanks for proving it to me! Don’t bother trying to defend yourself, the evidence speaks for itself!

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Post #: 160

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