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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/28/2007 4:00:48 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

You bring up a couple of good points.  One is an understanding of the slave is needed in order to not set them up to fail and that navigating this path is easier done if you are experienced in doing it.


This actually ties in to what I said in the discipline/punishment thread, as it is one of the fundamental points in CBT: humans register failure (or, at least, certain kinds of failure) much more strongly than successes, so any cognitive retraining, behavioural modification et al, should ideally use an approach that builds successes upon successes, which may be slow going, but gives very lasting benefits. Similarly, limits are dealt with by combining incremental desensitization with these incremental successes, which can even lead to former hard limits becoming favoured activities.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/28/2007 4:07:44 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

I'm not speaking for you, I'm telling you what I believe to be true about people who use the threat of leaving as a way to control people. It is a very common form of emotional blackmail. I am having a really hard time seeing them as dominant over anything.


I would tend to agree, although I think perhaps you missed a subtle nuance of what they meant by it. From my impression, it's not a question of terminating the relationship if disobedience occurs, but rather that, in the context of a cooperative dynamic, willful disobedience breaks out of the dynamic. If that dynamic is the only thing a relationship is built on, then there is de facto no relationship when the dynamic breaks. Which is not to say one cannot work to reestablish it.

In a setting of more literal slavery, as you have described elsewhere, that may not work the same way.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to BeingChewsie)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/28/2007 4:13:29 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

As Knight mentioned and Kyra expounded on, I see a difference between willful disobedience and refusal to obey. In my D/s relationship with hard limits, my giving an order to my submissive to do something that goes against her hard limits and having her say "No" would not be considered willful disobedience, it would be a refusal to obey an "illegal" order (just as soldiers are allowed to refuse to obey an order that they know is illegal). Balking (hesitating) at performing a "legal" order is not disobedience, it is a hesitation and an indication that some discussion needs to take place.


You raise a point here that has not really been addressed or at least an address by myself, which is Dominant Responsibility.

As Kyra stated... there is a certain expectations I have of my girls in the obedience of my commands.  However, that is not to say their is not a Responsibility to myself in the issuing of commands.  Willful Disobedience will result in a slave removing consent and as such will no longer be my slave.  The flip side is Willful Disregard!  It is completely unacceptable for me to issue any command that would knowingly HARM my girls.  In the moment I issue such a command, I have immediately disregarded my responsibilities to my slave.  As such, I have removed myself as their Master. 

The key aspect to all of this is Knowingly Defying or Disregarding the other.  The focus of all us is on the relationship and not for the singular benefit of one.  As Merc has stated on many occassions... Him and beth serve the relationship.  I can appreciate and understand this mindset, It's one that I share.  The relationship is bigger than the ego or identity of single person within it.

Thanks CD for raising in this discussion the other half of the coin.


_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/28/2007 4:16:15 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile
My mind is spinning now...
Tonight is the night I finally learn or discover the truth, this folllows up with my earlier posting on this thread, and a couple of threads I've created in the last couple of monthes. 

As fate would have it, this one I've been having a struggle with is "Married", however she's had a bad abusive marriage and her husband has terminal cancer.  She has been dealing with a lot and not sharing all this with me.  All of which I know is not good, to be lied to.  However, this brings complete and suddenly clarity to everything.  Like I tried to tell her a 100 times over, the truth always comes out eventually. 

There are some many thoughts on my mind at this hour it's not funny.   Within the last couple of weeks I did met somebody new that has caught my attention, and even interests.  Yes, somebody I really like.

There's a lot that can be said for closing and opening doors in life.  Well I got the holy grail truth...  my head is spinning.  A lot can be said about throwing things away or working past it.   A human element of do we give on somebody, completely throw them out of our lives or work past it, perhaps turning it into a simple friendship.

See everything about this is a huge screaming blinking red LED billboard sign saying "Not in a place to start a new serious commitment"  The mere fact that it's abusive to me says that she needs to choose to stay or leave that situation before she can commit to ANYTHING else.


blinking lights  and roaring sirens..... all I can add is.....

