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Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 8:06:27 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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One of my favorite quotes in college was "“A man has made at least a start on discovering the meaning of human life when he plants shade trees under which he knows full well he will never sit.”  Elton Trueblood
I wonder how many dominants and masters really understand and experience the concept of doing what’s best/wanted overall vs doing what they want in the moment?

It seems we expect that nearly constantly from slaves, but rather expect masters to be selfish and callous.  I feel this does a disservice to everyone.

I made the realization last night that my ex master probably knew right from the start of pushing me to date others and explore myself as a top that he’d eventually “lose me.”  I know this because he actually told me a few times that it’s what I would become.

He gave up the willing slave because he saw who I was to become.  He could have stopped me, I certainly wasn’t pushing for it or having some aching need at the time.  He could have kept me all for himself. 

Is this why so many masters refuse to allow their slaves to date or play or fuck others?  The fear that the slave might grow and that the master would have to choose between doing what is right and best for the fulfillment of everyone vs keeping the slave they want?

Not that every master would lose their slave in the way that mine did- it certainly wasn’t the only reason our relationship ended.  But yes, I do think he knew it would happen, and I think he accepted his shadetree growing into something he would not be able to sit under a long time before I even figured out what was going on.

Choosing between what you want and enjoy and what you know is best for everyone.  For me it came in the form of love- I find it impossible to have love without encouraging the other person to be who they are IN FULL.  For it to come in the form of dominance- that’s pretty freakin awesome and I’m really thankful now to have had him as a guide to show me that path.


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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 8:22:58 AM   
WillowRain


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I think you have stated this beautifully.
How beautiful and profound a gift to have experienced. I would imagine he has earned your respect forever by being a person capable of such balance. Not every D type, or s type for that matter, is a mature, loving, supportive grown up in how they deal with the world and their relationships. It's always nice to hear of those, or better yet, meet and love those that are.

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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 8:33:42 AM   
Wildfleurs


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I'm glad to see a meatier topic in the middle of a (virtual) wasteland it seems these days.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

One of my favorite quotes in college was "“A man has made at least a start on discovering the meaning of human life when he plants shade trees under which he knows full well he will never sit.”  Elton Trueblood
I wonder how many dominants and masters really understand and experience the concept of doing what’s best/wanted overall vs doing what they want in the moment?


I think you can absolutely understand the difference and still do what you want as opposed to the best for the couple.  I don't think every decision made has to benefit both or benefit the slave/submissive.  To steal a phrase from someone whose posts (not on here) I admire a lot it sucks rocks but it’s still their decision as the dominant/owner.  I also think sometimes decisions that can seem to not be beneficial at all for the submissive/slave can end up being that way in the end, a lot of times its a matter of perceptions, and perceptions can be incorrect or change over time.

quote:


It seems we expect that nearly constantly from slaves, but rather expect masters to be selfish and callous.  I feel this does a disservice to everyone.


Personally I don't expect selfishness, but I do think that even when it absolutely sucks, the dominant/owner has to be guided by their sense of right and wrong and what is appropriate to do, not by the submissive/slaves .... and not by the submissive/slaves emotions on the matter.

quote:


Is this why so many masters refuse to allow their slaves to date or play or fuck others?  The fear that the slave might grow and that the master would have to choose between doing what is right and best for the fulfillment of everyone vs keeping the slave they want?


Well I can only say for us, I can't play, date, or fuck other people (there are a couple of very specific exceptions) because he doesn't share what he owns in that sort of way.  He doesn’t let other people drive his car or use his stuff – so that extends to me as well; he’s just not that kind of person.  And if he owns someone there's no purpose to him changing something that fundamental about himself. 

C~



_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 8:43:27 AM   
becca333


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The best Doms are amazingly unselfish.  They take so much responsibility, and give so much pleasure (although they do enjoy some of the activities a bit, I believe....)  It takes an incredible person to mould their slave or sub to fulfill themselves - even at the cost of the Dom's own needs.

Gold star to them!

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 8:43:31 AM   
Stephann


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G'morning,

A couple thoughts, and not all are entirely my opinion.

