RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 6:52:02 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

The scenario you describe doesn't sound like willful disobedience but an instinctive reaction. Mine has done a similar thing with me but with my breasts though I'm real sensitive there, so it doesnt take a whole lot for me to try to cover them up. He tells me to put my hands down, and keep them down and it takes all my concentration to obey. I use my 'will' in the direction of obedience, but my will in this case sometimes falters and my instincts towards self protection takes over. So, I look at this as a conflict between the will to obey (which is certainly there) and the ability to obey (which is only there inconsistently).

I agree... this is not wilful disobedience. The fact of the matter... she is actually unable to comply. The stresses upon the body is causing instinctional reactions. With training one can gain some measure of control upon these instinctual reactions and then again... one may never beable to control these reactions. When external forces in the moment are applied on a person, these very forces can inhibit a person's ability to control their thought and emotional responses. These forces in of itself can make it impossible for a person to obey. I suppose the person would have to say... when they first start before the consequences are exerted on the body, does one obey. But, as the punches are felt and the consequences of the forces are endured in the moment... soon the ability to comply goes out the window. In order to obey a person needs control of three facets of them self... Physical, Mental and Emotional. With training, I show my girls the critical nature of how their lack of focus on anyone of these can allow them to slip in their obedience. I also show them that External forces can and will inhibit their ability to obey. They learn to focus more on their control of self an also to minimize the effects on external forces upon them. Sometimes the minimization is removing themselves from the forces. I do not seek to Dominant my girls and force them to maintain control. I Dominant them to control themselves. Instead of giving them fish.. I teach them to fish and I fish with them.

I ultimately seek an internally motivated slave to serve and obey as compared to an externally motivated slave. Instead of enforcing my will upon their own. I use their own will enslave them

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to gypsygrl)

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/29/2007 8:11:51 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
In order to obey a person needs control of three facets of them self... Physical, Mental and Emotional. With training, I show my girls the critical nature of how their lack of focus on anyone of these can allow them to slip in their obedience. I also show them that External forces can and will inhibit their ability to obey. They learn to focus more on their control of self an also to minimize the effects on external forces upon them.

Not to hijack, but I think this should be used as an example whenever someone asks why someone would need training, or training in what? I'm glad you put this out there, and wanted to highlight it because of what a great example it is.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/30/2007 1:26:21 AM

BitaTruble

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Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I ultimately seek an internally motivated slave to serve and obey as compared to an externally motivated slave. Instead of enforcing my will upon their own. I use their own will enslave them

Ownedgirlie already commented on the other part of this post regarding training, but this, to me, is the crux of the entire thing. I know many scoff at mentors, but I've been mentoring submissives and other slaves for a good long while and the main thing I always try to present is this exact comment. When it's internal, outside forces are not so necessary to slavery. Until I saw that for myself, though, I struggled for a long time with accepting my status. Thank you for posting this thought. I sooooo agree. :)

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/30/2007 2:13:17 AM

trixxitrash

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I'd give her a safe word, and tell her it was over if she said it. Then I'd go about torturing her till she either did what I told her or spoke the safe word.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/30/2007 5:26:15 AM

BeingChewsie

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Joined: 10/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I ultimately seek an internally motivated slave to serve and obey as compared to an externally motivated slave. Instead of enforcing my will upon their own. I use their own will enslave them

I don't understand what you are saying KOM. I am internally enslaved(can't leave him of my own volition). That is built and maintained by him in my beliefs but that still has not led to 100% obedience under all circumstances in almost a decade..the taking the punches without blocking is one example of something even my internal state of slavery can't yet over ride. A person can be enslaved(unable to leave or successfully veto the owner) and still be disobedient...ownership is the defining quality of slavery, obedience is a defining quality of submission. I admit to not submiting to his demands at those moments, my desire to make the pain stop is stronger than my desire to obey and please him..but I don't see the connection between that and the internal state of being enslaved. Maybe I'm just not reading the above right. I wonder if because I have no service orientation, no built in desire to serve at all, that maybe that is why I can't get to the place of 100% internal motivation to do what he wants without him putting his foot down on me sometimes...imposing his own authority on me.

< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 8/30/2007 5:30:13 AM >

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~Ron and Hup

(in reply to KnightofMists)

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 8/31/2007 11:51:33 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I ultimately seek an internally motivated slave to serve and obey as compared to an externally motivated slave. Instead of enforcing my will upon their own. I use their own will enslave them

Ownedgirlie already commented on the other part of this post regarding training, but this, to me, is the crux of the entire thing. I know many scoff at mentors, but I've been mentoring submissives and other slaves for a good long while and the main thing I always try to present is this exact comment. When it's internal, outside forces are not so necessary to slavery. Until I saw that for myself, though, I struggled for a long time with accepting my status. Thank you for posting this thought. I sooooo agree. :)
Celeste

Good point, Celeste. I've stated on other threads that I much prefer the woman who WANTS to submit to me, that feels that something within her yields to the dominant force within me. That is the start of that internal motivation to submit and then, like Knight, I prefer to build on that internal motivation and knock down the external factors' importance, most often their importance as negative influences.

As an aside, a mentor teaching these types of things does not have to bring any sort of sex play, BDSM play or D/s "roles" into the situation to teach them. And how much more valuable is the insight gained from this teaching as compared to knowing how well you can take a flogging from this particular dominant using his particular style?

Sorry...couldn't help myself with that last statement...badddddddddddd Dom.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 9/9/2007 2:18:39 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

From the little that I know about painful stimuli and how the body responds to it; it is much more instinctual than willful.

That depends on the person. Also, people with PDD or ASD disorders (BeingChewsie mentioned suspicions about being an aspie in the aspie thread) tend to have a different perception of pain, and different techniques for managing it. Many also even respond very differently to opioid analgetics and the like (e.g. I get zero effect at any safe dose).

It also depends on the state of mind. I'm a wimp, and will reflexively start hopping about on one leg, clutching my foot and cussing, from simply stubbing my toe. Yet, I can have a root canal done without anaesthetic and neither twitch nor make a sound if I put myself in the right mindspace, or ignore repeated punching and kicking. Anyone can, I think.

We have instinctual reactions, yes, but they can definitely be overridden.

quote:

There are some reactions that I just don't think a person will ever be able to control.

Doubtfully, with the possible exception of reflex sites (i.e. those were you hit a nerve that controls a muscle). The amount of effort expended is a different matter, though, as is the time spent training for it. Personally, I would rather go with the forced compliance approach instead of spending that time, unless it was a shared kink.

quote:

I would not consider an instinctual reaction to protect the body an act of defiance.

To my mind, whether it is willful or not depends on whether there is a conscious choice to deprioritize the order or not. If there isn't, then it doesn't break the dynamic, it merely elicits a correction to the internalized priority (i.e. punishment). In any case, as BeingChewsie said, there is a difference in this regard between submission and slavery.

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 9/9/2007 2:21:24 AM >

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"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 9/15/2007 9:32:00 AM

SlaveSubtoserve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NefertariReborn

I don't ascribe to the black/white obey or leave dynamic. I went in knowing there were things I wanted changed and I went in knowing that like all humans, he'd be somewhat resistant to change in certain areas. I approach them just like approach unwanted behaviour in the UMs or the dogs - extinguish! extinguish! extinguish! positive/negative reinforcers, outright punishment, whatever it takes to reach the desired goal. When is enough, enough? Can't say. I have no line drawn in the sand. I know it when I see it. But I know I get off on looking back weeks later at something that used to be a major problem that doesn't get an eyelash blink when told to get it done now. To Me that's dominance. I've broken through the resistance to achieve what I set out to do.

......now that is a wonderful Female M/s dynamic for us blokes who need help improving and for ensuring continual improvement and enjoyment for both!

(in reply to NefertariReborn)

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RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It - 9/15/2007 2:12:14 PM

teamnoir

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First, in any relationship, regardless of length, I would discuss it before discarding the relationship.

Second, your definition sounds more to me like d/s than like m/s. How do you distinguish m/s from d/s?

(in reply to MadRabbit)

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