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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 10:56:29 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		~FR~

Michael is a 'big picture' kind of guy and, generally, thinks of long term results rather than short term gains which is probably one of the reasons it took me two years to earn his collar. I think a person's life experience and longevity in D/s also contributes to how much a dominant is going to allow another to spread their wings. I'd been into r/t S/M and D/s for several years before I met Himself and had already tasted a variety of fruits. As such, I didn't have a need for a lot of room to fly so was fine being kept on a shorter leash than otherwise might have been good for me.

Michael wouldn't have wanted me when I was 20 or 25 and I wouldn't have been able to emotionally handle the dominant that he is either, but now that we are among the older generation, a bit more grounded and tempered by our experiences, our growth is found, mostly, with each other and there isn't much need for external sources for either of us at this point. We're the old folks sitting under the shade trees now. Some of which were planted by others, many of which we planted ourselves before we met and a few new saplings that we planted and water together so we can appreciate them in our golden years.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 10:59:14 AM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		In my personal experience when it comes to certain styles of play especially when it came to signal whips (because of my past fears and beliefs regarding them), I felt that if my slave was interested in that I couldn't give that to her, so it was important that she had that outlet.  When I first got into power exchange, I was always afraid that I didn't know enough and allow my slave to play with others set me up to lose her but as I grew and learned and as we grew as a unit then I realized that our relationship came first and we both had (physical) needs regarding them.

There are somethings (physically) that I believe other Tops, Masters, Mistresses etc can provide better than I can and I actually get off on seeing the exchange with another because I believe even by watching that I am a part of that exchange.  I've also conquered some of my past fears in some elements of play too.

Now here's the catch, I've been a coward before and I've actually introduced ex slaves (while still mine) to other Masters with the hope they'd move on instead of saying "this isn't working out, let's go our seperate ways." I've learned from that.

Good topic

_____________________________

"Flirting is part of the job description." DJ Jesus (Lucy Daughter Of The Devil)

Vanilla Official Music Page http://www.myspace.com/djzulu

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 11:54:07 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		I do agree with you in essence, LA, but I also know there is a fine line between pushing someone into doing something they have no real interest in, and encouraging them to grow.

Push me, and I get farther away from you... pull me along and I'm right there with you.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 12:12:03 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Hello again,

Ok, first I'll admit that I hedged my first post a little.  This is actually a topic I wrestled with recently.  It wasn't the single factor involved, but certainly an important one.  The long story short, is I think I tried doing what was best for her, in my way, and I'm still not sure if I regret it or not; it's too early to know.

With that said...

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

You are right.  My post presumes someone who holds that the ethics of the person puts "being true to yourself" as highest priority.  Masters who believe that not being true to yourself is acceptable, or even preferable, would not hesitate to supress or allow them to seek theirselves beyond slavery.  This would be consistent for them.


Cut the attitude, please.  You can do better.  It'll be an unpleasent conversation that I'm not likely to continue if you don't.

I don't believe in the "being true to yourself."  I think it's an externalized vision of one's self.

The question, though, is that a 'young' girl as you paint her in this situation, doesn't know who she is, or what she wants.  This is precisely why he's decided to do what is best 'for her' even though she doesn't see his inherent wisdom.  Essentially, she's not being given the choice to be true to herself; she's being told what true to herself is.

Anyway, you didn't address the situation, where in keeping a slave happy, healthy, and content for 20 years somehow denied her her chance at 'true' happiness?


quote:

Oh i don't think I SHOULDN'T have been with my ex.  After all, it's what led me here!

How was he to know?  I dunno.  How do I know things I know about my partner?  Maybe we're just that good.  I know he told me he was teaching me the tools and skills that he knew, and it often wasn't until after I started using them that I realized I had them at all.