What obligation do you feel an owner has, to do what is best for the slave, in spite of what makes her the best slave for him?  If I know full well that pushing my slave to date others, will allow her to find happiness in a relationship that will eventually rule me out, why on earth should I do so?  How am I to know that, in the end, I have done the best thing for her, since the only measure of 'right' or 'wrong' in any relationship is if she is happy.  Meaning, in twenty years, if she is still content and faithfully serving me, how could have I have wronged her, in not pushing her into the 'real world' to date and fuck others, to learn that she really shouldn't have been with me to begin with?

I would say most men jealously guard their slaves for the same reason they jealously guard anything else of value; it's theirs.  I don't know many men who hand the keys of their shiny new Mercedes to some random guy on the street and say "take her for a spin."

I agree with the quote though.  That's a statement on humanity, and it's intrinsic value.  It's not a very good statement on relationships, though; the man who constantly pushes the women he loves to be with and find happiness with someone else, sleeps alone.

Stephan


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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 8:45:03 AM   
PONYSEEKER


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In pretty much every relationship I have had vanilla or otherwise I have at some point suported a decision by my SO that I did not agree with or pushed someone further at the expense or risk of the relationship.  Its one of those set it free and if it comes back kind of things I think.  I dont think I have ever actually lost a relationship because of it though.

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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 8:45:33 AM   
leadinghand


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Well said LA and so true. How can there be any kind of deep lasting relationship if long term goals of growth and development are not considered?
There are times when what feels good, exciting or fun at the moment can be the right thing do. But over time bringing out the best in your submissive will only bring out the best in yourself. My responsibility for her growth and strength is one of the most rewarding parts of our relationship.
I want her to be more confident and sure of her own strength and to help her find her own happiness. I want her to be in my life forever, but because she wants to be, not because she is weak and needs me.
I have told her, "I want you to need me so much until you are strong enough to never have to depend on anyone again, including me."

_____________________________

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When insired by a great and extraordinary purpose, thoughts break their bounds. You transcend limitations, consciousness expands and you find yourself in a new, and wonderful world

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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 8:51:43 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
What obligation do you feel an owner has, to do what is best for the slave, in spite of what makes her the best slave for him?  If I know full well that pushing my slave to date others, will allow her to find happiness in a relationship that will eventually rule me out, why on earth should I do so?

You are right.  My post presumes someone who holds that the ethics of the person puts "being true to yourself" as highest priority.  Masters who believe that not being true to yourself is acceptable, or even preferable, would not hesitate to supress or allow them to seek theirselves beyond slavery.  This would be consistent for them.

quote:

  How am I to know that, in the end, I have done the best thing for her, since the only measure of 'right' or 'wrong' in any relationship is if she is happy.  Meaning, in twenty years, if she is still content and faithfully serving me, how could have I have wronged her, in not pushing her into the 'real world' to date and fuck others, to learn that she really shouldn't have been with me to begin with?

Oh i don't think I SHOULDN'T have been with my ex.  After all, it's what led me here!

How was he to know?  I dunno.  How do I know things I know about my partner?  Maybe we're just that good.  I know he told me he was teaching me the tools and skills that he knew, and it often wasn't until after I started using them that I realized I had them at all.
quote:


I would say most men jealously guard their slaves for the same reason they jealously guard anything else of value; it's theirs.  I don't know many men who hand the keys of their shiny new Mercedes to some random guy on the street and say "take her for a spin."

I really think the inanimate object analogy is inapt for this discussion.  We are discussing human values and priorities towards relationships with other humans.
quote:


I agree with the quote though.  That's a statement on humanity, and it's intrinsic value.  It's not a very good statement on relationships, though; the man who constantly pushes the women he loves to be with and find happiness with someone else, sleeps alone.

Stephan

Once again, my current relationships prove that wrong prety clearly. 

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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 8:54:13 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
Well I can only say for us, I can't play, date, or fuck other people (there are a couple of very specific exceptions) because he doesn't share what he owns in that sort of way.  He doesn’t let other people drive his car or use his stuff – so that extends to me as well; he’s just not that kind of person.  And if he owns someone there's no purpose to him changing something that fundamental about himself. 

