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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 7:50:32 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

The way I see the OP, if your relationship is so fragile that acting out one time is going to wreck it, than no matter how many years you put into it, it wasnt all that good to begin with.  It would greatly depend on what that willful disobedience was, and the reason behind it. For all our best intentions, occasionaly we are incorrect and if that act of willful disobedience contradicts a command that was wrong (wether you knew it yet or not) it is far more forgivable tha something done simply becasue they didnt feel like it.
If someone defies you once, you correct the behavior and make sure it is well understood that there will only be one chance given. The punishment should fit the offense, and they should be reminded how lucky they are you didnt end it when they thought their own wil was more important than yours. But throwing away years of work and emotion and devotion becasue of one offense is not being Dominant.  It is almost like backing off, and letting the sub know you are not strong enough to master them, that your power crumbles at the smallest challenge. It takes a stronger person to take the situation in hand and reaffirm their position in the power dynamic than it does someone to throw their hands up and say they are done.

My humble opinion of course

DV




You humble opinion is very welcome and very practical. I understand what you are saying.

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 7:58:13 PM   
submittous


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: submittous

Well that is a conflict for you then, you say you want M/s and complete obedience but don't want to enfore the rules to get it... that's not really a conflict of interest, it's a conflict in reality.

I don't think you can have both... If you can't enforce your rules in the end you will not have obedience from your slave.




But we are not talking about enforcing the rules. We are talking about ending a relationship. If one ends the relationship, then there is no more rules to enforce. Its simply over.

I have no problem enforcing my own rules. To enforce them, I would still have to be in a relationship that had rules. No relationship, no rules.




I guess I misunderstand, when you said you live by the axiom "obey or leave" and expected your slave to do the same that that constituted a rule.  sorry...

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 7:58:20 PM   
kyraofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: devotedsylph
She might have a perfectly valid reason for willfully disobeying.  For example, she might be in a situation that requires her to decide to override your command because of extenuating circumstances.  If she's with her mother, and her mother has a heart attack, and she's in the hospital but she can't reach you decides to stay there instead of being home at curfew, that's willfully disobeying.  Is that something you'd end your relationship over?


For us, this would not be willfully disobedience.  I have what we call standing orders and many of them have a priority level so if one contradicts another, I know which one to follow.

The highest priority is to keep myself from harm.  Another standing order is that I am to take care of my inherent responsibilities, i.e. family, work, etc. 

In the case of my mom being in the hospital and causing me to miss curfew and I cannot reach him, it would not be willful disobedience to miss curfew and stay with my mom.  Taking care of my mother as long as it does not harm me has a higher priority for him than being home on time.

This is where it is important for the master to communicate with the slave what his priorities are.  If I am unable to reach him to resolve a conflict in instructions, I am capable of making the decision by myself because I understand his priorities.  If I happen to make a decision that he did not like, we would discuss it so that I know in the future what choice to make.

Knight's Kyra

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 8:02:36 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: submittous

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: submittous

Well that is a conflict for you then, you say you want M/s and complete obedience but don't want to enfore the rules to get it... that's not really a conflict of interest, it's a conflict in reality.

I don't think you can have both... If you can't enforce your rules in the end you will not have obedience from your slave.




But we are not talking about enforcing the rules. We are talking about ending a relationship. If one ends the relationship, then there is no more rules to enforce. Its simply over.

I have no problem enforcing my own rules. To enforce them, I would still have to be in a relationship that had rules. No relationship, no rules.




I guess I misunderstand, when you said you live by the axiom "obey or leave" and expected your slave to do the same that that constituted a rule.  sorry...


Well, to explain better, that axion is a contingency that holds the relationship together, not a rule. Hence with out that contignency of "No willful disobedience", there is no dynamic and there is no relationships.

I would define rules as what describes the boundaries in the relationship.

But if that contignecy were to be broken, it would present the conflict of possible losing a power dynamic vs losing a partner you have grown attached to and close to.

Thats what the discussion is about.

Edited to Add : My orginal stance was basically which is more important to you? The power or the relationship? But many posts here have shown my own flaws in this line of thinking and shown that the two are basically linked.


< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 8/26/2007 8:05:31 PM >

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 8:07:39 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NControlofU

My slave has defied me once before and I didn't choose to throw her out.  It took me too much time and effort to find one that satisfied all of my needs.  When she defied me, it was over a simple order for her to remove the butt plug I had stuck in her ass hours earlier.  I told her take it out right there in the living room and she apologized and said she just couldn't do it there.  She wasnt beligerent about it.  She was apologetic and embarased that she couldn't do it.  I asked her to explain why and she told me that it was her concern about possible being seen by another member of the family who was in the back part of the house at the time and she wanted to go to the bathroom to take it out in private.  I understood her concern and told her that she could go to the bathroom to take it out but she was going to be punished for refusing to do what I had told her to do.  I punished her the next day and she has never refused me anything since then.  It would take something much more serious than her simply defying me to cause me to throw her out. 


For me there is a few things of this given situation.

first.. I don't actually see it as willfull disobedience.  But the way it was communicated is not appropriate in my dynamic.  IE..given the exact same situation... my girls..  would of asked to provide me with information.  They then would make me aware of the family member and also their fears.  This allows me to know their preception of a given situation.  which means that I have ALL the information possible for the given sitaution.

Second... with this information.. I just may give the same order.  Take it out Now... or.. I just might tell them go to the bathroom... given the situation... I would of likely done the same thing.  Yes... go to the bathroom.  I would not of seen Disobedience... but actually my girl giving me all the information possible so I can make the best decision possible.

third... I definitely would not of reprimand or punish her.  for not wanting to take it out in the living room... especially if I allowed her to go to the bathroom afterwards.  

It simple.. The don't refuse.... but they are obligated to give me their perspectives if they see an issue with my command.  I am not all knowing... I can't read minds.  So I establish a protocal in my slaves seeking clarification and/or ask to providing information to me with regards to any decision I make.

Like you.. I don't want to spend time teaching my slaves how I wish them to behave only to kick them out if they defie me.  I avoid this by ensuring that they have no reason to refuse me.  I do it by ensuring that I make the decision on the as much of the information as possible.  But like others... Saying No to me is not an option.

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 8:08:16 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NControlofU

My slave has defied me once before and I didn't choose to throw her out.  It took me too much time and effort to find one that satisfied all of my needs.  When she defied me, it was over a simple order for her to remove the butt plug I had stuck in her ass hours earlier.  I told her take it out right there in the living room and she apologized and said she just couldn't do it there.  She wasnt beligerent about it.  She was apologetic and embarased that she couldn't do it.  I asked her to explain why and she told me that it was her concern about possible being seen by another member of the family who was in the back part of the house at the time and she wanted to go to the bathroom to take it out in private.  I understood her concern and told her that she could go to the bathroom to take it out but she was going to be punished for refusing to do what I had told her to do.  I punished her the next day and she has never refused me anything since then.  It would take something much more serious than her simply defying me to cause me to throw her out.  Punishment works well for those sorts of infractions of my rules.  She adds much more to my life than a simple refusal to obey takes away.  As long as she continues to add to my life I will keep her and not be too concerned over an occasional refusal.  But it also depends on her attitude when shes refusing me.  If she is doing it in a respectful manner like before and with some reasonable explantion to back it up, I can live with that.  If she were to get ignorant and disrespecful about it and have some sort of drama fit about it and have no good reason for it that would be a problem and I would have to seriusly question her abot whether or not she still wanted to be my slave.  If she said that she did I would punish her and tell her that she wold have to straighten up or she would be jepardizing her place in my life and in my home.  She knows I cant stand drama or disrespect.  I woudl see how things went after that.  If she didn't straighten up and she began to act up more and more to the point that she was being more difficult than I wanted to deal with I would tell her that she would have to find a new home.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

The recent thread regarding "SLAVE VS SUB" got me to thinking so I have a hypothetical situation to present to the group regarding an M/S relationship.

For the purposes of this hypothetical situation, I'll need to establish a definition for the dynamic of the M/S relationship. I realize we have a multitude of different styles and dynamics on this forum, but for the parameters of this discussion I am using the most common definition I see which is also my own.

I work off the axion of "Obey or Leave". The contigency that makes my M/S relationship an M/S relationship is that the slave cannot willfully defy me. By willfully defying me, she is saying that she is no longer my slave. Without this contigency, we're simply another vanilla couple.

