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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/13/2005 4:08:40 PM   
softandshy


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Sorry tempest, we posted at the same time. i have read your entire post though, and i got the same impression as Emerald. my thought was that if there were circumstances in which i would do it, then i must be the "type." That may have been influenced by the rest of the thread as well though.

*edited to clarify the second line*

< Message edited by softandshy -- 7/13/2005 4:16:23 PM >


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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/13/2005 4:32:45 PM   
Tempestspet


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softandshy,
You like the way Emerald speaks... she said that she would do all those things if told to do so.... as he is the owner. not under any conditions or on behalf of certain people....she would do it because she was told to do so..

But you said.... that unless it were for a child... not adult, or anyone else... but only for a child...would you kills or whatever.
That's not what Emerald said. You gave conditions under which you would do these things.... Emerald said she just would do those things just because commanded.

That's not the same thing at all.

This is partly why these questions.... are not realistic, in my rarely humble opinion. It's kinda smacks of ..who can pee the farthest, who can claim the super sub/slave button/award. I broke one of my own rules in even replying to this... just in a feisty mood today I guess.

Anyways, I've done it, commented...and so here we are. Since I don't erase my posts.... let the silliness fly.

Sorry that I'm cranky, have other things going on... thought this would take my mind off of it, and I'm sorry to take it out on you guys.

Sincerely,
Tempest's pet
jennifer

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 3:33:50 AM   
gentlesurrender


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The replies have been thought provoking and as i said during the original debate, it really did depend on the situation and circumstances at the time. I used a real life example of traumatic consequences and really coudnt understand the tenet that the situation would be allowed or even tolerated. Interestingly enough it was a situation that related to my children. As Emmerald has said I would die for them and i certainly wouldnt let anything happen to them.

but there are times i would lie for Him, what if you were faced with a mugger, Master says lie so i can do so and so, then yes i would lie for Him.


After having spoken with a very kind Master, his take on it, and for me really gave me some reassurance, is that a slave can fail in an aspect of being slave, doesnt mean she fails in slavery itself.


Part of asking and airing thoughts is to explore and understand my submissiveness further and to ensure that whoever i submit to in the future is a Master who would be compatible. Sharing the same values, desires and needs etc etc etc. Its fun though, strolling down the path, stopping to assess things, at times smelling the roses, or smarting at the pricks of the thorns. One day, be it this year, or next or whenever i might find Him.

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We're never so vulnerable than when we trust someone - but paradoxically, if we cannot trust, neither can we find love or joy" Walter Anderson

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 3:40:31 AM   
lovingmaster45


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quote:

I had an interesting debate last night in a Gorean chat room


After this opening, all else loses meaning.

Taking anything Gor seriously is like asking a Trekkie how to land the starship. It just does not matter what the answer is; there is no basis in reality.

Leave fantasy role playing where it belongs.... in fantasy land.

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 4:15:55 AM   
gentlesurrender


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well thats a shame, because it wasnt a roleplay room. It was a Gorean chat room, talking generally and open to dicussion and debate.

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We're never so vulnerable than when we trust someone - but paradoxically, if we cannot trust, neither can we find love or joy" Walter Anderson

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 5:31:10 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingmaster45

quote:

I had an interesting debate last night in a Gorean chat room


After this opening, all else loses meaning.

Taking anything Gor seriously is like asking a Trekkie how to land the starship. It just does not matter what the answer is; there is no basis in reality.

Leave fantasy role playing where it belongs.... in fantasy land.

I'm not gorean and I don't really think much about it either which way, but I thought the debate itself was valid and applicable to M/s at large, so that's how I responded.

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 6:29:52 AM   
JerryInTampa


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quote:

Taking anything Gor seriously is like asking a Trekkie how to land the starship. It just does not matter what the answer is; there is no basis in reality.
I'm unclear on what you think "reality" is.

Discussing the events in a book is not reality. Discussing play you intend to do, regardless of source, seems to be quite real, regardless of source.

To use the trekkie analogy, a marriage in vulcan ears is still a marriage, and sex at a convention is still sex. People playing Gor are no different than people playing master-slave or people playing "the sailor and the prostitute". You may find the books silly, or the fans of them odd, but they are still real people doing real things.