C~

What do you feel he would do if he felt or knew something about you and believed that he could decide to let you go down that path or not, but that if you did, it would cause some big not necessarily desireable change for him?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 8:59:46 AM   
szobras


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 Thank you for this, and very nicely stated LA. I can say from my own experience only that as a married man of over 12 years, and a parent, a major part that binds us together is that we are willing to make personal sacrifices for each other’s individual growth. Not only the whole of the relationship. In doing so, we grow together. Sacrifices not tainted with resentment, but with sincere generosity and support. People come in and out each other’s lives. Sometimes it may appear that we have the option to be a vehicle or an obstacle in their own personal path to self discovery.
From time to time on here I have posted with references to selflessness. Yours post is a fine example of one.  I am the center of my universe, which is not all about me. We speak of possession, ownership, of mastery and of the guiding and nurturing of another to become themselves in their entirety.  Wanting another all and completely to myself is not only my choice to make. Not only in reference to monogamy. Each must have sincerity in their same choice to complete that union, or eventually each follow a different path, without the gratitude, and insight you have expressed.

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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 9:01:00 AM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Is this why so many masters refuse to allow their slaves to date or play or fuck others?  The fear that the slave might grow and that the master would have to choose between doing what is right and best for the fulfillment of everyone vs keeping the slave they want?


I really don't think playing or fucking others is going to cause me to grow. It's just sex and it's just playing. And I've done quite a bit more than my fair share of both in my mere 22 years on this earth. For the most part, I really don't care to be with anyone else. It's just another cock, just another set of breasts.

I'm allowed to play with others, male or female as long as Valyraen trusts them not to hurt me. I'm allowed to sleep with women because it's an experience he can't provide. I'm allowed to do these things just about whenever I want and really... I just don't. I've never slept with a woman since we've been together because nowadays, if I don't have an emotional connection to the person I'm sleeping with, it's just not worth it. As for play and scenes, it's just something I like to do more than he does. It gets me experience but not personal growth.

As for not sleeping with men, I really don't want to. Don't know why, just don't. Make out with them and do some groping for kicks maybe. But no further. The reason I'm not allowed to: He doesn't share with other guys. I really like that, as opposed to another relationship I was in where the person just didn't care what I did.

If fucking and playing with other people meant I might grow into a person that would no longer be with Valyraen, I'd just as soon not grow in that direction. I don't see myself as a sunflower that can only grow in one direction, but more like a petunia. I'll send out my roots and stems in all the directions where I want my life to go, like being with him, joining his family and having him join mine.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 9:14:47 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

He gave up the willing slave because he saw who I was to become.  He could have stopped me, I certainly wasn’t pushing for it or having some aching need at the time.  He could have kept me all for himself. 

Is this why so many masters refuse to allow their slaves to date or play or fuck others?  The fear that the slave might grow and that the master would have to choose between doing what is right and best for the fulfillment of everyone vs keeping the slave they want?


Stephan wrote:
quote:

  It's not a very good statement on relationships, though; the man who constantly pushes the women he loves to be with and find happiness with someone else, sleeps alone.


Depends on the people in the relationship.  An older man having a young woman/girl for a partner must know that few of those relationships last (which of course means a few do but a few doesn't disprove the truth of this) and so he has a choice.  Try and cage/chain that young woman down in order to keep her as long as possible (which I think is sad and wrong)  or, as LA put it, he can plant a beautiful tree and watch it grow into something amazing.  Lots of variations on this theme, dominants bottoming to grow would be another example.

I have done the above, I don't like being a jailer.  I want to be a Falconer, my bird free to fly and hunt and yet at my call return to me.  I want a woman I can spend the rest of my life with.  With my lady, I have worked hard to ensure we ARE compatible in the long run, that our goals are the same.  She is a grown woman and so unlike a young woman is stable and "who she is" and the growth ahead of her is different and unlikely to lead in wildly different directions.  Thus we can grow together, expand ourselves together knowing as well as possible that we will be holding hands the entire time.

That said, there WERE things I pushed her to work on first.  I don't feel like sharing her secrets here but there were some things in her life I wanted to see dealt with before I became involved.  Those issues could easily have resulted in us not being together but I wanted that possibility resolved and while I had my desires, I did my best to set them aside while she worked through those issues.

In short (something I rarely manage) there are some relationships one should allow someone freedom and even perhaps push them, in others, the pushing is long past and the paths are likely to be shared forever. 