The hypothetical situation is that you are a Master in such a relationship and the relationship has lasted for several years (This situation wont be hypothetical for all people, of course). Then, one day a problem occurs and the slave willfully defys you.

How would you handle it?

Would you throw away a relationship that has extended years for the sake of perserving your own power/authority?

Or would there be alternative methods you would try to keeping the relationship and dynamic going and intact?



I would have to agree with this reply..Of course this is coming from my definition of a submissive mindset..However, if the sub/slave respectfully explains reasoning for her refusal and it has merit, and legitimate concerns, then one would have to wonder why a Master/Dominant would find the dispoal of the sub/slave to be so easily accomplished. A dynamic of many years, should IMO warrant a attempt to communicate, and work through the difficulty.For as we all know, any relationship wether vanilla or D/s is hard work . And to be thought of as so easily disposed of because of maybe a legitimate refusal is to me rather indicative of todays societel idealogy of the disposable life.Use it once..throw it away...do Masters truly find submissives so easily disposed of? Are we simply a commodity that can be tossed aside when a bump in the road happens? Are we held so cheaply that we are like a tissue from a box of Kleenex?........Tempting

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 8:11:55 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

And to be thought of as so easily disposed of because of maybe a legitimate refusal is to me rather indicative of todays societel idealogy of the disposable life.Use it once..throw it away...do Masters truly find submissives so easily disposed of? Are we simply a commodity that can be tossed aside when a bump in the road happens? Are we held so cheaply that we are like a tissue from a box of Kleenex?........Tempting


Well, this goes to the heart of what I am talking about and why I introduced this discussion. This can be the flaw in this kind of line of thinking.

Edited to Add : Some might call a person with this line of thinking a "fool in love with power".

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 8/26/2007 8:13:32 PM >

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 8:17:59 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		Work past it.

My thinking is that I have spent time and energy cultivating the relationship, and cultivating her as a slave.  One momentary screw up and all is done?  To my mind, that is rather profligate.

Additionally, in applying such a scenario to real life, I have to question the parameters you laid out.  Problems do not rise up in an instant, but build from a variety of sources over some period of time.  In the ideal situation, I should recognize the issues well in advance of the rebellion and take steps to avoid that situation. 

Case in point--when my slave is experiencing a period of anxiety, as happens from time to time, if I ignore her anxiety, it will bubble over into a  fit of temper and disobedience. 

Is she willfully disobedient at that point?  Yes.  Is it how she wishes to be?  No. 

Now, if I see that she is experiencing a period of anxiety, I also have the option of choosing not to ignore it.  I can inquire about it, I can give her leave to vent whatever anger she's feeling, I can do a number of things to defuse her anxiety BEFORE she crosses that line into willful disobedience.  (Much of the training I have put into her to date has been in learning how to articulate her emotional states before they become a problem, so that we may avoid dealing with the negative consequences of disobedience and disrespect).

Following your hypothetical scenario of "obey or leave"--she would have been released after the first fit of temper.  That may be fine in the hypothetical, but in the reality of my relationship with her, that's not an option.  I don't throw people away, as a rule, and where she's concerned I'm going to fight like hell to keep her.

What I will do depends on the particulars of the act.  There will be a consequence, for such is unavoidable, but I reserve the decision as to what the consequence will be until after the disobedient act has occurred.  Leaving, however, is the consequence of last resort, when disobedience is not merely willful, but also persistent and repetitive.




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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 8:20:32 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

How would you handle it?

Would you throw away a relationship that has extended years for the sake of perserving your own power/authority?

Or would there be alternative methods you would try to keeping the relationship and dynamic going and intact?



Very early on in our relationship (I have belonged to him for 3 years; this incident occurred when I had belonged to him for a month), I disobeyed an order.  It was a simple order, and a situation where I thought he would understand why I disobeyed it.  He did not.  I remember the consequences for that act as if it were yesterday. 

He has never said "Say no and you are shown the door."  He did make it clear from the beginning, however, that were my behavior ever to be deemed unfixable by him, he would see no point in keeping me.