I honestly don't like the implication of 'short term' and 'timed' relationships.  I know they're not bad, inferior, or anything of that sort, but I don't like the idea of collaring a girl, knowing full well I'm going to have to cut her loose in a few months or years.  In the same vein, I try not to start dating someone when I know I'm going to move soon, or someone who I know will probably leave in the near future.  I won't say never, sure, but I won't actively seek a relationship with someone well below or above my age range either, for the same reasons.  The sort of situation you've been describing, smacks of the typical 'paternal' older dominant and newbie younger sub. 

quote:


I really think the inanimate object analogy is inapt for this discussion.  We are discussing human values and priorities towards relationships with other humans.


We're discussing how people can feel powerful feelings of possessiveness (imagine that in a D/s relationship )  That feeling isn't for the object, or for the slave, but rather the status they represent.  The jealousy of others using a man's slave (btw, use your own gender appropriate pronouns, I'm simply writing from my point of view) is really on the same level.  People just don't usually like to share the toys they enjoy in private.  A man is happy to let another man watch his television, but will jealously hide and guard his pornography and sex toy collection.  Masturbation is simply not a topic straight men discuss, technique wise in the way women do.  The women we have sex with, become 'our' women on some level, and not for public consumption. 

Note these are just general statements on how no small number of dominants view this issue.  Personally, I'd gladly tie my slave down and video tape the whole gangbang.

quote:


Once again, my current relationships prove that wrong prety clearly. 


Again, with that part of the topic, I wasn't really voicing my opinions, but the Devil's.  I do think , that if I actively pushed my slave away from me towards other men, it's likely she would eventually leave me.  Not every woman is wired for polysexual or polyarmorous relationships.  Neither is every man. 

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 12:41:55 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		You can see it as noble and self sacrificingof the master to lead the slave to the path that's right for him/her, or you can see it as a wise master who see's the inevitable and realizes he cannot stop it.  He takes what value he can from the situation while it is available to him and bows out when it's time, he get's all the accolades in the end because he went along with something he had no power over to begin with.

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Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 1:01:13 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
Again, with that part of the topic, I wasn't really voicing my opinions, but the Devil's.  I do think , that if I actively pushed my slave away from me towards other men, it's likely she would eventually leave me.  Not every woman is wired for polysexual or polyarmorous relationships.  Neither is every man. 

Stephan

I will only respond so much as to say that as you clearly initially stated that your post wasn't your actual opinions, that my responses were completely phrased as if they were towards some random unknown person who actually did hold those opinions.

So your "cut the attitude" comment and defense of what you do and don't believe is completely misplaced.  This is the trouble people get into when they start to try and make arguments for things they don't actually believe in mixed in with things they actually do believe in. 

Sadly while I continue to respect your fortitude and unwavering seductive personality, your lack of stability, substance, and your selective memory encourages me to no longer engage in discourse with you until such time as I see change in those aspects.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 1:08:04 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		I would have to say I agree and I disagree.

First off, I know what I want out of a relationship. I want to Own someone. I want my ideal vision of a slave. I want power exhange. I want to control. I want to indulge in my slave. This is what I personally want.

If wanting these things out of my own individual relationship makes me selfish, then so be it...I am selfish.

But at the same time, I am pragmatic, altruistic, and not a fool.

On introspection, I do beleive I know what it means to "do whats best". I wont drag things out with someone who isnt a good match for me. I wont try and turn someone into my slave when clearly its not the role they clearly want. I wont have someone drive down to see me constantly simply because I want to save money. I wont jeopardize someone else's life goals and ambitions simply because I want them as my slave.

But just because I am willing to accept circumstance, reality, and the fact that people arent necessarily meant to be in the kind of relationship that I want doesnt mean that I dont have my own plans and desires and going to throw them on the backburner for them.

I have yet to be in a long term M/S relationship because of the circumstances and realities that have been presented. I am fine with waiting patiently. I am not going to throw myself head first into a dynamic with the first self proclaimed slave that says boo to me simply because I want it all RIGHT NOW.

I have my own selfish desires and wants, but I am more than capable of thinking past that to the big picture and making decisions that I think are best. So far, I havent been wrong. I have no trainwreck castrasophe stories to tell here or momunemental relationship failures. But at the same time, just because I am willing to think past the immediate doesnt automatically mean that I am not out to get what I want.



