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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/25/2007 4:57:29 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Meatclever i agree with your two definitions in the broad sense. I would suspect though that a large majority of British people, myself included, fall somewhere between the two ideals.



As always Politesub, the extremes of any ideology are dangerous and taking the best and leaving the rest is often the best course. I would call myself a socialist because my sympathies are broadly in that direction but there is a lot of socialist ideology I wouldn't go along with. My guess is that most of us steer a course, to varying degrees, close to the centre, whether it be on the left or right of centre.

Though it is typical in arguments for people to be accused of being on the extreme when really they are just the other side of centre.

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/25/2007 7:43:06 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Getting back to the OP. I dont see the two situations being the same. In Vietnam America had taken the side of the South, and tried to stop that falling to the North. In Iraq the idea was just to depose Saddam with no real thought about what happens next.



In Vietnam, there was no North or South, until after Western politicians had decided that the leader of the entire country was a threat, so there is that similarity.  Taking sides with the 'good' Vietnamese was just hype.


After the war with the French, the Vietnamese and France agreed to a peace treaty. This was the Geneva conference, and they decided to split the country in two at the 17th parallel until the UN could supervise nationwide elections whe following year. Both parties were represented and signed the agreement.
Hence north and south.


Okie - dokie then...

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/25/2007 9:43:29 AM   
luckydog1


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No Meat they are simply 2 forms of Socialism, International and National.  You could also have a religous based socialism, or a monarchial type of Socialism.  You could also have nationalist capitalism vs international capitalism .  Hitler's National Socialist Government, did most of  the things you call socialism, free schools, national health care, public transport, ect.  Socialism is a form of political economy.  I am fully aware that most socialists opposed hitler very much, of course that was after he attacked the USSR, before he had a treaty with them and had divided eastern Europe for exploitation.

The full name of the party was the National Socialist German Workers Party...Nazi is an acronym for National Socialist.

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/25/2007 11:24:59 AM   
RacerJim


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"For the first time in modern history, the outcome of a war was determined not on the battlefield but on the printed page and, above all, on the television screen."-- Robert Elegant, the Los Angeles Times.

Mr. Elegant was, of course, referring to Walter Cronkite's infamous CBS TV Evening News 'We Are Mired in a Stalemate' broadcast on February 27 1968 which was based upon his recent two-week visit to South Vietnam.
 
CBS TV EVENING NEWS - FEBRUARY 27, 1968
(Walter Cronkite - Anchor)
"Tonight, back in more familiar surroundings in New York, we'd like to sum up our findings in Vietnam, an analysis that must be speculative, personal, subjective. Who won and who lost in the great Tet offensive against the cities? I'm not sure. The Vietcong did not win by a knockout, but neither did we. The referees of history may make it a draw. Another standoff may be coming in the big battles expected south of the Demilitarized Zone. Khesanh could well fall, with a terrible loss in American lives, prestige and morale, and this is a tragedy of our stubbornness there; but the bastion no longer is a key to the rest of the northern regions, and it is doubtful that the American forces can be defeated across the breadth of the DMZ with any substantial loss of ground. Another standoff. On the political front, past performance gives no confidence that the Vietnamese government can cope with its problems, now compounded by the attack on the cities. It may not fall, it may hold on, but it probably won't show the dynamic qualities demanded of this young nation. Another standoff.
 
We have been too often disappointed by the optimism of the American leaders, both in Vietnam and Washington, to have faith any longer in the silver linings they find in the darkest clouds. They may be right, that Hanoi's winter-spring offensive has been forced by the Communist realization that they could not win the longer war of attrition, and that the Communists hope that any success in the offensive will improve their position for eventual negotiations. It would improve their position, and it would also require our realization, that we should have had all along, that any negotiations must be that -- negotiations, not the dictation of peace terms. For it seems now more certain than ever that the bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a stalemate. This summer's almost certain standoff will either end in real give-and-take negotiations or terrible escalation; and for every means we have to escalate, the enemy can match us, and that applies to invasion of the North, the use of nuclear weapons, or the mere commitment of one hundred, or two hundred, or three hundred thousand more American troops to the battle. And with each escalation, the world comes closer to the brink of cosmic disaster.
 