She lied before on countless things...  what is to say their is more lies !!!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/28/2007 4:23:03 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

Kyra:...I thought upon this subject last night, for a while..and I agree..I may have been confusing inabilty to obey to wilful disobedience..But I think also that in some dynamics an order will be given, that may betray a possible "hard limit"or even a "frightening limit"..an almost set up for the failure of the order..Now I do not know the agreements if any that you and KOM may have in place. I suspect none..but while I do gleen from your postings that KOM is a responsible, caring man, who would never "set " you up for failure and has encouraged a good dialogue, there are some Dominants who may not be as "experienced"..or even reasonable to what could be important info being supplied, or even an attempt on the Dominants part to push that envelope a little too fast and furious...I think most of my difficulty with this issue is simply my fears of one day coming across an order that may cause me to refuse..maybe this is my wall.....maybe this is my own personal demon....Thank You for your clarification..Tempting


All I can say Tempting is becareful who you give yourself to and suggest that a good clue would be the standard he holds himself to.... Expect no less and definitely accept no more.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/28/2007 5:24:23 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
I'm not speaking for you, I'm telling you what I believe to be true about people who use the threat of leaving as a way to control people. It is a very common form of emotional blackmail. I am having a really hard time seeing them as dominant over anything.


I agree that it is possible for it to be blackmail and there are many things that can be used as emotional blackmail if the motivation is there, but I know it isn't true in every case.  It is not true in my relationship, so I know that this type of relationship can exist without emotional blackmail.  The motivation of the person is what determines if it is emotional blackmail or not.

When we started our relationship we talked about the things that were deal breakers for both of us.  He knows my deal breakers (the big ones are being betrayed and intentionally being harmed).  I know his deal breaker (defying his authority).  Is it emotional blackmail when people know that if they intentionally harm their partner that they will leave the relationship?  I know a great many relationships where this is a deal breaker and no one feels emotionally blackmailed.

For him to intentionally harm me, he would have to have a huge shift in his character.  For me to defy his authority I would have to have a huge shift in my character.  Neither are likely to happen.  The concept of ending the relationship by defying his authority is something that we rarely talk about.  It was something discussed in depth before starting our relationship and it was up to me to make the choice to accept it or not.  For the most part we only talk about it on the boards because it is a topic that is frequently discussed.

But I suspect that actually hearing a firsthand account of a person who lives in this type of a relationship without any emotional blackmail existing is unlikely to alter your opinion. 

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/28/2007 9:18:46 PM   
FyreAngel


Posts: 55
Status: offline 		i think willfull disobediance signifies a bigger problem in the relationship.  Cause and effect.  Generally the cause of some one willfulling going against the grain of a relationship is a fatal flaw.  Those fatal flaws are almost impossible to work past and will only continue creating more problems in the relationship.  Least of all being willfull disobediance.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 12:43:34 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

As Knight mentioned and Kyra expounded on, I see a difference between willful disobedience and refusal to obey. In my D/s relationship with hard limits, my giving an order to my submissive to do something that goes against her hard limits and having her say "No" would not be considered willful disobedience, it would be a refusal to obey an "illegal" order (just as soldiers are allowed to refuse to obey an order that they know is illegal). Balking (hesitating) at performing a "legal" order is not disobedience, it is a hesitation and an indication that some discussion needs to take place.


You raise a point here that has not really been addressed or at least an address by myself, which is Dominant Responsibility.

As Kyra stated... there is a certain expectations I have of my girls in the obedience of my commands.  However, that is not to say their is not a Responsibility to myself in the issuing of commands.  Willful Disobedience will result in a slave removing consent and as such will no longer be my slave.  The flip side is Willful Disregard!  It is completely unacceptable for me to issue any command that would knowingly HARM my girls.  In the moment I issue such a command, I have immediately disregarded my responsibilities to my slave.  As such, I have removed myself as their Master. 