When that particular incident was over, he had a clear understanding of my thought process and what led me to the incorrect conclusion I had, and I had a clear understanding of his ways of running this relationship.  We were so newly into it, and were still learning each other.  And I had a LOT of baggage and insecurities to work through.  Since he saw my very real remorse and my efforts at getting it right, he did not deem my behavior to be unfixable, and, thankfully, continued on with me.

That has been the trend since then.  I do not defy his orders, but I have done things he wouldn't have wanted me to do.  Most were mistakes, and some were just really bad judgements on my part.  In one particular case long ago, my judgement proved to be so poor that he did question whether or not he should keep me, and in fact had me undergo the exercise of deciding whether or not I really want to belong to him. He also delved into my mind to understand what brought me to make the decision I did.  It was truly painful and unforgettable, and marked the beginning of some serious changes in me.  It was a turning point, actually, and I saw the light.  Since that time, I have focused intently on who and what he is to me, and who and what I am to him, and I have learned that if I'm to be true to myself, then I am to live up to what we both define a slave to be.

To this day I thank him for keeping me after that ordeal.  I also thank two very good friends at that time who provided mentorship and wisdom, and helped me see myself from an outside perspective.  The result is a solid relationship he and I both enjoy, and a growing level of devotion and gratitude on my part that will forever keep me wanting only his will.

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 8:21:39 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Additionally, in applying such a scenario to real life, I have to question the parameters you laid out.  Problems do not rise up in an instant, but build from a variety of sources over some period of time.  In the ideal situation, I should recognize the issues well in advance of the rebellion and take steps to avoid that situation. 



The reason why I laid out these specific parameters is that these parameters are often the ones decribied here on these forums. My intentions of this discussion was to move past the theoritical that is often talked about here and into the reality.

Your post has certainly done that. Thank you.

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 8:23:02 PM   
NControlofU


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Status: offline 		This incident happened only a few months into my slave being in my house and it was a lesson to me in dealing with her.  I have since then instilled in her the need to speak up and keep me informed of issues that could interfere with her ability to follow my directives.  I had to work long and hard to get her to stop holding things in and to tell me when she had concerns.  Punishing her helped to reinforce the need for her do what I say as well as to tell me when something was causing her concern or conflict about obeying me.  I am after all a reasonable man and understand that there are times when a directive needs to be modified for the good of all.  I agree that it wasnt deliberate willfull disbedianc.  I enjoyed punishing her anyway and she enjoyed it too.
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: NControlofU

My slave has defied me once before and I didn't choose to throw her out.  It took me too much time and effort to find one that satisfied all of my needs.  When she defied me, it was over a simple order for her to remove the butt plug I had stuck in her ass hours earlier.  I told her take it out right there in the living room and she apologized and said she just couldn't do it there.  She wasnt beligerent about it.  She was apologetic and embarased that she couldn't do it.  I asked her to explain why and she told me that it was her concern about possible being seen by another member of the family who was in the back part of the house at the time and she wanted to go to the bathroom to take it out in private.  I understood her concern and told her that she could go to the bathroom to take it out but she was going to be punished for refusing to do what I had told her to do.  I punished her the next day and she has never refused me anything since then.  It would take something much more serious than her simply defying me to cause me to throw her out. 


For me there is a few things of this given situation.

first.. I don't actually see it as willfull disobedience.  But the way it was communicated is not appropriate in my dynamic.  IE..given the exact same situation... my girls..  would of asked to provide me with information.  They then would make me aware of the family member and also their fears.  This allows me to know their preception of a given situation.  which means that I have ALL the information possible for the given sitaution.

Second... with this information.. I just may give the same order.  Take it out Now... or.. I just might tell them go to the bathroom... given the situation... I would of likely done the same thing.  Yes... go to the bathroom.  I would not of seen Disobedience... but actually my girl giving me all the information possible so I can make the best decision possible.

third... I definitely would not of reprimand or punish her.  for not wanting to take it out in the living room... especially if I allowed her to go to the bathroom afterwards.  

It simple.. The don't refuse.... but they are obligated to give me their perspectives if they see an issue with my command.  I am not all knowing... I can't read minds.  So I establish a protocal in my slaves seeking clarification and/or ask to providing information to me with regards to any decision I make.

