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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 9:28:53 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

Hitler made the corparations and bussiness pay fair wages and do what the Government wanted.


Dude,

I don't know what comic book you get your history from but Germany under the Nazis was run by and for profit.  Setting aside the slave labor they used during the war, WE were more socialist during WWII than Germany was.  Hitler, like Bush acted as if he was one of the common men and Bush like Hitler actually grew up in Kennebunkport, THE richest of the rich communities in this country and has a "ranch" of how many hundreds of acres?  How many communists did the Nazis murder and how many did they send to the death camps? 

Communist countries always had Democracy in their name...does that mean they are a democracy?  When the poor fucking Palestinians ELECTED Hammas, what did we do?  We fucked them for actually voting!

Sometimes I wonder how Fox News can be so fucking stupid and obvious with their propaganda, I mean I would have seen through it when I was a child and then someone reminds me of who it works on.

Amazing.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 9:29:43 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		The Fasces was also the symbol used by Mussolini s party. I think it goes back to Roman magistrates but i dont know the reason why.


Getting back to the OP. I dont see the two situations being the same. In Vietnam America had taken the side of the South, and tried to stop that falling to the North. In Iraq the idea was just to depose Saddam with no real thought about what happens next.

What both situations have in Common is this, once in, it`s difficult to get out with out leaving either a power struggle or revenge attacks to take place once you have departed.

The only alternative would be to strenghten your forces, to a point where that could contain any insurgents. Sadly that will only increase the long term problems in my opinion.

Someone screwed up bigtime as Saddam had little time for islamic extremists, and no time for Bin Laden.

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 10:04:45 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Micheal so you are saying hitler grew up in Kenebukport?  That is really insane.  Hitler did not come from a rich family.  Hitler did allow people running bussiness to make money, as long as they obeyed him, and thier work enhanced the stature of the State..  Bussiness leaders who defied him, ended up in the camps.  Hitler did not pander to corparations for contributions, he told them what to do or else.

A few communist countries called them selves "Peoples Democracies", using a specific modifyier to distingush from a plain old "democracy"  Most called themselves "Peoples Republics" or "Socialist Republics".

Hitler got full employment, at good wages, for the good loyal german people.  His goal was  Socialism only for the German nation, with the others as slaves.  It was a bizzare offshoot of socialism.  Just for his nation.

If the people want to follow Hamas, they get to go where Hamas leads them...Looks like a dumb choice to me, but it is thiers to make.

After your recent comments on how the Republicans kept us out of WW2, while the Dems had a filibuster proof majority in both houses, andFDR campainged successfully on keeping the US out of the war, it is clear who is using a comic book view of history here.  It truly is amazing...

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 10:20:06 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Getting back to the OP. I dont see the two situations being the same. In Vietnam America had taken the side of the South, and tried to stop that falling to the North. In Iraq the idea was just to depose Saddam with no real thought about what happens next.



In Vietnam, there was no North or South, until after Western politicians had decided that the leader of the entire country was a threat, so there is that similarity.  Taking sides with the 'good' Vietnamese was just hype.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 10:37:58 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		You can hardly expect our nation to herald that we are; 'backing the bad boys this time.'

LOL

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 10:40:55 AM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		If I’ve told you people once I’ve told you a thousand times it’s NAM! Not Viet Nam.

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∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 10:43:10 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		'The Nam', actually.


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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 10:43:57 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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Status: offline 		I remember when it was french indo-china.

The Ugly American

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 10:44:54 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		.........er.........ok Alumbrado, try this......

"Fasces (a plurale tantum, from the Latin word fascis, meaning "bundle"[1]) symbolise summary power and jurisdiction, and/or "strength through unity."[2]
The traditional Roman fasces consisted of a bundle of birch rods tied together with a red ribbon as a cylinder. In wartime they were wrapped around an axe. One interpretation of the symbolism suggests that despite the fragility of each independent single rod, as a bundle they exhibit strength.
Numerous governments and other authorities have used the image of the fasces as a symbol of power since the end of the Roman Empire. Italian fascism, which derives its name from the fasces, arguably used this symbolism the most in the 20th century. The British Union of Fascists also used it in the 1930s. However, unlike for example the swastika, the fasces have avoided the stigma associated with fascist symbolism, and many authorities continue to display them."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 10:47:36 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Yep... a symbol, indicating a bundle, adopted by fascism... which was not a political system from ancient Rome. 

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 10:50:23 AM   
Satyr6406


Posts: 820
Joined: 3/27/2006
From: New Brunswick, N.J.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I remember when it was french indo-china.