The key aspect to all of this is Knowingly Defying or Disregarding the other.  The focus of all us is on the relationship and not for the singular benefit of one.  As Merc has stated on many occassions... Him and beth serve the relationship.  I can appreciate and understand this mindset, It's one that I share.  The relationship is bigger than the ego or identity of single person within it.

Thanks CD for raising in this discussion the other half of the coin.



You're welcome, Knight.  It is important to me because I feel that it would be entirely too easy...if a dominant is not introspecting himself and monitoring himself...to fall into a complacency that expects an order, ANY order, to be carried out.  This is where the line "because I am the dominant and I said so", used rightly in so many situations can also become so wrong. 

Not just Willful Defiance/Disobedience (submissive) but also Willful/Careless Disregard (dominant)...as you stated... needs to be kept in firm check.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 1:54:11 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		 I get it, Everybody in the relationship remains autonomous/ free to choose to do what they want. As long as they choose to be cooperative the relationship continues, if the dominant has to exercise authority, for example if they attempt to disobey him, in the obey or leave style the dynamic instead terminates and the relationship is over. It seems to work for many people here so it is one of those different strokes things.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

I'm not speaking for you, I'm telling you what I believe to be true about people who use the threat of leaving as a way to control people. It is a very common form of emotional blackmail. I am having a really hard time seeing them as dominant over anything.


I would tend to agree, although I think perhaps you missed a subtle nuance of what they meant by it. From my impression, it's not a question of terminating the relationship if disobedience occurs, but rather that, in the context of a cooperative dynamic, willful disobedience breaks out of the dynamic. If that dynamic is the only thing a relationship is built on, then there is de facto no relationship when the dynamic breaks. Which is not to say one cannot work to reestablish it.

In a setting of more literal slavery, as you have described elsewhere, that may not work the same way.



_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 1:57:39 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		 

If it isn't blackmaling to you than it isn't. I certainly won't argue the point kyra, only you know what type of dynamic works for you.



quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
I'm not speaking for you, I'm telling you what I believe to be true about people who use the threat of leaving as a way to control people. It is a very common form of emotional blackmail. I am having a really hard time seeing them as dominant over anything.


I agree that it is possible for it to be blackmail and there are many things that can be used as emotional blackmail if the motivation is there, but I know it isn't true in every case.  It is not true in my relationship, so I know that this type of relationship can exist without emotional blackmail.  The motivation of the person is what determines if it is emotional blackmail or not.

When we started our relationship we talked about the things that were deal breakers for both of us.  He knows my deal breakers (the big ones are being betrayed and intentionally being harmed).  I know his deal breaker (defying his authority).  Is it emotional blackmail when people know that if they intentionally harm their partner that they will leave the relationship?  I know a great many relationships where this is a deal breaker and no one feels emotionally blackmailed.

For him to intentionally harm me, he would have to have a huge shift in his character.  For me to defy his authority I would have to have a huge shift in my character.  Neither are likely to happen.  The concept of ending the relationship by defying his authority is something that we rarely talk about.  It was something discussed in depth before starting our relationship and it was up to me to make the choice to accept it or not.  For the most part we only talk about it on the boards because it is a topic that is frequently discussed.

But I suspect that actually hearing a firsthand account of a person who lives in this type of a relationship without any emotional blackmail existing is unlikely to alter your opinion. 

Knight's Kyra


_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 2:18:43 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

it's not a question of terminating the relationship if disobedience occurs, but rather that, in the context of a cooperative dynamic, willful disobedience breaks out of the dynamic.


This is about the best and clearest statement of this sort of dynamic that I've seen. 

I've always shied away from 'obey or leave' sorts of arrangements, tending to hear only the 'leave' part.  It sounds too much like an ultimatum and I have much the same 'gut-level' problems with it that BeingChewsie described, though I am very obedience oriented.  Either I would be anxious, always worried about getting the boot or dissociated, not wanting to invest anything lest I get the boot.

