Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (Full Version)

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Stephann -> Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 8:02:45 PM)

Usual caveats.  This is just my opinion; it's probably not right for you, so stop reading it already.  It is not intended for training, application, practice, or any other use.  It was probably just a typing exercise on my part, and anything foolish you do to yourselves or someone you love based on these thoughts, is entirely your own idiot fault.

I think one of the most difficult tasks, is to punish/discipline in a D/s relationship effectively, in a manner that brings about the change the dominant desires, without causing undue or unnecessary damage.  Anyone who's tried to open a stubborn jar by slamming it on the counter might know this.  One hit, and it might not open.  Two hits, and it might shatter.  What's the answer?  Obviously, the actual answer will depend on the people involved, how aggressive the dominant is in the act, and how susceptible the submissive is to being hurt in the process. 

In my own style, I don't usually attempt to seriously discipline a girl I do not actually love.  I've found I can be excessively harsh, with a girl I don't care enough about, so I simply avoid doing it, or if I feel the need I try to do it as I might with an acquaintance or casual friend; gently, and without any expectation that my 'advice' will be adhered to. 

In disciplining someone I love, I've learned the key is to focus on the goal and task at hand; to ensure whatever situation just occurred, does not happen again.  This means if my slave happens to fail miserably at cooking my bosses favorite meal, and I hate the dish myself as well... it's probably not worth disciplining her over (never mind that she'd probably beat herself up over it worse than I could; this theme will be explored later.)  If the offense is simply not severe or common enough to warrant 'fixing' than it's probably not worth getting under the hood and getting dirty.  Unlike 'play', I find 'less is best.'  Actively looking for reasons to correct and punish my slave is just a waste of effort on my part, and likely to keep her skittish and afraid to act on her own (at best.)  I also don't tend to punish for unintentional mistakes; I might mention it, just so that she can work on making sure it doesn't happen, at most.

So, correction is needed.  There's a few techniques that can be used.  I don't really enjoy any of them myself, but like you would with a child, starting with the 'lecture' or the 'reminder' is a good start.  Obviously, it depends on the severity of the situation; for me, lying is the sort of infringement that nearly blows the roof off, while disobedience can be on the heels (though obviously, we're talking about scale here; I obviously wouldn't punish a girl for lying, to hide my surprise birthday party, or disobeyed me in order to save a drowning cat.)  I remember telling gretchen not to move once, while standing in front of a prepared meal on the stove.  She was hungry, and I knew it.  I was going to use the bathroom to wash my hands quickly.... but had a feeling.  Sure enough, I caught her, like a cat with a bird in her mouth.  I think I spanked her about thirty times.  There was no need for a 'discussion' or 'lecture' in this case.

What mattered most, though, wasn't 'what' I did to punish her.  What mattered, was that after I had spanked her (yes, quite aggressively; she didn't end up on the floor over my knee on her own volition) was that I still provided some aftercare.  I let her ball up and cry, I checked her over to make sure I hadn't hit any harder than I intended, and most importantly, I explained to her why she was punished.  For her, she would later say it wasn't the spankings, but the reminders of her mistake each time she felt it that hurt the most.  I could haver probably caned her with the same effect.  I think this is the value punishment carries; it allows an externalized reaction, and physical manifestation of the mistake.  It takes a vague concept of 'obedience' and gives it real teeth.  It also takes that mistake, and sets it to rest.  She never forgot that lesson, and never disobeyed me in that way again.  But I know if I had not taken 20 minutes afterwards to really talk to her, and listen to her like as the woman I loved, it would have only hurt her. 

So, sum up.

- Make sure punishment is absolutely necessary.
- Never punish in anger
- Use the minimum level you feel appropriate.
- Apply firmly.  She probably won't learn much if you spank her with a feather duster.  Do whatever you're going to do, and mean it.
- Provide aftercare, both physical and mental.  The punishment may not have been corporal, but that doesn't mean she's not hurting.
- Talk about the event.  Show her you care/love/feel/empathize.  Show her that she's more than just a whipped dog to you.

Good luck,

Stephan




DarkDaddyZ -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 8:25:19 PM)

AND the most important part....

If you are a sadist and get excited about punishing.. never let her know it, you know that errr mixed signal thingie.  Gets you everytime!




velvetears -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 8:46:24 PM)

You said, "I've found I can be excessively harsh, with a girl I don't care enough about" - i found that disturbing.  The harshness of the puinishment should fit the offense and have nothing to do with your feelings for the girl, imo. 
 