The Ugly American


Has anyone besides me just realized that Ron is fucking old! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
(Sorry, Ron. I had to.)
 
 
 
 
 
Peace and comfort,
 
 
 
 
 
Michael

_____________________________

Peace and comfort,


Michael

Former Vice-President Gore didn't invent the internet but, he DID make up global warming!

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 10:54:41 AM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Yep... a symbol, indicating a bundle, adopted by fascism... which was not a political system from ancient Rome. 


...which was not what i claimed. i suggested in response to LuckyDog that fascism was not an offshoot of socialism and that as a political system its roots go further back. Basically, i was trying to argue against the rather lazy conflation of the two political systems by pointing out that one of fascisms roots goes back further than ol'Marx sitting in the British library. i'm not trying to argue that fascism as a discrete and coherant political system was originated by the Roman empire.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 11:06:14 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Then you've lost me... how does the political system of fascism go back farther than 1921, just by using an old symbol for unity? 
The idea of joining together, as well as the adoption of the fasces symbol is hardly unique to any one party or ideology (e pluribus unum?).

Naming themselves the National Socialists, and coining the term fascist is.

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 11:21:37 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Say, Firmhand, where's Bush's approval rating these days?  You used to give us regular updates.

Edited to add: High 20's, low 30's.  Basically where it's been all year.

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 8/24/2007 11:22:24 AM >

(in reply to krikket)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 1:33:30 PM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

No, I also read the funny papers and everything you write.


now THAT.

is funny.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 1:33:58 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Getting back to the OP. I dont see the two situations being the same. In Vietnam America had taken the side of the South, and tried to stop that falling to the North. In Iraq the idea was just to depose Saddam with no real thought about what happens next.



In Vietnam, there was no North or South, until after Western politicians had decided that the leader of the entire country was a threat, so there is that similarity.  Taking sides with the 'good' Vietnamese was just hype.


After the war with the French, the Vietnamese and France agreed to a peace treaty. This was the Geneva conference, and they decided to split the country in two at the 17th parallel until the UN could supervise nationwide elections whe following year. Both parties were represented and signed the agreement.
Hence north and south.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 4:58:25 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Alumbro, Philosophy simply has a compulsive need to disagree with me, no matter how nonsensical his argument may be.  The Italians named thier 20th century political system after a symbol from old Rome, that has been used by many nations, and the Romans got from the Etruscans.  So what. 

The Nazis however called themselves Socialists, not me, they themselves.  National Socialism, was/is a bizzare offshoot of Socialism.  If you feel a need to defend the good name of socialism, go for it...

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/24/2007 11:27:55 PM   
pollux


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Joined: 7/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: krikket


I know I can't look at this situation rationally or clearly, so maybe someone can explain to me how Nam is related to Iraq and how we "know" that Al Quada thinks that our leaving Nam shows them what "wimps" the US is when we didn't win. 



They've said as much.  Google "bin laden strong horse weak horse".


quote:

Thanks for the help.

jimini



Don't mention it.

(in reply to krikket)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/25/2007 4:10:52 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1


The Nazis however called themselves Socialists, not me, they themselves.  National Socialism, was/is a bizzare offshoot of Socialism.  If you feel a need to defend the good name of socialism, go for it...


NAZI is an abreviation of Nationalsozialistische deutsche Arbeiter-Partei.

Hitler's party was a 'national socialist' party, not a 'socialist' party, the two political philosophies are completely different. One is 'nationalist', the other is 'internationalist'. When people on here are complaining about illegal and legal imigration and deportation for immigrants, wanting protectionism and American jobs for Americans, that is akin to 'national socialism'. When people argue for rights for all including those immigrants and wealth to benefit all regardless of origin and status, that is akin to socialism. Ironically the Israeli establishment's insistance on a Jewish state for a Jewish people is akin to 'NAZI doctrine', eine reich, eine folk, eine fuhrer and that is why many left wing socialist Israelis want accommodation with the Arabs in their midst and in the occupied land. The British Nationalist Party wants to repatriate all none British people back to their lands of origin (though one assumes they mean non-whites), that in 'national socialism'. British socialists believe in a multi-cultural, multi-racial state.

As for the economics, most European countries have strong elements of 'socialism' running through their politics. When it comes to 'national socialism', the majority of Europeans become alarmed because that is fascism and we all know what that has done to this continent.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/25/2007 4:11:18 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Viet Nam and Iraq??? - 8/25/2007 4:24:21 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Meatclever i agree with your two definitions in the broad sense. I would suspect though that a large majority of British people, myself included, fall somewhere between the two ideals.

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Profile   Post #: 80
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