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 8/24/2007 9:21:44 AM >

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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 9:18:31 AM   
Wildfleurs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

What do you feel he would do if he felt or knew something about you and believed that he could decide to let you go down that path or not, but that if you did, it would cause some big not necessarily desireable change for him?


He would tell me exactly that.

C~


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 9:36:49 AM   
vield


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I must say that seeing the steps someone very dear to me needs to take and knowing that these steps will take her away from me, it is about the hardest thing I have found in life to encourage her to take the steps she needs.

I KNOW I can divert her. I know this will let me keep her a lot longer. In fact if my diversion causes her to miss a truly unique opportunity, I may be able to have her forever.

But I have to face truth, I have to live with my actions. So I open that door for her.

At times I must COMMAND her to follow through on her needs, even when begged to not "make" her do it.

It can tear holes in my soul.

But there are some former subs and former slaves of mine living very happy lives, and these women are still very wonderful friends.

I have a very compatible partner now, and think this is going to last.

However we both know that other potential sub partners we find and share will not necessarily be permanent, especially if they are much younger. This is OK. As long as all are honest, giving people, we enhance each other's lives and enjoy a partner finding their true needs!

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As always, your mileage may vary!

vield

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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 9:38:38 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

He gave up the willing slave because he saw who I was to become.  He could have stopped me, I certainly wasn’t pushing for it or having some aching need at the time.  He could have kept me all for himself. 

Is this why so many masters refuse to allow their slaves to date or play or fuck others?  The fear that the slave might grow and that the master would have to choose between doing what is right and best for the fulfillment of everyone vs keeping the slave they want?


Stephan wrote:
quote:

  It's not a very good statement on relationships, though; the man who constantly pushes the women he loves to be with and find happiness with someone else, sleeps alone.


Depends on the people in the relationship.  An older man having a young woman/girl for a partner must know that few of those relationships last (which of course means a few do but few doesn't disprove the truth of this) and so he has a choice.  Try and cage/chain that young woman down in order to keep her as long as possible which I think is sad and wrong.  Or, as LA put it, he can plant a beautiful tree and watch it grow into something amazing.  Lots of varions on this theme, dominants bottoming to grow would be another example.


Awesome post LA!

Michael, I have had the very experience you describe and I am indebted to that man to this day for having the wisdom and the lack of selfishness to sacrifice something that was so enjoyable to him because he understood that keeping it would be shortchanging and detrimental to me in the long term. Thank you for stating it so eloquently.

Many years ago (nearly 27 now) I was happily, blissfully, head over heels, madly in love with my first Dominant. He was much older than myself and I absolutely idolized him. We were together for a few exciting and fun filled years full of new experiences for me. Then came a day when he put the brakes on the whole thing and sent me on my way. Needless to say I was hurt, confused and devastated. I felt as though he was abandoning me. He tried to explain to me why our paths must go seperate ways and that I had a life to live and things to learn that would be better learned with someone closer to my own age. I didn't have the maturity at that time in my life to understand and had to deal with a rollercoaster of emotion (another experience that, as it turned out, I really needed to experience).

We have remained friends over the many years and I have never forgotten the many experiences, the great times, the depth of emotion and the lessons I learned from my experiences with him. He played a very large part in who I am today and I am forever thankful that my first experience in this lifestyle was with someone who was such a great man and Dominant.

Last year, his wife of nearly 25 years passed away. I went to visit with him for a couple of weeks. He surprised me by beginning a conversation telling me how unbelievably proud he was of me and that the woman I have become has verified to him that he made the right decision all of those years ago. He also confided in me that making that decision was one of the toughest he had ever had to make and doing so ripped his heart out. He thought beyond himself and did what he felt was ultimately the right thing to do....and I thank him for that.

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~erin~

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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 9:39:29 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
What obligation do you feel an owner has, to do what is best for the slave, in spite of what makes her the best slave for him? If I know full well that pushing my slave to date others, will allow her to find happiness in a relationship that will eventually rule me out, why on earth should I do so? How am I to know that, in the end, I have done the best thing for her, since the only measure of 'right' or 'wrong' in any relationship is if she is happy. Meaning, in twenty years, if she is still content and faithfully serving me, how could have I have wronged her, in not pushing her into the 'real world' to date and fuck others, to learn that she really shouldn't have been with me to begin with?