Like you.. I don't want to spend time teaching my slaves how I wish them to behave only to kick them out if they defie me.  I avoid this by ensuring that they have no reason to refuse me.  I do it by ensuring that I make the decision on the as much of the information as possible.  But like others... Saying No to me is not an option.

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 8:27:26 PM   
KnightofMists


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Status: offline 		Tempting... why is it so easy to accept and understand that if a person cheats that the relationships is rightfully doomed and should be ended?  Why is it so easy to understand that individuals hold fidelity as a fundamental commitment to a relationship?  But, the idea of Obedience being a fundamental commitment to a relationship should be less important?

aaaaaawww common honey... I know I fucked her... but I didn't love her... so what's the big deal... I will never see her again anyways. 

It doesn;t work for those that have Fidelity as their bedrock... and saying No is not acceptalbe for people that have Obedience as their bedrock.  A great example is Merc... not only does he not accept any Disobedience... but he will not even accept his slave using any word with "N" and "O" together.  Frankly, I think this particular protocal is fanastic.  He is constantly reinforcing his slave that No is not an Option.  At the same time... Merc and Beth have built an incredible relaitonship for themselves.  I would suspect that Disobedience would be as likely for them winning the lottery ( and they didn't buy any tickets). 

As Madrabbit is rightly understands... in a relationship that is healthy the propect of Willful disobedience is just not an issue.  The idea is to have a healthy relationship in the first place....

As Kyra has related.. she had issues dealing with the concept... but the issues was a sign that we had work to do on the relationship.. in her situation.. it was about building security and donfidence.  to bring certainity!  Now.. the concept is not a threat... in fact.. it's not an issue at all.

editted to add...

Ok just discovered that Merc was pulling our leg about the "N" "O" part.. but he doesn't allow her to say No to him.  which is not as great as the joke.... but still damn good!

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 8/26/2007 8:45:00 PM >

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 8:28:28 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
The other side of the equation is them being self-aware enough to truly understand what they want. If they are disceiving themselves... as the illussion is exposed... again.. instability will occur.


As the illusion is exposed, instability occurs--no argument there.  However, self-awareness is not a constant, but something that (hopefully) grows throughout one's life.  Does this growth also breed instability, and if it does, how do you deal with it?


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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 8:30:59 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NControlofU

This incident happened only a few months into my slave being in my house and it was a lesson to me in dealing with her.  I have since then instilled in her the need to speak up and keep me informed of issues that could interfere with her ability to follow my directives.  I had to work long and hard to get her to stop holding things in and to tell me when she had concerns.  Punishing her helped to reinforce the need for her do what I say as well as to tell me when something was causing her concern or conflict about obeying me.  I am after all a reasonable man and understand that there are times when a directive needs to be modified for the good of all.  I agree that it wasnt deliberate willfull disbedianc.  I enjoyed punishing her anyway and she enjoyed it too.


Thanks for sharing.. that is one thing I have learned and keep learning... that sometimes my own protocals or lack of such... set my girls up to fail.  I establish the expectation .. and communicate the expectation... but sometimes.. there is a flaw and damn they are good at finding the flaws.  Which is great.... because I make alot better decisions as a result.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 8:33:15 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Tempting... why is it so easy to accept and understand that if a person cheats that the relationships is rightfully doomed and should be ended?  Why is it so easy to understand that individuals hold fidelity as a fundamental commitment to a relationship?  But, the idea of Obedience being a fundamental commitment to a relationship should be less important?

aaaaaawww common honey... I know I fucked her... but I didn't love her... so what's the big deal... I will never see her again anyways. 

It doesn;t work for those that have Fidelity as their bedrock... and saying No is not acceptalbe for people that have Obedience as their bedrock.  A great example is Merc... not only does he not accept any Disobedience... but he will not even accept his slave using any word with "N" and "O" together.  Frankly, I think this particular protocal is fanastic.  He is constantly reinforcing his slave that No is not an Option.  At the same time... Merc and Beth have built an incredible relaitonship for themselves.  I would suspect that Disobedience would be as likely for them winning the lottery ( and they didn't buy any tickets). 

As Madrabbit is rightly understands... in a relationship that is healthy the propect of Willful disobedience is just not an issue.  The idea is to have a healthy relationship in the first place....

