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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 6:25:54 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But we had alot better reason to go into Iraq than Viet Nam



Yes and no, Termyn8or.

One of the beliefs at the time we involved ourselves in Iraq was a fear on the part of the powers that be that
when the Red steamroller conquered most of mainland Asia, a Communist (Chinese) presence in Vietnam would
threaten the oil shipping routes where they had one oil tanker per mile or so running between the middle east and
Japan.

In other words, both Iraq and Vietnam were about oil.  Or to be more specific, both Iraq and Vietnam were about access and control over our energy.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 6:28:05 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		the world  was so much easier to understand during the cold war.

maybe Hillary can save us?

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 6:48:57 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		Ho or Giap, both had their own agendas of undescribable foundations of fascism. Categories of which have not been acurately tabulated as far as I know.  It is still a conflict of where to place them in 'acurate history'.

But, this was a nice article.

Shcolar works kinda hard to post in here, anything worthy is pay article pft.

best I can do, under short notice.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EH20Ak04.html

"But what about Saddam's tapes inciting a jihad against the Americans? Saddam is no Ho Chi Minh - a legitimate leader of a national-liberation struggle. There is not a lot of Saddam nostalgia in Iraq. And former army officials are not nostalgic either - or over-optimistic, for that matter, about the success of the guerrillas. They know that the Iraqi people once again will be the greatest victims - as the Americans are obsessed with their own, not the Iraqi people's, security. But these former officials are ready to join the resistance anyway."

k gotta nap, dreams of men in uniform. Mmmmm

< Message edited by came4U -- 8/23/2007 7:07:34 AM >

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 7:18:24 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

Ho or Giap, both had their own agendas of undescribable foundations of fascism. Categories of which have not been acurately tabulated as far as I know.  It is still a conflict of where to place them in 'acurate history'.

Is it your position that socialism and fascism are the same?

k gotta nap, dreams of men in uniform. Mmmmm
I will send you a pic...I used to be a garbage collector

(in reply to came4U)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 7:36:05 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

So if we leave, our battles with them will not end.


If we stay, our battles with them will not end.

So why stay?

Why even FEAR these 2nd rate terrorists? They only succeeded on 9/11 because the US Sheep OBEYED the Federal Government's instructions, namely, "Cooperate with Hijackers".

Dumbest Advice Ever. Good thing the folks on Flight 93 pulled their heads out of their ass and DISOBEYED THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, and rose to the defense of their airplane, taking the hijackers down with them.

So, the solution isn't to trash other countries. The solution is the be BRAVE ENOUGH to live with the threat, and being BRAVE ENOUGH to do what needs doing YOURSELF ( IF, and that's a BIG IF anything *needs* doing... )

If you want a War on Al Queda, CONGRESS MUST DECLARE IT. Lying to obtain the AUMF-Iraq wasn't the way to do it... AND TAINTED THE EFFORT FOREVER. Since it was started with Evil lies, it can NEVER be Good.

Of course, that Bush would pursue a Foreign Policy founded on being a Pussy isn't really a surprise.

But I'm sorta surprised with how many other Pussies who go along with him.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 7:38:10 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

Who said we are in charge of who has a democracy or not?

ohh I get it..

We are in charge of deciding that because we know it all and democracy is a perfect system. Gottcha.


And if you want to live in a dictatorship, be my guest... There are plenty of countries out there to choose from if that's your style.


What Article and Section is "Regime Change" delegated to the Constitution?

It goes COMPLETELY against the only permissible reason for bringing the Republic to War so clearly articulated by Lincoln at Gettysburg.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 9:16:48 AM   
came4U


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quote:

Is it your position that socialism and fascism are the same?


Thomspson:

for one, your font is HUGEEEEEEEE

second, you sure love to argue too.

and NO.

did you read that?

I said 'both had their own agendas of undescribable foundations of fascism'

you can call anyone a socialist that YOU want, I decide what category (again using real documents, real articles of study) I put a hun-like leader into.


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 11:16:20 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		"We should not involve ourselves in foreign entanglements."

                      - George Washington-

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 11:38:34 AM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		Where did anyone get the idea that Bush knows anything about the facts or reality of either war?