But, logically, the way you placed the significance of willful disobedience in the context of a cooperative dynamic makes a lot more sense and opens up possibilities.  "Obey or leave" becomes synonomous with "cooperate or leave."  I like it.


_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 2:35:31 PM   
BeingChewsie


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I'm very obedience oriented but willful disobedience has occured in my dynamic and will I'm sure again. R has this thing he enjoys. He punches me very hard in the clit area, into my pubic bone, I have a vertical hood piercing, he has snapped the steel punching there many times. I can stand still for two or three of those punches into my pubic bone and clit area, after that, I put my hand there to block, it happens every single time...he orders me to move my hand..I stutter.. " i can't"...he orders me again..and I generally comply at that point..he goes back to punching it, harder of course because I said no to him...it never fails I block again..and at that point the pain is so bad he has to force my arms back over my head to get them away. If we were in an obey or leave dynamic, I'd be out the door..it is clearly willful disobedeince, he is telling me to do something, I'm telling him I can't..willful disobedience..I'd be gone if I were in that type of dynamic with him. Luckily force isn't an issue for him, he makes me comply. I'm glad, I'd hate to get kicked to the curb over something that I have tried to stop but have been unable to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

it's not a question of terminating the relationship if disobedience occurs, but rather that, in the context of a cooperative dynamic, willful disobedience breaks out of the dynamic.


This is about the best and clearest statement of this sort of dynamic that I've seen. 

I've always shied away from 'obey or leave' sorts of arrangements, tending to hear only the 'leave' part.  It sounds too much like an ultimatum and I have much the same 'gut-level' problems with it that BeingChewsie described, though I am very obedience oriented.  Either I would be anxious, always worried about getting the boot or dissociated, not wanting to invest anything lest I get the boot.

But, logically, the way you placed the significance of willful disobedience in the context of a cooperative dynamic makes a lot more sense and opens up possibilities.  "Obey or leave" becomes synonomous with "cooperate or leave."  I like it.



< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 8/29/2007 2:38:49 PM >

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to gypsygrl)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 2:45:20 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie



I'm very obedience oriented but willful disobedience has occured in my dynamic and will I'm sure again. R has this thing he enjoys. He punches me very hard in the clit area, into my pubic bone, I have a vertical hood piercing, he has snapped the steel punching there many times. I can stand still for two or three of those punches into my pubic bone and clit area, after that, I put my hand there to block, it happens every single time...he orders me to move my hand..I stutter.. " i can't"...he orders me again..and I generally comply at that point..he goes back to punching it, harder of course because I said no to him...it never fails I block again..and at that point the pain is so bad he has to force my arms back over my head to get them away. If we were in an obey or leave dynamic, I'd be out the door..it is clearly willful disobedeince, he is telling me to do something, I'm telling him I can't..willful disobedience..I'd be gone if I were in that type of dynamic with him. Luckily force isn't an issue for him, he makes me comply. I'm glad, I'd hate to get kicked to the curb over something that I have tried to stop but have been unable to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

it's not a question of terminating the relationship if disobedience occurs, but rather that, in the context of a cooperative dynamic, willful disobedience breaks out of the dynamic.


This is about the best and clearest statement of this sort of dynamic that I've seen. 

I've always shied away from 'obey or leave' sorts of arrangements, tending to hear only the 'leave' part.  It sounds too much like an ultimatum and I have much the same 'gut-level' problems with it that BeingChewsie described, though I am very obedience oriented.  Either I would be anxious, always worried about getting the boot or dissociated, not wanting to invest anything lest I get the boot.

But, logically, the way you placed the significance of willful disobedience in the context of a cooperative dynamic makes a lot more sense and opens up possibilities.  "Obey or leave" becomes synonomous with "cooperate or leave."  I like it.




The cooperative dynamnic was what I was trying to communicate, but hadnt been able to in Aswad's words.

In this scenario, no you wont as far as I am concerned. I make a big distinction between "I cant" and "I wont".