_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
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Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 1:10:53 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Choosing between what you want and enjoy and what you know is best for everyone

Ah......but isn't it great when you don't have to choose?  When what you "want and enjoy" is "best for everyone?"  That's the way I see it in our relationship.
quote:

For me it came in the form of love- I find it impossible to have love without encouraging the other person to be who they are IN FULL
I would have to say that Master would totally agree with this statement even though He doesn't allow me to "date or play of fuck" other men. 

He loves me absolutely and He does encourage me and bring out the best in me.  He wants me to be all I can be, so to speak.  However, in His estimation of what will do that, fucking other men doesn't factor in.  As AquaticSub said, I'm not sure that's necessarily about "growth" as much as just about fun (at least in my view). 

I mentioned in a thread I started the other day that, even though He has no plans to ever let me go, He has said that if He ever thought I would be better off without Him, He would.  He absolutely has my best interests at heart.  He considers what would be best for me and for us - not just what brings Him pleasure at any given moment.  Just because He happens to believe that being with other men isn't a way for me to "grow," doesn't in any way mean that He's preventing me from being who I am "in full."  He knows that what I REALLY am is His and that in being so, I'm infinitely more fulfilled and self-actualized than I would be just by being able to freely partake of others..........luci 


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RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 1:14:57 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I would have to say I agree and I disagree.

First off, I know what I want out of a relationship. I want to Own someone. I want my ideal vision of a slave. I want power exhange. I want to control. I want to indulge in my slave. This is what I personally want.

If wanting these things out of my own individual relationship makes me selfish, then so be it...I am selfish.

But at the same time, I am pragmatic, altruistic, and not a fool.

On introspection, I do beleive I know what it means to "do whats best". I wont drag things out with someone who isnt a good match for me. I wont try and turn someone into my slave when clearly its not the role they clearly want. I wont have someone drive down to see me constantly simply because I want to save money. I wont jeopardize someone else's life goals and ambitions simply because I want them as my slave.

But just because I am willing to accept circumstance, reality, and the fact that people arent necessarily meant to be in the kind of relationship that I want doesnt mean that I dont have my own plans and desires and going to throw them on the backburner for them.

I have yet to be in a long term M/S relationship because of the circumstances and realities that have been presented. I am fine with waiting patiently. I am not going to throw myself head first into a dynamic with the first self proclaimed slave that says boo to me simply because I want it all RIGHT NOW.

I have my own selfish desires and wants, but I am more than capable of thinking past that to the big picture and making decisions that I think are best. So far, I havent been wrong. I have no trainwreck castrasophe stories to tell here or momunemental relationship failures. But at the same time, just because I am willing to think past the immediate doesnt automatically mean that I am not out to get what I want.



You, MadRabbit, are one wise young man.............luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 1:19:31 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

You can see it as noble and self sacrificingof the master to lead the slave to the path that's right for him/her, or you can see it as a wise master who see's the inevitable and realizes he cannot stop it.  He takes what value he can from the situation while it is available to him and bows out when it's time, he get's all the accolades in the end because he went along with something he had no power over to begin with.


I see it as building up a human being.  To my mind, building is what men do.

Man must build.  That is the order of things.


_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 1:26:12 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
First off, I know what I want out of a relationship. I want to Own someone. I want my ideal vision of a slave. I want power exhange. I want to control. I want to indulge in my slave. This is what I personally want.

If wanting these things out of my own individual relationship makes me selfish, then so be it...I am selfish.

I would say that yes, it makes you selfish, and yes, I completely support that and you seeking and finding it in total bliss.  Selfishness is not only good, but necessary IMO to have personal fulfillment.

quote:

But just because I am willing to accept circumstance, reality, and the fact that people arent necessarily meant to be in the kind of relationship that I want doesnt mean that I dont have my own plans and desires and going to throw them on the backburner for them.

I think that's completely reasonable and good.  But would you believe that a slave should put their own sense of self on the back burner for their master or the sake of being owned?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 1:34:20 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

You can see it as noble and self sacrificingof the master to lead the slave to the path that's right for him/her, or you can see it as a wise master who see's the inevitable and realizes he cannot stop it.  He takes what value he can from the situation while it is available to him and bows out when it's time, he get's all the accolades in the end because he went along with something he had no power over to begin with.