From a subs persepctive if i was with a dom and punishment was part of our dynamic and i felt that his love for me influenced the level of punishment i got - that would not sit well with me, i would feel i had a way to manipulate him and if he indeed allowed that to happen, i would loose trust in his ability to effectively "master" me. 




Stephann -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 8:50:43 PM)

Hi velvetears,

I wasn't referring to the amount of love mattering.  I was saying that I don't like to be in a serious, long term disciplinarian position with subs/slaves that I have no personal, vested interest in.  It's like children; I don't like to care for other people's children for a serious length of time, if I don't have any emotional connection to them.  I also form such connections rather easily; whether they are appropriate or not.  It's just my emotional make up.  I don't/won't collar a slave I can't/won't love. 

The love in slavery debate is honestly a very hot issue beyond the scope of this thread.  If you'd like to discuss it, I'd be happy to start a new thread for that though.

Stephan




celticlord2112 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 8:55:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
- Talk about the event. Show her you care/love/feel/empathize. Show her that she's more than just a whipped dog to you.


I prefer not to discuss the matter too much after a punishment.   When I punish, once the punishment is done it is DONE.  I don't want any guilt or other negative feeling lingering around.

Wipe the slate clean, restore the balance, then move on.  That is how I approach such things.






Stephann -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 8:57:00 PM)

I agree; I don't like guilt to linger.  It's why I discuss it (especially the first couple times) to make it clear, there is no need for guilt in the first place. 

I think humility has a huge role to play in this vein.

Stephan




breatheasone -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 8:58:47 PM)

Stephann, very nice post. I'm glad this works for you and your girl. You sound like a thoughtful level headed guy.




xoxi -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 9:04:47 PM)

OK I have no comment on the post except...may I steal that caveat for my sig line? [:D]




shellzbythesea -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 9:18:46 PM)

"I prefer not to discuss the matter too much after a punishment.   When I punish, once the punishment is done it is DONE.  I don't want any guilt or other negative feeling lingering around.

Wipe the slate clean, restore the balance, then move on. "

Okay, i suck.  i still don't know how to capture other's words like everyone has been doing. 
 
Regardless...this is of great interest to me.  i've been wondering, is there a way to absolve one's guilt (i'm not talking BIG infractions here, just little ones)...and just move one with life?  If i consent to someone (a Dom, my Dom, whathaveyou) beating me to a point beyond little spankings, and whatnot...do i get to be absolved of the infraction?  Okay, maybe it's not a *tiny* infraction, but given that i'm a newbie...maybe one that couldn't really be avoided?  i think that if a person (sub) is willing to take a punishment that is severe, they should at LEAST be absolved of any lingering bad feelings...no?




Stephann -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 9:19:23 PM)

xoxi,

Have at it.

breathesasone,

Thank you.  It worked pretty well for us while we were together.

Stephan




Stephann -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 9:34:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shellzbythesea

"I prefer not to discuss the matter too much after a punishment.   When I punish, once the punishment is done it is DONE.  I don't want any guilt or other negative feeling lingering around.

Wipe the slate clean, restore the balance, then move on. "

Okay, i suck.  i still don't know how to capture other's words like everyone has been doing. 
 
Regardless...this is of great interest to me.  i've been wondering, is there a way to absolve one's guilt (i'm not talking BIG infractions here, just little ones)...and just move one with life?  If i consent to someone (a Dom, my Dom, whathaveyou) beating me to a point beyond little spankings, and whatnot...do i get to be absolved of the infraction?  Okay, maybe it's not a *tiny* infraction, but given that i'm a newbie...maybe one that couldn't really be avoided?  i think that if a person (sub) is willing to take a punishment that is severe, they should at LEAST be absolved of any lingering bad feelings...no?


Well, briefly, to quote someone you can either hit 'quote' in the upper right hand corner of their post, and just type at the bottom....

or you can copy and paste their words into a quote box you make using the command

[ quote ] PASTE TEXT HERE [ /quote ]

(Remove the spaces between the brackets, and the word quote, and replace the Paste Text Here with...you get it, yeah.)

Absolution, isn't really something the dominant 'gives.'  Honestly, it's more something the submissive will feel, or not feel of her own accord.  There are things the dominant can do to assist in this, but that's the extent of it.

Small infractions, I would just give her 'the look'  She's clam up or back off or fix whatever needed to be fixed.  After a minute, I'd give her a smile, she'd smile, and the world would be right again.

Stephan





NefertariReborn -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 9:52:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

You said, "I've found I can be excessively harsh, with a girl I don't care enough about" - i found that disturbing.  The harshness of the puinishment should fit the offense and have nothing to do with your feelings for the girl, imo. 
 