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 2:49:40 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
I'm very obedience oriented but willful disobedience has occured in my dynamic and will I'm sure again. R has this thing he enjoys. He punches me very hard in the clit area, into my pubic bone, I have a vertical hood piercing, he has snapped the steel punching there many times. I can stand still for two or three of those punches into my pubic bone and clit area, after that, I put my hand there to block, it happens every single time...he orders me to move my hand..I stutter.. " i can't"...he orders me again..and I generally comply at that point..he goes back to punching it, harder of course because I said no to him...it never fails I block again..and at that point the pain is so bad he has to force my arms back over my head to get them away. If we were in an obey or leave dynamic, I'd be out the door..it is clearly willful disobedeince, he is telling me to do something, I'm telling him I can't..willful disobedience..I'd be gone if I were in that type of dynamic with him. Luckily force isn't an issue for him, he makes me comply. I'm glad, I'd hate to get kicked to the curb over something that I have tried to stop but have been unable to do.


In our relationship, when he plays with me, causes pain or we have sex the only rule that exists is that there are no rules.  I am not allowed to censor myself; I am to just react.  If reacting means punching him back or covering up then it would actually be disobedient to curb that reaction.  Holding back from reacting and not letting go is the one thing that will get me in trouble in play.  Refusing an instruction during play will only get him to force me to comply; it elevates the intensity and the primal energy during play.  It is something that he highly enjoys.

Also, being unable to do something is not defying his authority, so being unable to stop is not going to get me kicked to the curb.  Defiance is knowing and understanding what is required, being capable of doing what is required and still refusing to do what I am told.  It isn't making a mistake, forgetfulness (though if this is a habit and I don't take steps to correct it I would get in tons of shit) or making a decision to follow another instruction that has a higher priority.  In it's simplest form it is "Kyra, get me a glass of water" and me saying "No, get it yourself".

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 2:55:01 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		gypsygrl,

I don't think it is any more of an ultimatum than "obey or I will punish you" or "if you abuse me I am leaving" or "if you cheat on me I will leave".

We all have deal breakers, lines, boundaries that cannot be crossed or it will harm our well-being or the well-being of the relationship.  This one just happens to be one that you don't see too often.

Just like anything, if you are careful who you get in a relationship with then these deal breakers or boundaries are not something that you even worry about.  I know that we don't; he doesn't worry that I will cross his boundaries and neither do I.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to gypsygrl)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 3:21:08 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
I'm very obedience oriented but willful disobedience has occured in my dynamic and will I'm sure again. R has this thing he enjoys. He punches me very hard in the clit area, into my pubic bone, I have a vertical hood piercing, he has snapped the steel punching there many times. I can stand still for two or three of those punches into my pubic bone and clit area, after that, I put my hand there to block, it happens every single time...he orders me to move my hand..I stutter.. " i can't"...he orders me again..and I generally comply at that point..he goes back to punching it, harder of course because I said no to him...it never fails I block again..and at that point the pain is so bad he has to force my arms back over my head to get them away. If we were in an obey or leave dynamic, I'd be out the door..it is clearly willful disobedeince, he is telling me to do something, I'm telling him I can't..willful disobedience..I'd be gone if I were in that type of dynamic with him. Luckily force isn't an issue for him, he makes me comply. I'm glad, I'd hate to get kicked to the curb over something that I have tried to stop but have been unable to do.


In our relationship, when he plays with me, causes pain or we have sex the only rule that exists is that there are no rules.  I am not allowed to censor myself; I am to just react.  If reacting means punching him back or covering up then it would actually be disobedient to curb that reaction.  Holding back from reacting and not letting go is the one thing that will get me in trouble in play.  Refusing an instruction during play will only get him to force me to comply; it elevates the intensity and the primal energy during play.  It is something that he highly enjoys.

Also, being unable to do something is not defying his authority, so being unable to stop is not going to get me kicked to the curb.  Defiance is knowing and understanding what is required, being capable of doing what is required and still refusing to do what I am told.  It isn't making a mistake, forgetfulness (though if this is a habit and I don't take steps to correct it I would get in tons of shit) or making a decision to follow another instruction that has a higher priority.  In it's simplest form it is "Kyra, get me a glass of water" and me saying "No, get it yourself".