As Kyra has related.. she had issues dealing with the concept... but the issues was a sign that we had work to do on the relationship.. in her situation.. it was about building security and donfidence.  to bring certainity!  Now.. the concept is not a threat... in fact.. it's not an issue at all.


I really like the analogy of Obedience to Fidelatity. Its given me a new way of thinking about this issue.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 8:42:30 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
The other side of the equation is them being self-aware enough to truly understand what they want. If they are disceiving themselves... as the illussion is exposed... again.. instability will occur.


As the illusion is exposed, instability occurs--no argument there.  However, self-awareness is not a constant, but something that (hopefully) grows throughout one's life.  Does this growth also breed instability, and if it does, how do you deal with it?



very true... self-awareness is indeed very fuild.... but at it's deepest.. the currents are much less likely to change as compared to the surface issues.

I think for many growth and change has an opportunity to breed instablity.  In my case... as of yet.. it has not.  To be honest.. I can't say why it hasn't..  Maybe because.. I fundamentall embrace change and growth... I expect it... and my perspective .. I see it as a challange and an opportunity and not a threat or concern.  So maybe my approach to growth and change insulates me to the instablity that many may experience from it.  Maybe because the change and growth I have been apart of was not in the very core but on the surface.  I can't say with experience or even theorize what would occur if Change or Growth at the core would cause in my relationships.... it is very likely it could result in an instability of the relationship.

After a couple moment.. I realize that the only change that could be consider at the core of things was the evolution of my relationship with Alandra going from Monogamist to Poly.  From almost the beginning... alandra was expecting and even wanting to share me.  She was poly oriented.  Myself... I was Monogamist oriented.  Obviously.. I changed.  Some may consider this a core aspect of myself.  I myself am not so sure.  There was no instability during this time within our relationship.  In fact... we became closer as the growth and changed occurred.  In large part... I believe it was the deep openness and sharing of thoughts and feelings during this time that might of contributed to such a incredible growth experience and of course result in change in my life that I never imaged.

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 9:03:55 PM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline 		Awesome topic MadRabbit!  I find myself in situation that is similar in nature at this point in time with somebody.  Many of you are aware of it, some of you guys ain't.  But it was a long distance thing going on between me and somebody else.

Anyways, she basically threw her "submission" down before me feet.  I had the option of accepting it or to decline.  Sure, I had second thoughts about accepting it, that perhaps it was too soon or early.  I also thought, if I decline, then there's all the fun rejection issues.  A few other things I thought as well.  Anyways, life is a bit of a gamble, and I decided what the hell.

Now, within a week, an issue came up between us.  She even admitted she had been a bad girl and needed to be punished.  Anyways, I wanted to get down to the issue behind her behavior.  She expressed she felt lost without having rules.  OK, I came up with some workable rules and clear expectations.  Amazing this only increased my own expecations of her.   Meaning having the expectation of Rule # whatever on the list to be obeyed and followed.  

Simply put rules were not being followed, now I played the punishment game, I also tried to get to the root of her misbehaviors with communication.  I even did the lecture thing and every damn thing else I could humanly do as a dom.  My personal frustration levels were starting to rise. 

What does one do with anybody who disobeys and does what they want?  The D/s relationship itself ends.  Why, because D/s is not working.  After many hours of debate, I felt it was best to back everything up.  Go more vanilla one-on-one without the D/s and rules going on.   Basically, she was doing whatever she wanted regardless.  Yes, she even lied to me. 

Now, I could have simply walked away from this.  However, I still wanted to get to the root issues of her disobeince and even some of her stupid excuses or lies.  Just because I'm in vanilla mode with somebody, make no excuse I'm still a Dom. I just tossed out this Illusion of a LD D/s relationship going on.  Took the expectations away from her, along with the pressure it might be causing.  Basically, the rules resulted in the increase of cheap excuses and lies.

Basically, I was able to reassert myself in Vanilla Dom mode.  In terms of preserving power/authority, I'm fine as long as somebody does not try to assert power/authority over me.  However, this does not mean I won't assert myself, make no mistake about it.  I was once in a relationship with a Domme, doing the power couple thing.  Not going into details about how that works, some of you understand how it works and others are confused by how Dom couples relationships work.