From a subs persepctive if i was with a dom and punishment was part of our dynamic and i felt that his love for me influenced the level of punishment i got - that would not sit well with me, i would feel i had a way to manipulate him and if he indeed allowed that to happen, i would loose trust in his ability to effectively "master" me. 


I'd have to agree with Stephan.  I find I'm more patient with those I love or have feelings for.  I'm not a card carrying sadist as I've said in the past, but I CAN find that very thin streak with someone I'm not attached to.  Add that to the need for some physical punishment and I've learnt to just step away. 




angelicsubbie -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 9:56:43 PM)

Great post...I find myself personally struggling to deal with punishment lately, seeing as how i got my first real punishment <well; i don't know if i can say that, but first real punishment from my boyfriend> about 2 weeks ago, and am still upset and whatnot...but i'm also very much a perfectionist.

I don't think he realized at themoment just how upset i really was getting...and he stayed to comforrt me and whatnot, then thought things were all better, but mentally they weren't, and still aren't totally on par <to make this even better im going to my first spanking party with him tomorrow>

I think for me part of it is that I don't feel the punishment was warranted...yes, perhaps I was out of line, but he said himself that he thinks he overreacted some, and any being out of line was simply out of concern for him....

Great post; unfortunatly it hasn't helped me at all to mentally cope with the concept of punishment; though yet again I think the issue is that the punishment didn't meet the crime, and I'm worried about that happening again....

So yeah; I think its also important to understand your sub's mental state, know just how upset she is, etc.




sublimelysensual -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 10:41:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

.... If the offense is simply not severe or common enough to warrant 'fixing' than it's probably not worth getting under the hood and getting dirty.  Unlike 'play', I find 'less is best.'  Actively looking for reasons to correct and punish my slave is just a waste of effort on my part, and likely to keep her skittish and afraid to act on her own (at best.)  I also don't tend to punish for unintentional mistakes; I might mention it, just so that she can work on making sure it doesn't happen, at most...



 
    I picked this quote out of the OP because it resonates with me. It seems like a lot of Doms nowadays are on the "punishment" bandwagon, and what I don't understand about that is this. 99% of the time, if I've done something wrong, I'm well aware of it, and always upfront about it, at times confessing things the Dom in question didn't have a clue about to begin with. I can also pretty much guarantee that any punishment He could come up with would be a veeeeery distant second place to what's going on in my head. I abhor making mistakes. I'm human, I know I make them, everyone does, but I'm truly my own harshest critic. A stern reminder, or look very quickly tells me not to do so again. As far as more major errors go, I fully expect to be punished appropriately, and won't forgive myself until that happens. But for the small stuff? Sometimes it just seems like overkill. Now with a child, sometimes you need to use overkill, they may not know what they did wrong, or the consequences of doing whatever they did. As an adult, I do know, and sticking me on my knees on rice for fifteen minutes because I forgot to pick up milk (or whatever the case may be), just seems like a waste of time and energy on both parts.
 
   I can also attest to the fact that if after being punished I'm ignored, or simply told, "you were punished because of this", and then left to my own devices, it feels as though I'm still being punished. It takes it from, "you're a good slave who made a mistake", to "you're a bad slave and not worth my time right now" in sixty seconds flat. So then not only do I have the transgression on a constant loop in my head, the whole self-doubt thing kicks in as well. That isn't to say I expect the Dom to coddle and cuddle me for an hour after the event, but at least a few minutes would be nice. So I guess what I would add is to remember you're punishing for a bad action, and after you've done so the good person is still inside and may need some attention. Just my two cents, as always..
 
-a




wwsmith -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/24/2007 10:47:11 PM)

I prefer regular discipline sessions so she doesn't misbehave when she needs a spanking, she knows when she will get one & you don't end up in a misbehave-punish dynamic that spirals out

Also, adding to the regularly scheduled discipline lets her dread it for a while and maybe she can even make up for her behavior in the meantime...(probably not but it's fun to get her to try[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m13.gif[/image]).





MaamJay -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 12:38:09 AM)

Nice post Stephann, some parts resonate with Me, others don't. But I do agree, don't sweat the small stuff ... but also don't let anything pass You by today that You won't be able to put up with tomorrow. Nip it in the bud!

I am just not into the punishment thing at all. For Me it is an absolute last resort, and a sign as much as anything, that I have failed in My job as Domme to provide the needed guidance and checks and balances. I teach My sub firstly by instruction, secondly by correction (by that I mean showing how I wanted it done, or explaining what they did or said that was wrong and what would have been more acceptable ie nipping problems in the bud) and thirdly by example (as i am also sub to Master, i expect them to observe how i serve Him). I show disapproval by warning looks, warning tone and words, and an outright command of NO! STOP! if I have to. As I expect My subs to WANT to be obedient, that should suffice. However if they are outside My direct control at the time and do something they deliberately KNOW to be contrary to My rules, then punishment of some kind is warranted.

