RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor

RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (Full Version)

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kossack -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/2/2007 8:46:09 PM)
Well, given that he is planning on having the government pay for health care (which I totally support), I think it makes sense to do this in as cost-efficient was as possible. Now, maybe we need an opt-out program, but if you are an idiot and don't see a doctor for 10 years, so it costs $250,000 to treat something that would have cost $100 a month if diagnosed 5 years ago, then I frankly don't think I should have to pay for you being an imbecile! The least you can do is pay a fine to help set-off the cost of your statistically increased care. And frankly, given that he is clearly in a great deal of pain (and not going to win the nomination because his heart just isn't in it, although I have given him a small contribution and do support him) because of the pain caused by his wife's metastasized cancer, I can see why he would want to require women to get checked for breast cancer. We require vaccinations, and I'd say that's been an overwhelming success. Our health system is the worst in the developed world in terms of costs spent and results achieved: Check out http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18802 According to this table (http://www.nybooks.com/images/tables/20060323img2.gif) we spend $5,267 per capita spending in 2002, whereas France spent $2,736. Our life expectancy is 2.1 years less. Our infant mortality is about 50% higher than France's. We have a few less physicians per 1000 people, more nurses and significantly less hospital beds. For spending almost twice as much!!!! Now I have great health insurance, but I also have a PhD and a ton of other privileges that come from being born to a financially comfy family. Our system in fundamentally broken, and more than anyone else, Edwards has put forth a comprehensive plan. Sure as hell beats the Rethuglicans who seem to think Tony Snow, with $150K a year and great health ins. should quit his job to make some real money, but heaven forbid a middle-class family would need help for their health insurance for their kids.

CuriousLord -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/2/2007 9:05:07 PM)
As far as I can see, this is likely his argument: -Universal healthcare means the tax payers will pick up the bill. -It's cheaper to have preventative medicine (fixing problems before they become big). -The tax payers will be (much?) less burdened by a socialized healthcare system that practices preventive medicine as a basis for all substituents. -Those refusing to accept preventative care will not received socialized healthcare (since they're making an unusual finicial demand on the system. I entirely agree with you. If he's forcing people in the door, then that's illegal. If he's only requiring regular visits to receive benifits from this new system, that's far more reasonable.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/2/2007 11:31:31 PM)
They wont give an opt-out choice because the Dems will think that is a way for the rich to avoid paying into the system. That is why they dont have an opt-out for medicare or social security either

mnottertail -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 12:22:12 AM)
they've opted out of the draft and they have opted their way out of sending their sons and daughters to their war and they have opted their way out of civic responsibility, so they will figure a way to opt out of this. Ron

luckydog1 -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 12:25:03 AM)
The problem is going to be forcing the doctors to work for less money under worse conditions, and then 10 years down the line not having enough doctors coming out of med school. The old "invisible hand" is going to have a say in this. I guess we can import Chinese doctors...

mnottertail -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 12:28:40 AM)
I can see you have not been to a doctor for some time. There are a multitude of imported doctors in this country. The argument doesnt wash in any case. The number of countries in this world that have socialized medicine are in no dire need of chanker mechanics.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 12:32:21 AM)
What is an object in your care called, that has no rights to resist your will? I call that property. Edwards must think citizens are property to come up with such a proposal.

CuriousLord -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 12:33:57 AM)
If care shifts to a more preventative focus, it's likely that nurses will become more in demand. I wouldn't find it difficult to imagine a future in which you go in to see a relatively-well educated nurse who would only refer a case to a doctor in the situation in which a problem requiring such specialization is found. Perhaps, too, an anual appointment would be with a nurse, though a doctor instead on every fifth year. Whatever the case, switching to socialized medicine at this very moment isn't likely to pull more doctors and nurses from thin air. Not everyone will receive the same treatment that many would demand today as those that currently lack care would find themselves with more at the expense of those who once had it.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 12:34:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail I can see you have not been to a doctor for some time. There are a multitude of imported doctors in this country. The argument doesnt wash in any case. The number of countries in this world that have socialized medicine are in no dire need of chanker mechanics. But if you go to Europe or other countries that have socialized medicine...you start to see the heathcare system divided by class. There are doctors for the rich and doctors for the poor. And unless you are willing to shell out a lot of money...you get the doc who got out of med school with the C-average.

mnottertail -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 12:39:46 AM)
Which is what you get here at a much higher cost, both ways, but people still live and die and so that isn't gonna change and not looking for a solution.

MadHatter -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 12:43:28 AM)
This is exactly the reason he and Kerry didn't make it very far the first time they ran.

mnottertail -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 12:46:35 AM)
well if healthcare reform is not an issue, perhaps something else will be at the top of the list needing change, what might that be I wonder? But I don't recall either making this proposal before.