Velvet said exactly what I was going to post.

I'm sorry but to a certain degree it is almost laughable....It might actually say something more about the Dom who takes up initially with someone who is much younger than themselves....I look at women in their early twenties and think it would be fun to enjoy some of that for awhile....And that is all that it would be...There is no great wisdom involved, it is simply the most likely reality.

As far as fucking and play and such these are things that run the possibility of being detrimental to the over all health of a relationship....Let's face it LA...You are rather an odd duck...I do possess ego.  In order to have another guy be tapping my stuff there would have to be one Hell of an understanding...The more likely scenario would be one of two things...I don't care about her enough so the idea of her fucking another would carry little meaning or emotional weight...Or that it is in my best interest to allow this to happen because it's going to happen regardless of whether I give my "blessing" or not...Either way it's not the best of situations for me or the sub involved.

_____________________________



(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 1:38:17 PM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

One of my favorite quotes in college was "“A man has made at least a start on discovering the meaning of human life when he plants shade trees under which he knows full well he will never sit.”  Elton Trueblood
I wonder how many dominants and masters really understand and experience the concept of doing what’s best/wanted overall vs doing what they want in the moment?

It seems we expect that nearly constantly from slaves, but rather expect masters to be selfish and callous.  I feel this does a disservice to everyone.

I made the realization last night that my ex master probably knew right from the start of pushing me to date others and explore myself as a top that he’d eventually “lose me.”  I know this because he actually told me a few times that it’s what I would become.

He gave up the willing slave because he saw who I was to become.  He could have stopped me, I certainly wasn’t pushing for it or having some aching need at the time.  He could have kept me all for himself. 

Is this why so many masters refuse to allow their slaves to date or play or fuck others?  The fear that the slave might grow and that the master would have to choose between doing what is right and best for the fulfillment of everyone vs keeping the slave they want?

Not that every master would lose their slave in the way that mine did- it certainly wasn’t the only reason our relationship ended.  But yes, I do think he knew it would happen, and I think he accepted his shadetree growing into something he would not be able to sit under a long time before I even figured out what was going on.

Choosing between what you want and enjoy and what you know is best for everyone.  For me it came in the form of love- I find it impossible to have love without encouraging the other person to be who they are IN FULL.  For it to come in the form of dominance- that’s pretty freakin awesome and I’m really thankful now to have had him as a guide to show me that path.



I consider myself a Guardian-Guide, as I watch over and protect my slave (when I had one) from the fakes, wannabes, and their kin out there, while guiding her to achieve her full potential, whatever that may be.

I think anyone who is planning to have a long-term relationship has to take that attitude if they hope for the relationship to last.

I also think of the many with low self-esteem whom I've helped. I can recall telling more than a few, while they were gushing with gratitude and preparing to swear their undying loyalty that they would eventually find their confidence and then move on.

I was always correct about that, because once they'd found their confidence they found the strength to dream their own dreams again.

I know not all bdsmers take it to the degree I do. Most are dom/sub for only a short time in a day or week. They are scening, not living as master and slave 24/7.

But for me, a master/slave 24/7 relationship comes with enormous responsibilities for the welfare of my slave, as she is giving up the freedom to make her own decisions in favour of abiding by mine.

Under those conditions, I cannot give in to selfish impulses without considering the consequences for her. What appears spontaneous to her is something I may have been planning and thinking about for weeks.

And feedback is essential in such relationships. I'm very attentive to the needs and feelings of a slave. Between my slave and I there was a lot of talking and listening.

There needs to be, as her happiness was as important to me as my own.

I believe that is why we had as many good years as we did.

On the side, I like your quote.

Three years ago I noticed that Aspen and Poplar had taken seed in a few open spaces. Rather than clear them out I realized that in another 25 years or so they'd be great sources for firewood, as there isn't a lot of hardwood on this property.