To say that we are closer to victory today is to believe, in the face of the evidence, the optimists who have been wrong in the past. To suggest we are on the edge of defeat is to yield to unreasonable pessimism. To say that we are mired in stalemate seems the only realistic, yet unsatisfactory, conclusion. On the off chance that military and political analysts are right, in the next few months we must test the enemy's intentions, in case this is indeed his last big gasp before negotiations. But it is increasingly clear to this reporter that the only rational way out then will be to negotiate, not as victors, but as an honorable people who lived up to their pledge to defend democracy, and did the best they could.
 
This is Walter Cronkite. Good night."
 
Cronkite's broadcast reportedly prompted then President Lyndon B. Johnson (D) to privately opine "If I've lost Cronkite, I've lost middle-America.", and was followed shortly thereafter with similiar critiques from the editors and opinion-makers at Time and Life magazines as well as the New York Times, the Los Angles Times and the Washington Post newspapers - for the first time making it not only acceptable but, moreover, fashionable for revered mainstream-media in America to oppose a war America was currently engaged in. In the midst of the ever-increasing anti-war sentiment President Johnson's approval rating vis-a-vis the Vietnam War dropped to 20 percent, he had concluded that the war was unwinnable, and he announced he would not run for re-election.
POST-WAR MEMOIRS OF GENERAL VO NGUYEN GIAP 
(NVA's Commanding General during the Vietnam War)
"We were completely and totally amazed by Walter Cronkite's broadcast. Tet was a massive failure for us and we were ready to surrender unconditionally. Cronkite's broadcast and the aftermath convinced us that if we perservered one more hour, day, week, year we would eventually win the war on the political battlefield in America." 
 
The Democratic Party was in control of  Congress for the entirety of the Vietnam War -- from the day President Harry S. Truman (D) sent the first U.S. military advisors to Vietnam, through the four years President Lyndon B. Johnson (D) increased the number of U.S. combat forces in Vietnam from about 20,000 (1964) to almost 500,000 (1968), to the day President Gerald R. Ford pulled the last of our troops out of Vietnam -- and never publically questioned, much less publically voiced opposition to, the Vietnam War. That is, not until it was in their political interest to do so -- the imminent Presidential election.
 
And so it is today, again.

"The aftermath of the collapse of American power in Vietnam-and how they ran and left their agents-is noteworthy. Because of that, we must be ready starting now, before events overtake us, and before we are surprised by the conspiracies of the Americans and the United Nations and their plans to fill the void behind them...." -- Letter from Al-Zawahiri to Al-Zarkawi  

 

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/25/2007 11:54:44 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

No Meat they are simply 2 forms of Socialism, International and National.  You could also have a religous based socialism, or a monarchial type of Socialism.  You could also have nationalist capitalism vs international capitalism .  Hitler's National Socialist Government, did most of  the things you call socialism, free schools, national health care, public transport, ect.  Socialism is a form of political economy.  I am fully aware that most socialists opposed hitler very much, of course that was after he attacked the USSR, before he had a treaty with them and had divided eastern Europe for exploitation.

The full name of the party was the National Socialist German Workers Party...Nazi is an acronym for National Socialist.


The USA has free schools and public transport, though I accept the public transport is mostly inadequate. The US also has an ongoing discussion about a universal healthcare system. Is the US socialist or national socialist? Nah, it's recognized as the most capitalist country in the free world. Economics is only part of the equation.

Most socialists were against the NAZIs well before Hitler attacked the USSR because 'national socialism' is an anathema to socialists. Think back to the Spanish civil war, Hitler supported the fascists and socialists volunteers came from all over the world to fight for the republic and many socialists were disgusted with the stance of the Communist party with its Machiavellian games. Socialism and National Socialism are two are completely different philosophies but if you want to call them the same, that is for you.