cadenas -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 12:57:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail I can see you have not been to a doctor for some time. There are a multitude of imported doctors in this country. The argument doesnt wash in any case. The number of countries in this world that have socialized medicine are in no dire need of chanker mechanics. But if you go to Europe or other countries that have socialized medicine...you start to see the heathcare system divided by class. There are doctors for the rich and doctors for the poor. And unless you are willing to shell out a lot of money...you get the doc who got out of med school with the C-average. How do you know your HMO won't assign you a doctor with the C average? And the US system isn't divided by class? Also, Europe is not a country. Europe is some 30 countries, with sometimes vastly different systems. But one thing many of them do have in common is that there is only one network whose doctors will accept any insurance payment. You are free to go to any doctor you like and trust. Including specialists, without getting a referral first. And almost every doctor is in the network, because if they weren't, they wouldn't have patients. The exception is of course cosmetic surgeons etc. who would be paid out of pocket in the US, too. So you are right on one count. In Europe, there are cosmetic surgeons, and there are doctors for the poor.

obis -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 1:16:35 AM)
I think a critical piece of information is missing from Cyberdude's pants-shitting. What does "having to see the doctor" mean? That if you don't you go to jail? Or that if you don't, you will get turned down for ridiculously expensive care at taxpayers expense that could have easily been avoided with periodic checkups? Because if it's the latter, Edwards' plan wouldn't have any affect on individual freedom or choice whatsoever, and Cyberdude will have just gotten all upset for nothing because he's too busy freaking out about "liberals" to find out whether or not he actually disagrees with Edwards' plan.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 1:41:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obis I think a critical piece of information is missing from Cyberdude's pants-shitting. What does "having to see the doctor" mean? That if you don't you go to jail? Or that if you don't, you will get turned down for ridiculously expensive care at taxpayers expense that could have easily been avoided with periodic checkups? Because if it's the latter, Edwards' plan wouldn't have any affect on individual freedom or choice whatsoever, and Cyberdude will have just gotten all upset for nothing because he's too busy freaking out about "liberals" to find out whether or not he actually disagrees with Edwards' plan. I disagree with socialized medicine. It's that simple. I do agree that healthcare needs reform, needs to be changed, and is too expensive... but I do not agree with socialized medicine that comes at taxpayers expense. I feel we already have too many things in this country controlled by the government. The government is just way too big right now to be adding something like this. Edwards admits this program is going to cost $120 billion just to start up. I think that is a low estimate and that amount will only increase each year. Many experts have stated estimates ranging from $600 to $800 billion a year for socialized medicine in the United States. Fact is, we just have too many people, an aging population that is still growing, and heathcare costs continue to increase. You want to put this burden on the tax payers and I assure you that you will be paying much more money to the government for lower quality care than you are currently paying your insurance policy.

mnottertail -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 1:47:20 AM)
quote: You want to put this burden on the tax payers and I assure you that you will be paying much more money to the government for lower quality care than you are currently paying your insurance policy Interesting..... so tell us how old you are, what your insurance policy costs and the general terms of it, please......it might help us if you can actually assert in media res. Ron

Dominatist -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 2:46:50 AM)
deleted

obis -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 3:00:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 I disagree with socialized medicine. It's that simple. I do agree that healthcare needs reform, needs to be changed, and is too expensive... but I do not agree with socialized medicine that comes at taxpayers expense. And that's fine, disagree with socialized medicine all you like. You don't need to trump up imaginary boogymen to debate socialized medicine. You don't have to go off ranting about liberals forcing you to do thing and taking away freedoms by misinterpreting someone's statement, when they may not be suggesting anything of the sort.

cadenas -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 3:02:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 quote: ORIGINAL: obis I think a critical piece of information is missing from Cyberdude's pants-shitting. What does "having to see the doctor" mean? That if you don't you go to jail? Or that if you don't, you will get turned down for ridiculously expensive care at taxpayers expense that could have easily been avoided with periodic checkups? Because if it's the latter, Edwards' plan wouldn't have any affect on individual freedom or choice whatsoever, and Cyberdude will have just gotten all upset for nothing because he's too busy freaking out about "liberals" to find out whether or not he actually disagrees with Edwards' plan. I disagree with socialized medicine. It's that simple. I do agree that healthcare needs reform, needs to be changed, and is too expensive... but I do not agree with socialized medicine that comes at taxpayers expense. But you do agree with the far more expensive privatized health care at taxpayers expense? Because it's us taxpayers who pay the insurance premiums, you know? And for most of us who aren't super rich, health insurance is a bigger chunk of money than income taxes. quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 Fact is, we just have too many people, an aging population that is still growing, and heathcare costs continue to increase. You want to put this burden on the tax payers and I assure you that you will be paying much more money to the government for lower quality care than you are currently paying your insurance policy. Did you know that the government-run Medicare is about ten times more efficient than the health insurances available to us mere mortals? Medicare spends 3% of premiums on administration. Private health insurances? 30%. A communist will never admit that sometimes the free market is the better choice. And the anti-government crowd in the US is just as ideologically blind. The truth is, as so often in life, somewhere in the middle. And when it comes to health care, the market has utterly failed.

Level -> RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor (9/3/2007 3:17:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obis quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 I disagree with socialized medicine. It's that simple. I do agree that healthcare needs reform, needs to be changed, and is too expensive... but I do not agree with socialized medicine that comes at taxpayers expense. And that's fine, disagree with socialized medicine all you like. You don't need to trump up imaginary boogymen to debate socialized medicine. You don't have to go off ranting about liberals forcing you to do thing and taking away freedoms by misinterpreting someone's statement, when they may not be suggesting anything of the sort. Agreed, but what about those that paint the right with such a wide brush?

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