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 11:47:37 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Most smart people and many many liberals predicted how Bush's invasion of Iraq would go.  There were things we didn't predict like turning the entire Baath party against us or the entire army when we fired them all.  Nobody predicted the war plan would be so skimpy on men that they wouldn't bother to secure the munitions dumps and instead let them be looted by the insurgents.  Nobody predicted that Bush would be blind to the insurgency the rest of us clearly watched for almost two years.  Nobody predicted Bush would be surprised that Iran would meddle.  Basically nobody predicted how completely incompetent and probably treasonous Bush has been in running this occupation.

The part I didn't see and neither did many others is that he would fuck up Iraq so badly that it just might trigger a religious war between the Sunni and Shia and causing untold chaos in the Middle East.  That sort of stupidity we just didn't expect.

If Bush was a brain surgeon he would start by ripping out the toenails of his patients and then scratch his head wondering why they weren't getting better.  When that didn't work he would keep cutting, starting at the feet until he had victory.  Sure makes for a lot of blood and dead people with nothing to show for it.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 2:12:34 PM   
SuzanneKneeling


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Where Iraq is different is that is also another insurgent group that IS targetting the US directly and is mostly being lead by Al-Queda. And Al-Queda is a declared and true enemy that has attacked the United States on several occasions. Al-Queda also does not belong in Iraq. They were never in Iraq. They, like the US, is a foreign entity using Iraq as a battlefield. So if we leave, our battles with them will not end.


Cyberdude, from what I have read, there are two dangerous misconceptions in your otherwise thoughtful post. The faction "Al-Queda in Iraq" is a largely homegrown Iraqi entity, and their alliance/identification with the larger, loosely-organized terrorist group that attacked us on 9/11 is solely limited to opposing our occupation of Iraq. (Imagine - Iraqis who have taken exception to foreigners invading their country and causing chaos, destruction and death. I don't imagine any American would be so unwelcoming to violent invaders. That would make us "terrorists", after all.) There are foreign fighters in Iraq, but they make up only 5-10% of the "insurgency".

Of course, that doesn't stop our treasonously deceitful Commander in Chief from lying to the country on a daily basis. He keeps referring to "fighting the terrorists there so that we do not have to fight them here", as if these resistance groups have Topeka next on their list. Sadly, a large portion of the FauxNews viewership are still buying this line.

Iraq has nothing to do with our war on terrorism.

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 2:29:52 PM   
SuzanneKneeling


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Status: offline 		CL, you left one similarity off your list, which many Americans still aren't aware of. The country was ushered into both wars on the basis of presidential lies. Vietnam was partially "justified" using the fabricated "Gulf of Tonkin" incident. And Iraq... well, I hope that one goes without saying by now.

Lesson (are we even capable of learning lessons?): When a president tells you that we have to start a war because of X, Y and Z, it is your duty as a citizen of a democracy to question critically the veracity and relevance of X, Y and Z. It is unpatriotic NOT to.

Remember that despite being clothed in a long black limosine and a fancy white house listed on the historical registry, our president is a human being. He is not "the country". He may have his own agenda which is very different from ours. In this case, the occupant of the Oval Office happened to be a front for the oil industry. This grand, bloody and expensive gambit to establish for themselves favorable crude oil contracts with an installed government friendly to their interests looks like it is blowing up in their faces. Of course, they will lose next to nothing from the attempt. They've been leverageing it with taxpayer money, our banked international goodwill, and the lives of honorable soldiers who thought (and still think in many case) they are "defending the country". I would say "shame on them" for doing that, except that they are corporations which have no morals or conscience, so it's a bit pointless. Instead I have to say "shame on my fellow countrymen/women" for letting them do it.

Will we learn anything from this?

(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 3:09:22 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Suzanne, correct.
We need to get big business out of our government!
Iraq's oil will go on the world market anyway.
Whether it's Royal Dutch Shell or Exxon/Mobil that pumps it out of the ground is of no concern to me.
I have both companies' gas credit cards.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)
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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 3:33:06 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Is it your position that socialism and fascism are the same?



While socialism seems the more honourable in concept, both systems are generally impossed on people, resulting in the leaders getting richer.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 5:09:52 PM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

quote:

Is it your position that socialism and fascism are the same?