_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/25/2007 2:19:35 PM   
NorthernGent


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It's desperate. The great man failed to mention that a) the Khmer Rouge had nothing whatsoever to do with the American withdrawal and b) the North Vietnamese intervened in Cambodia.

Bush and associates are preying on man's base instincts: pride and fear.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/25/2007 2:46:27 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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greetings jimini,

There are marked differences between the two, but the insurgency aspect of both is very glaring. Laying current politics aside, one must understand the phases of an insurgency campaign, before one engages the enemy, and our military commanders (Bush, Joint Chiefs, etc) seemed to have ignored that when they first went in. Insurgency must be supported by a certain amount of the public to be successful. The US dismantled everything Iraq had that could have rooted alot of this out in the beginning. At that point the insurgents have phase one down. Now phase two has to do with causing more deaths than the public is willing to stomach, and this has occured among the US and Iraqi people. At this point someone got a clue, with the surge but I believe too late. The reason for a surge, is that when there is a reduction in soldiers, phase three is for the insurgents to do a push, to cause more bloodshed, to convince the invader that to withdraw is the correct way to go.

That is it in a very basic form, with a few comments thrown in. The comparisson to Vietnam in the stages is very apt, and if we do pull out there will likely be alot more violence, because of the culture. Saddam knew this, and is why only a ruthless dictator could maintain order there. we could have done it, but no one would have had the stomach for it. We can still fight the insurgency by use of technology and alot less manpower, but not keep peace and prevent an all out civil war.

Orion 


quote:

ORIGINAL: krikket

Ok, i need some help here from those have a better grasp of politics and know more about war than i do. 

In tonight's news, I heard part of Bush's speech at a VFW (i think) meeting, saying that if we withdrew from Iraq it would be like Viet Nam all over again, i.e., the collapse of a US supported government and thousands kills by the North Viet Nam government for siding with the US.  I almost fell outta my seat. (This wasn't the firs time I've heard the same arguments for staying that I heard back in the 60s and 70s of why we had to remain in Nam.  

I admit I have a pro-troop mindset (I'm a military brat, my ex is a former Marine [see i do remember how to say it..lol], i was a flower child in the late 60s and i'm against the war in Iraq.)  Another reason i'm probably so incredulous is that one of the best, most rewarding and heart wrenching jobs I ever had was the 3 years I worked at the USO in Memphis.  I tasted the fear of young men and women going off to an unpopular (and probably un-windable) war, and I attended more memorials that I would have given anything in the world not to be there, but wouldn't have missed saying a final goodbye to either.  I saw the effects on the men and women who returned home, those embarrassed to say where they'd been the previous 12-18 months, those who were spit on, those who suffered from PTSD  and/or badly injured.  i've held on tightly to a young man as he sobbed because his daddy was now a POW, held the hand of a young widow and loved and bounced kids on my knee who's father would forever be a picture and a flag in frames. 

I know I can't look at this situation rationally or clearly, so maybe someone can explain to me how Nam is related to Iraq and how we "know" that Al Quada thinks that our leaving Nam shows them what "wimps" the US is when we didn't win. 

My only hope now is that our future memorial honoring the Iraq vets won't have nearly as many names as the Nam wall does.  I know many names that are up on that wall, more names that should be on there, and damn-it I don't want anyone to have to compare the number of names on the Iraq memorial (and there darn well better be one) to the Viet Nam memorial.

Thanks for the help.

jimini



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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/25/2007 11:04:02 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Cleaver,

Isn't it amazing how many times you can correct some people and it just doesn't phase them or shake their beliefs?  Of course they don't relize that what they hold are ONLY beliefs as opposed to facts.

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/25/2007 11:19:50 PM   
littlesarbonn


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I just watched the movie The Fog of War, a documentary about Rober McNamara, and let's just say that I highly recommend it to you if you're trying to figure out how to understand the similarities and differences between Iraq and Vietnam. It was also very interesting to see the perspective of someone who is so flawed yet still manages to excuse his behavior by thinking that he has "figured it all out now" that somehow he was seeing clearly when things got completely out of control.