I usually make it fit (a) the crime and (b) the person. I find it crucial to know My sub well to know what would truly be displeasing to them, so that they will have no inclination to invoke punishment again. However, generally no matter what their feelings about spanking are, that is something I refuse to use as punishment ever ... because I enjoy it. I do not want to taint something I love to do (and do with love) by turning it into a punishment. Besides, I feel a punishment in which I am also "suffering" to a degree to inflict is far more effective with a loving sub, for not only will s/he be upset at what is happening to them, but they are also seeing that it is negatively impacting on Me. That provides the extra "twist of the knife" which makes it doubly effective.

So for a sub that dislikes writing, I will set a long research and essay task (where possible on the topic of the crime) ... and make a lot of fuss about taking time to "mark it". (And you can bet I'll correct every spelling mistake and make them write each out 10 times too!). For a sub that likes to be always doing something, it will be corner time ... until they are really truly repentant! And I'll mutter about how I'd like to be on the computer but now I have to supervise them etc etc. For a sub that enjoys things like computer time, movies etc it will be deprivation of that privilege. But I will set them a chore that I will then supervise, so I am missing out too. You get the idea! It generally works well.

However, once the punishment is over, I agree, I will have one last debriefing chat about it, focusing on how it made them feel and how they're feeling now. Then I accept their apology, and state that it's now over, closed. And remind them they are not to continue beating themselves up about it as that's a form of topping from the bottom and I won't have that! That usually does the trick. Of course, this is predicated on the sub being someone who genuinely WANTS to please, you'd need different strategies for a bratty sub ... but I am absolutely not interested in those these days!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]




bandit25 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 2:47:07 AM)

A couple of things...

angelicsubbie:  My advice would be to let it go.  Doms aren't perfect...no one is.  If he said he may have overreacted, he recognizes it and prolly will be more careful to avoid it happening again.  If you think he doesn't realize just how upset you are/were, tell him.  Just tell him.  Talk to the man.  He most likely doesn't know.

stephann:  I really enjoy reading your posts and, most of the time, they have some very good advice/common sense.  However, in these posts you've likened a sub (perhaps,, your sub) to a child twice.  Is that how you think of her?  Within the confines of punishment that is.  I know many doms feel that way and I don't understand that.  Putting aside bratty subs or those who simply don't care, if your sub does something "wrong", does she become childlike in your eyes? 




spankmepink11 -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 5:50:50 AM)

For me, pain play has absolutely nothing to do with punishment.   I'd have to agree with Bandit  that the OP likens  his  approach to a submissive to that of a child.  We're all adults, or should be at least. 

In my little piece of the world, i tend to concentrate a great deal on pleasing my partner, so i can't even fathom being with someone whose goal is to seek reasons to "punish" me.  

As to the question of  being more harsh with someone  who you do not care as much about or have a deep connection with..
I've heard men chime in on both sides of that coin.  One gentleman that i had a bit of a crush on, discovered me on a bdsm type venue, we got to talking about it, and he stated, that he liked me too much to ever engage in any rough activity with me, he said he could only get to that place with someone he didn't care about.

To each their own i suppose...





slaveish -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 6:04:36 AM)

Gawwd, Stephen.

I'm not pain puppy in any sense of the phrase, and you make me want to be in your girl's position. ~silly grin~ I'd gladly deal with the pain to get to that level of caring.




Sabella -> RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing called Love (8/25/2007 6:08:18 AM)

Beautifully written Stephan! Thank you! I know what you mean tho about dicipline & not being in love, perhaps a twist on it would be it's harder to be harsh when you love them. I think your approach to aftercare is a terrific one, some of us do tend to dwell too much in the moment and a little talk afterwards helps keep things grounded.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I agree; I don't like guilt to linger.  It's why I discuss it (especially the first couple times) to make it clear, there is no need for guilt in the first place. 

I think humility has a huge role to play in this vein.

Stephan

Could you clarify what you mean here by humility has a huge role to play? It's early & I'm on my first cup of coffee, :D

EDIT: I don't construe that you are treating or thinking of your girl as a "child". The wording is very clear "like a child". A common complaint amongst subs/slaves is that they received punishment for what they felt was no reason, and for no warning. This is easily remedied if "like a child" they are told X is unacceptable behavior, and Y will be the consequence. There may be tears and wailing afterwards but they can't say "I didn't know".




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