Thomspson:

for one, your font is HUGEEEEEEEE

came4u:
Your font is so smmmmmmmmmmmmalllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.

second, you sure love to argue too.
So far I have not argued about anything.  I have only asked for clarification of your position.

and NO.

did you read that?

I said 'both had their own agendas of undescribable foundations of fascism'
What is the particular undescribable foundation of fascism you find in socialism?

you can call anyone a socialist that YOU want, I decide what category (again using real documents, real articles of study) I put a hun-like leader into.
Which documents are you speaking of?



(in reply to came4U)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 5:26:23 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Is it your position that socialism and fascism are the same?



While socialism seems the more honourable in concept, both systems are generally impossed on people, resulting in the leaders getting richer.


Politesub:
Which system (of the many) is not imposed on the people, resulting in the leaders getting richer.
The text books I have read seem to indicate some significant differences between socialism and fascism.  That some might manipulate either system for their own aggrandizement would not surprise me.
I do find it interesting that some have a "knee jerk" reaction to the word socialism and feel compelled to link it with emotionally charged words like fascism.
One of the reasons the founders of our country gave for committing treason was "to promote the general welfare".  This country was not founded so that the rich could exploit the not rich.  Socialism is social responsibility...if one chooses to define socialism as fascism or equate the goals of a society to the subjugation of that society by the rich and powerful then I would submit that they are simply engaging in a form of intellectual masturbation.
thompson

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 5:28:34 PM   
cloudboy


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Status: offline 		The difference between the IRAQ an Vietnam wars is we cannot Napalm the cities to find the guerilla resistance. On the upside, none of our soldiers has to muck through a tunnel system laced with traps and bugs.

In Vietnam, our enemy was the Commnists: a godless, rational, nationalist, determined people.

(Otherwise known as the Northern Alliance in Afganistan --- who while with the Soviets we opposed --- but who while against the Taliban we supported.)

In Iraq our enemy is Religious: fannatical, somewhat irrational, quasis nationalist, and determined.

(Who while against the Soviets we supported, who while against the USA we opposed.)

Its much harder to negotiate in our IRAQ situation, because we're viewed as SATANIC.

-------

Bush, as events and history have proven, is detached from reality. Futhermore, he's surrounded by incompetents.

Hence, his rhetoric and description of what's happening cannot be trusted. His administration has thumbed its nose at the public, our allies, the UN, the 9-11 commission, Richard Clark, and the CIA.

As Steven Colbert has pointed out, Bush and Co. are allergic and aversive to facts and regard those concerned with facts as part of the radical and destabilizing FACTINISTA.

For us, it all means we live in the Bizarro world of political irreality.

Good luck figuring it all out.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/23/2007 5:36:46 PM >

(in reply to krikket)
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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 5:40:12 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		We in the west have democracies, which by and large have a reasonable, but still not flawless, voting system. My point is that many Countires dont have that right, and wether they are looked upon as socialists or facists, for the average citizen, the result is the same.
I never said both were the same, nor did i have a knee jerk reaction. I simply pointed out an inescapable fact.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 6:02:47 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		"One of the reasons the founders of our country gave for committing treason was "to promote the general welfare".  This country was not founded so that the rich could exploit the not rich.  Socialism is social responsibility...if one chooses to define socialism as fascism or equate the goals of a society to the subjugation of that society by the rich and powerful then I would submit that they are simply engaging in a form of intellectual masturbation.
thompson "

actually you might want to read the Declaration of Independnace, which sums up the reasons for the revolt against the crown...Promoting the general welfare is not part of it, that is from the constitution written 20 years after the fact.

One of the main reasons that people link socialism and facism is that the pre eminent facist of all time Hitler, called his facism ...National Socialism.  NAZI is an acronym for National Socialism.  Facism is a bizzare off shoot of Socialism. 

That you think the definiton of Socialism is "social responsibility" speaks volumes...

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/23/2007 6:43:06 PM   
farglebargle


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Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

We in the west have democracies, which by and large have a reasonable, but still not flawless, voting system.


"Voting" is what the Boss Class lets us niggers do, so that we don't realize how fucked we're getting and have a revolution.

"Voting", as Emma Goldman told us, would be unlawful if it could actually effect change.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 40
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