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/26/2007 12:36:38 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Say, Firmhand, where's Bush's approval rating these days?  You used to give us regular updates.

Edited to add: High 20's, low 30's.  Basically where it's been all year.

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm


As I pointed out to him on another thread, LaM, it takes a big man to say he is right, it takes an even bigger
man to say he is wrong.

Wrong, in this sentence, would be synonymous with anything written (in support of his policies) by somebody who seems to be one of AnencephalyBoys biggest cheerleaders.

I guess it just is not working out as well as the neo-cons and dittoheads had hoped it would.

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/26/2007 7:31:25 PM   
dcnovice


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I'm coming late to the discussion, sorry.

I was absolutely flabbergasted by Bush's Iraq=Vietnam equation. If I were a speechwriter or political strategist, absolutely the last word I would introduce into the Iraq debate is "Vietnam." It truly boggles my mind that he thought a Vietnam analogy would work as an argument for the war.

My favroite comment on all this was a cartoon by Ben Sargent. He showed a disabled vet watching TV. The TV screen shows GWB, saying "I could have won the Vietnam War." The vet replies, "You would have had to show up first."

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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/27/2007 3:54:36 AM   
Politesub53


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Good point dcnovice..... You would have thought that given his performance during the Vietnam war, plus the effect it had on America as a whole, that it would be the last analogy he would use.
It was more like an anal-ogy

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/27/2007 6:27:27 AM   
Sinergy


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Anybody else remember Bush's speech where he stated unequivically that his overwhelming need to invade Iraq was not in any way, shape, or form, appropriate to be compared to US Involvement in Viet Nam?

There was a machine built by the Maximegalon Institute for Slowly Working Out the Painfullly Obvious.  This machine was told to like herring sandwiches.  It was given a scoop which would drop anything that picked up.
It was given a neural net to learn with.  It was given a herring sandwich.  It tried to pick up the herring sandwich.  It dropped the herring sandwich.  Millions of iterations later, it was able to develop emotions like frustration, anger, annoyance, disgust, etc.

Kinda like the non-neocon parts of the American public.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/27/2007 7:42:50 AM   
SimplyMichael


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This is Bush's last gasp.  He realizes that many of his followers still believe if we dropped more bombs, if we had killed more Vietnamese that we would have somehow "won" in Vietnam.  They blame the "liberals" for losing that war.  They just can't grasp you can't "win" a war when the other side is the people. 

When you step back and look at it, coming from the sons and daughters of the people who fought England for independence, the whole argument seems deeply strange.  Perhaps they are all decended from Torries and it is genetic or something?

So, he is tying Iraq to Vietnam as a last gasp way of rallying his horde of idiots and cowards who prefer saluting the flag as an empty symbol rather than protecting the constitution and the messy freedoms it enshrines.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 8/27/2007 7:48:35 AM >

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/29/2007 3:31:32 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
POST-WAR MEMOIRS OF GENERAL VO NGUYEN GIAP 
(NVA's Commanding General during the Vietnam War)
"We were completely and totally amazed by Walter Cronkite's broadcast. Tet was a massive failure for us and we were ready to surrender unconditionally. Cronkite's broadcast and the aftermath convinced us that if we perservered one more hour, day, week, year we would eventually win the war on the political battlefield in America."  


RacerJim:
I was unable to substantiate this quote...could you help us out a bit with a chapter and page number?
thompson

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/29/2007 6:24:06 PM   
krikket


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I want to thank everyone who wrote -- I've read every post (most more than once).  I adore the people who share themselves, giving their time and talent on the forums here on CM, no matter what the topic, or what "side" anyone is on.  I'm not even going to try to comment on the individual posts, but I do want to thank y'all for the knowledge you've shared, the posts that made me laugh, and those that made me think and ponder and wonder.  Every post has helped..and I thank y'all for that as well.

Huggles and cheers,
jimini



_____________________________

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to bloom."

by A. Nin



When your heart speaks take good notes.





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