So, this is my alternative approach to toss D/s out the window.  She what I'm dealing with on a one-on-one basis here.  It's makes it a level playing field.  Plus I won't get pissed off when somebody Attempts to pull a manipulative or otherwise topping from the bottom attempt.   Don't get me wrong still not letting another person top me, just not in a mode where I would get upset at an attempt at it.  Basically, no expectations for her to play by a list of rules.   

Anyways, I wanted her to come clean with me on several things, and reasons behind her not obeying.  Basically, I was not letting go of the root problems.  I wanted and expected and deserved the truth.  Anyways push to shove without the D/s.  Ok, no other option.  Time to pack it all in.  Everything is over between us.  She asked me if we still could be friends.  MMMmmm... Nope, sorry I'm cutting all ties completely.  She was not coming clean with me and doing what I felt were games at times.  If she was not willing to come clean and start communicating, I wanted nothing to do with at at all, not even as a friend.   I'm sorry, I want friends that are at somewhat honest and I can trust. 

4-5 days pass, I get a call phone her.  She apologizes from here to Hell and back again.  She actually spills out some truth and admits to some shit.  Then shares with me her her biggest hangups and realizes the damage her problems have caused.  

Anyways, I find myself at this moment in time with no high expectations, and yes I looking for some follow through and actions on her end.   Right now, through at least I know what the issues were, what her problems are, and the reasons behind feeding me so many excuses and lines of bullshit.  I don't like it all, but I do understand it.   At the very least, she ended up finally breaking down and coming clean with me.  She had to face something ugly about herself and her life as well. 

I would be really Amazed, if things got any better or went somewhere between her and I. 

You know what I actually bumped into somebody online, that I really appreciate and like.  Actually, communication has been really easy and natural between us. No red flags either.  I know I gave another person every chance humanly possible that I could give.   

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 9:14:57 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

The hypothetical situation is that you are a Master in such a relationship and the relationship has lasted for several years (This situation wont be hypothetical for all people, of course). Then, one day a problem occurs and the slave willfully defys you.

How would you handle it?


It would disband the dynamic.  I would agree with submittous.  It would be defiling to the nature of the dynamic if one were to say, "This is how it will be" then to have this contradicted.  Perhaps the former slave may default to a sub position, but she has lost her slave status.

The need you mention for maintaining power of the former slave inspiring concessions strikes me as asking one if he would be desperate enough to act against his own word.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 9:21:03 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Whip- you know SOME reasons, and you know for at least a little while she went to her last resort to keep your attention.  Getting a person who is honest as a last resort to turn into a person who is honest naturally is a really long and difficult process.  The person almost immediately will retreat back into their shell and completely deny the problem until they again reach that point of desperation- at every step of progress.

Or they keep sucking you into the therapy game so you keep "helping" them more and more while they don't really make much progress at all or make YOUR life any better.

But, to the topic at hand, I agree with Owned and I think about that other girl in Ask a Sub wondering if her dom "cheated" on her by going out with someone else and not telling her.  Even the best relationships come up against things they haven't had to deal with before.  One hopes the dynamic itself is flexible and strong enough to roll with it.  To simply reject someone due to a communication flaw seems fairly self-destructive. 

Or, in other words, I'm the type of dom who would ask WHY there was willful disobedience before I made any decision either way.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 8/26/2007 9:29:56 PM >

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/26/2007 9:23:45 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		KOM..I can certainly understand that obedience can be the bedrock of the relationship. But with that in mind, I can also see where sometimes there may be exception to the rule..Man cannot cover all contingencies that life may throw at him.But as you also stated you work with your girls upon the information they give you, so as to make best possible decision. I too subscribed in my response to the thought of respectfully providing reason for refusal, ie: more information..So are we not coming from same mindset of communication?..But possibly you were responding to my worry of disposable submissives?..I can certainly understand that you would find disobedience horrifying as I would cheating. However,if one has a relationship of a long term basis, would you not first figure out why this refusal? why at this time? what had maybe precipitated it? and is it repairable?..then just simply say "end of relationship"..I can imagine that it could give a submissive a sense of constantly being on the precipice of rejection, of worrying over that mistake or maybe even that worrisome refusal that somehow a wall has been hit, that they cannot overcome as easily as you had wished..so then poof!..out they go for hitting that wall..rather than being helped over it...Tempting

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