Of course, in another 25 years I'd be 75. But my son would be in his late 20s. As it was our intention to pay off the house and leave it to him when we passed on, I thought it best to leave the new trees be so he'd have free firewood to burn when he took over.

So I very much recognize myself in the quote.

Thanks for raising this topic.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 1:52:38 PM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

You can see it as noble and self sacrificingof the master to lead the slave to the path that's right for him/her, or you can see it as a wise master who see's the inevitable and realizes he cannot stop it.  He takes what value he can from the situation while it is available to him and bows out when it's time, he get's all the accolades in the end because he went along with something he had no power over to begin with.


I don't see these being different things.

To me, it is a question of does the master have the foresight to see what is best for his slave, and then makes the appropriate choices, or not.

That master could also do all he can to hinder her growth, and may even succeed. He'd certainly leave her with a terribly screwed up attitude towards life and herself in the process.

I think one prone to that kind of selfishness is unlikely to follow the latter course you've described.

I don't know that it is possible to selfishly accept the inevitable. Anyone with the foresight to see the inevitable, and cooperates with it, is thinking more of what's best for his slave, and not himself.

After all, who wants to go out and look again?

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 1:59:10 PM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

But would you believe that a slave should put their own sense of self on the back burner for their master or the sake of being owned?


Gods no!

It is her sense of self that she is devoting to me.

To deny it would be to create one -very- miserable slave, and fail in my responsibilities to care for her and keep her well.

I cannot on the one hand guide her to the realization of her full potential, and on the other hand force or expect her to put her true self in a closet hidden away from me.

It has to be one or the other, and for me, it is the former, not the latter.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 2:02:48 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Yeah, put me in with the deep thinking Velvet and Domniguy on this one. I think of what is best for subs at times and balance that against my desire to stay in control. If I am encouraging them to move on, it could be a way for me to stay in control of things because I sense they are heading that way or it could be that I am tired and want them to move on.

Practically speaking such encouragement often results in a “no way” when you tell someone to see others or something. The reverse psychology, I suppose.

So don’t think too kindly of those who have told you to move on because you need to grow or have your space or whatever the hell you call it. That kept them in control to a degree even when you were gone. They had the option of seeking you out again.

LA obviously you think fondly of your previous owner and I wouldn’t doubt he has some authority over you yet, although I know you are very happy in your current relationship and all that. So he knew what he was doing.

_____________________________

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 2:37:17 PM   
UR2Badored


Posts: 506
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

One of my favorite quotes in college was "“A man has made at least a start on discovering the meaning of human life when he plants shade trees under which he knows full well he will never sit.”  Elton Trueblood
I wonder how many dominants and masters really understand and experience the concept of doing what’s best/wanted overall vs doing what they want in the moment?



I am going to give credit to the originator here, but I related the following quote to this thread. I found this posted on a recent CM thread, and sought permission from the source prior to posting it in my journal.  I like the way it is phrased, and I did not wish to paraphrase and take any credit for it.  Correct me if I am wrong, and please use a ruler, but the following quote best sums of my philosophy to the OP's statement (Mastery vs Surrender) with my own adjustments to adapt to my quirks. I also feel that nothing is so etched in stone that flexibility given the person, circumstance, or moment is either right or wrong, but simply taken into account as best as possible.  As a child, my mother would say in order for a relationship to work each person has to be williing to give 75% and accept 50% in return. I still think she had a valid point. She would say a 50/50 relationship would not work because it becomes too tedious and nit picky. Neither would a person giving 100% to another person and losing identity, a voice, or in this a case, the relationship. Of course, I come to realize now that giving 100% is highly subjective.
DISCLAIMER: And by my agreeing to the following quote.....I in no way expect ALL my needs to be met at any or all times, but I do want a person who has somewhat this mindset of care and solves, in my mind, a variety of trust issues.......