There is no formal obligation, and perhaps not even a moral obligation.  An owner is, by virtue of his position, at liberty to act however he desires.

However, even owners cannot escape the inevitability of consequence.  If an owner does not take the best care of his slave, there will be a consequence, be it an unhappy slave or a released slave.  If an owner is conscientious and caring, there will also be a consequence--hopefully a rich and rewarding relationship.  Obligation, so far as it exists, arises from the desire to obtain desirable consequences and avoid undesirable ones.

Should every slave be cultivated vis-a-vis LuckyAlbatross?  No.  Her ex-owner made a choice regarding her development, based on observations he made at the time.  A different but no less conscientious owner might have made a different decision.  Likewise, if you nurture within your slaves those attributes which make them fitting property for you, and they are fulfilled as a consequence, then to my way of thinking it may be fairly stated you have done what you saw was best for that slave.

Being an owner is about making choices that dramatically affect your slave, both now and in the future.  I submit that choosing wisely in this case means choosing to grow and nurture the slave along whatever path seems best suited for her and reaching her full potential as an individual. 


< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 8/24/2007 9:40:14 AM >


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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 10:01:14 AM   
Grlwithboy


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This is the kind of perspective I believe in in any relationship, ownership or not. Ownership makes someone transparent and known enough to me so that I *can* make judgements in tune with what they need and in tune with the person revealed to me.

People are going to develop into who they are, period. You can make those changes and shifts unbearable for yourself and you can deny them, or you can go with the flow. Dating and fucking other people is just one example of someone developing as they might need to. I know I'm losing M/s focus with my slave because of his work. Well, he needs to be a published author more than he needs to be at my beck and call. Far more.

The falconer analogy is a nice one. I like to think of it as gardening. In my case I am much younger than my slave, I can still see myself becoming irrelevant at some point, I just hope I have the confidence to spot it as it comes.



< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 8/24/2007 10:07:18 AM >

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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 10:05:17 AM   
junecleaver


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I think my dominant has allowed me to make decisions that were unpleasant for him, but extremely beneficial for myself.  It didn't really have anything to do with sharing me, but I was grateful that he did what we both knew was best for me instead of what would make him feel good temporarily. I know that he would allow me to play with someone he trusts, but that's a really small list of people.  I doubt he would share me physically with any others.  Some day in the far future, maybe we'll have a threesome?  It's not one of his fantasies though, so who knows? I think it's amazing and awesome that your previous owner was able to lead you in this direction.  But different people experience different things even when walking down the same path.  I'm not sure being encouraged in the direction you were would put me in the same place. Trying to put the shoe on a different foot, if it would somehow majorly improve my Dominant's life to have sex with different women....I know it would take me awhile (if ever) before I accepted it as a good thing.

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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 10:05:41 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy
This is the kind of perspective I believe in in any relationship, ownership or not.

Very true.  Regardless of the style of relationship, if we care about a person we should seek to facilitate his or her growth along whatever lines seem appropriate.

The difference in the ownership dynamic is that more of the conscious decision-making is deliberately shifted onto the owner.  THAT is the power exchange that takes place.


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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 10:46:56 AM   
ownedgirlie


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Awesome thread, LA.

While I don't necessarily think a Master has an obligation to make decisions that will enhance the growth of his (her) slave, I do think the better Masters practice this.

My Master taught me to be true to myself, and in doing so I am finding an inner peace I have never known.  However, he has always said if he ever feels I would be happier or better off without him, he would release me even though he prefers to keep me.  I find that to be extremely UNselfish, and I respect him greatly for it.

As for not being with others, I believe he has several reasons for that.  One reason is that he and I have unprotected sex, and this is a way of ensuring I can not pick something up elsewhere.  He can control me and what I do - - he can not control what any sex partner of mine does, or what their other partners do.  He also finds it is emotionally healthier for me to not engage in other sexual relationships that do not include him, for reasons too complicated to get into here.  And, yes I think there is some selfishness behind this decision, too.  He likes having me all to himself in this way, and I actually prefer that he makes the decisions of who gets to play with me and who does not.

Ultimately, though, his vision for me has morphed from getting the slave of his desires in me to doing what is best for me.  As it turns out, what is best for me is to be the slave of his desires :)  But if he ever felt I'd be better off without him, he would make the difficult decision of letting me go.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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