Knight's Kyra


Understood. There is no distinction here drawn between "No", "I can't" and "I won't"...they all mean "no" when you get right down to it. The only time I can block or fight back is when he specifically wants to fight to train me or just because he feels like fighting. Any other time the order is to just take it, it is defiance to not comply with the order. It is the same as him saying "get me a glass of water" and me saying "get it yourself". It is a refusal to comply with an order he knows can be complied with, it just hurts so much I can't (don't want too)bring myself to comply..It is more important to me at that moment to ease the pain than to satisfy his needs...I own that, we know it, that is why he just imposes his will on me. My will is not allowed to carry the day.

In obey or leave the slave would be gotten rid of I assume for putting her own needs(In this case the need to stop that pain so attemping to block the area from being punched) ahead of his needs to inflict it or whatever his needs were at that moment right?

< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 8/29/2007 3:38:11 PM >

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 3:37:17 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		The scenario you describe doesn't sound like willful disobedience but an instinctive reaction.  Mine has done a similar thing with me but with my breasts though I'm real sensitive there, so it doesnt take a whole lot for me to try to cover them up.  He tells me to put my hands down, and keep them down and it takes all my concentration to obey.  I use my 'will' in the direction of obedience, but my will in this case sometimes falters and my instincts towards self protection takes over.  So, I look at this as a conflict between the will to obey (which is certainly there) and the ability to obey (which is only there inconsistently).

I wanna go re-read Schopenhaur. Heh.




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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 3:55:23 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
In obey or leave the slave would be gotten rid of I assume for putting her own needs(In this case the need to stop that pain so attemping to block the area from being punched) ahead of his needs to inflict it or whatever his needs were at that moment right?


From the little that I know about painful stimuli and how the body responds to it; it is much more instinctual than willful.  Painful stimuli causes us to react in some way.  Choosing to react in a different way requires training, time and learning to exercise self control.  There are some reactions that I just don't think a person will ever be able to control.  He flicked my nipple once and I slapped him; there was no thought, no consideration; I just lashed out.  He laughed so hard, he cried.  There was no way I could have controlled that reaction.

I would not consider an instinctual reaction to protect the body an act of defiance.  However, I am sure that there are more knowledgable people on here than me about pain and how our body reacts to it.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 4:23:06 PM   
Redoubt


Posts: 185
Joined: 8/11/2007
Status: offline 		Great topic and very good responses.

For me, I'd have to say if she is aware that defying me means the end of the road for us and she still defies me, she either wants out, or I've crossed limits that I should have known better about.

Either way, it's my responsibility as I should be talking with her, understanding her, gauging her moods and correcting issues before they snowball out of control. Having a slave means that you own an incredibly valuable piece of property, and you have to maintain anything of value... especially one that can be so tough, and yet so incredibly fragile at the same time. (Especially if you enjoy it so much, you tend to use the hell out of her *evil grin*)


(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 6:27:08 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Not just Willful Defiance/Disobedience (submissive) but also Willful/Careless Disregard (dominant)...as you stated... needs to be kept in firm check.


Nods... this to me is the very boundaries of a healthy functional Authority dynamic.  Unlike play limits that one pushes towards and attempts to move..  These boundaries you move parallel with and in between them.  Moving towards either one of them will actually be counter to the health of the relationship.

Secondly, The term Cooperative Dynamic is not a term that would use to describe my relationship.  The term cooperative implies to me that there is a joint authority between the members of the dynamic.  In a Total Transfer Dynamic this just isn't the case.  Unified Dynamic would be a better descripter to me.  The three of us work towards the whole.. which is the relationship.  In being this relationship there is responsibilities and commitments for each of us.  The most significant is to avoid moving in the direction of either disobedience or disregard.  Each step towards one or the other is contray to the unification of us as one that we are committed to.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 8/29/2007 6:53:06 PM >

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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