"As a Dom in my relationship, my priorities are:
1. [Bottom, slave, submissve] her needs
2. [Top, Master, Dominant] My needs
3. [Top, Master, Dominant] My desires
4. [Bottom, slave, submissve] her desires
[In a TPE I believe it is my duty (and honour) to take care of her legitimate needs. In exchange for taking care of her needs she surrenders her desires to me.]"
(theq) 

Edited: I guess this would only apply to the concept (Mastery vs Surrender) not necessarilly the literal meaning of the quote.  Not all relationships were meant to be groomed for a better suited mate. It does show unselfishness.....but I do not see how all relationships would benefit from fully utilizing this as a standard......... 

On a side note: My favorite quote in college was Martin Luther King's
"The appalling silence of good people".  It got me through many essays.

PS.....I had a clear response before I responded......now I confused even myself, and so I went outside to plant a tree in my neighbor's yard.

< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 8/24/2007 3:33:02 PM >

_____________________________

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way
Mark Twain

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 2:47:37 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Yeah, put me in with the deep thinking Velvet and Domniguy on this one. I think of what is best for subs at times and balance that against my desire to stay in control. If I am encouraging them to move on, it could be a way for me to stay in control of things because I sense they are heading that way or it could be that I am tired and want them to move on.

Practically speaking such encouragement often results in a “no way” when you tell someone to see others or something. The reverse psychology, I suppose.

So don’t think too kindly of those who have told you to move on because you need to grow or have your space or whatever the hell you call it. That kept them in control to a degree even when you were gone. They had the option of seeking you out again.



I think if I heard that as an ongoing, continual diatribe from Himself, I would begin to question how much he really wanted me in the first place. Motivation is so important and misinterpretation so easy to come by. I would think it would behoove one to walk a very fine line in issuing such directives. That approach wouldn't work well with me. I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who, clearly, wants me to seek out others. If there is something which I need or want for growth, I'd much rather we sought out, together, the ways in which we can bring that growth about rather than seek outside sources for it which may lead places neither of us wishes to go.

Excellent point, Ex.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 4:41:07 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
Again, with that part of the topic, I wasn't really voicing my opinions, but the Devil's.  I do think , that if I actively pushed my slave away from me towards other men, it's likely she would eventually leave me.  Not every woman is wired for polysexual or polyarmorous relationships.  Neither is every man. 

Stephan

I will only respond so much as to say that as you clearly initially stated that your post wasn't your actual opinions, that my responses were completely phrased as if they were towards some random unknown person who actually did hold those opinions.

So your "cut the attitude" comment and defense of what you do and don't believe is completely misplaced.  This is the trouble people get into when they start to try and make arguments for things they don't actually believe in mixed in with things they actually do believe in. 

Sadly while I continue to respect your fortitude and unwavering seductive personality, your lack of stability, substance, and your selective memory encourages me to no longer engage in discourse with you until such time as I see change in those aspects.


Hi LA,

I find that quite sad.  While I may have offered a position I didn't entirely agree with, neither did I do it in a derogatory fashion.  If you find my arguments lacking, I've always welcomed critical (if polite) comments.  We don't often stand on opposing ends of an issue; simply because we do occasionally, is no cause for either of us to pack our toys and go home.  I'm only asking you to remember that snarkiness usually ends up making conversations very, very unpleasent, and I think yours in this case was completely uncalled for.  If you feel the need to address something more specifically, I welcome you to address me on the other side.

velvetears,

Much of the point I'm trying to drive home here, is that the assumption is that the slave must be sent on her own at some point.  Why is this?  I do believe that if the best thing for my slave to do is to leave, in spite of what I wish or what's best for me, I'd encourage her to pursue that path.  It doesn't mean it's any less bitter of a pill to swallow.

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 8/24/2007 5:02:13 PM >

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Mastery vs Surrender - 8/24/2007 4:42:49 PM   
adoracat


Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline 		~fast reply~

Sir lets me have one other person that i play with, in a vanilla sense of the word play.  it would be easy for him to deny me that, and i would absolutely obey.  however.  he knows he cant be with me as much as we both wish/need, and he knows that in some ways i'm very alone and lonely.  so he allows me this otherlove, and between the 2 of them, i'm content. 

that isnt counting my husband, whom in some ways is only a roommate.

kitten

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 40
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