The question is valid, and the people are real, no matter what you think of the reasoning.

(why are the people most judged against often the most judgemental?)

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 10:37:56 AM   
RiotGirl


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Ummmmmmmmm... hello is this the Gor bashing thread i just stepped into? Cos i really thought i was reading on SLAVE OBEDIENCE. A whole page has been spent on Gor, does anyone know how disapoointing it is to think i've another page of "slave obedience" and find i stepped into the Gor thread? Shall i start a new thread on "What are your thoughts on Gor?"

To me, slavery isnt just about "following orders" or just about obeying. Its not just about, i made the decision to follow his will. To me being a slave is abit more indepth. Its about giving up your heart and your soul and eventually your mind. Its about blind faith. Its about closing your eyes and sticking holding your hand out and to be lead around. There's a time when it stops becoming a decision and starts becoming instinctual. So you stick your hand out and decide to peek? No there is no decision. No choice. Submission stops becoming a choice. It becomes who you are. That is slavery. IMHO REAL slavery. When you havent even the choice to submit anymore.

Getting there, IS the journey for me. To where you DO close your eyes, stick your hand out and follow blindly, never once the thought of opening your eyes cross your mind.. Getting there isnt easy and isnt quick, or short, or done lightly. Slavery and being a slave isnt just something one becomes once they become owned. Its a journey.

So to me a "slaves" obedience is a mute question. Would a submissive do it? (because really IMHO we're all just submissive till we get there). Question is, would you open your eyes and peek? Do you trust the one your with? How far have you made it with this person? Can you follow the one blindly?

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 10:43:09 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl
So to me a "slaves" obedience is a mute question.

moot

quote:

Would a submissive do it? (because really IMHO we're all just submissive till we get there). Question is, would you open your eyes and peek? Do you trust the one your with? How far have you made it with this person? Can you follow the one blindly?

Well the Owner doesn't expect me to blindly follow, he likes knowing that I keep my eyes and ears open so he can use me and my talents as such.

However, when the gavel goes down, it doesn't matter what my eyes see or ears here, it matters what he has judged as the thing to do.

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 12:43:39 PM   
teapaw


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quote:

I had an interesting debate last night in a Gorean chat room, regarding a slave’s obedience to her Master, would she lie for him, would she steal for him, basically would she do anything for him even if it meant harming others.

I was inclined to say it depended on the situation and the circumstances, but conceded there were times I would not be able to obey.

The essence was, as a human being I was morally right, but as slave I had failed.

So I would like to throw the debate open further.

I guess my take on life I, I am first and foremost a human being; I evolved into the person I am whether that is as a vanilla, submissive or slave. From the debate I feel there is a sliding scale of obedience, from a trusting loving kind; to a blind irresponsible kind.

I wonder if that goes along with the scale of a kind, considerate, trustworthy Master who treats his slave as a human being; sliding up to the Master who owns his piece of property and demands she obeys no matter what.

So my question is this – How do you feel about a slave abdicating responsibility for her actions as a human being, in blind obedience to her Master. Not forgetting of course how the law of the land would view the actions.
I feel this is more of a personal and MORAL question, then it would depend in whether or not (or what) your Masters or your morals are...

I trust my Master not to ask me to do something that I did not want to do, thus the hard limits but there are things i would do that others would not for my master...I dont have the same moral ground as others...so again thats a personal judgement thing...

my two cents
Pamela

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 1:51:39 PM   
bottominwa


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This question boils down, as some are batting around, trust..plain and simple. If this girl's Owner asked her to lie cheat or steal; she would know unequivocally it was for good reason. Because she knows Him, His character and integrity and He would never stear her wrong. she belongs to this house, therefore her moral code is this house's. Also she has learned as a girl, she tends to have a limited perspective as to what is right and good for her house. she, as a servant, has a very microcosmic view of things. Master has a macrocosmic view, hence His judgement on such matters is much more omniscient then hers can be purely by nature of her status.
The assumption as Emerald pointed out that people always try to thrust into these rhetorical diatribes is that a) as subs/slaves/servants we are idiots incapable of serving decent law abiding citizens b) that anyone whom would choose to "own" us must be a deranged menace to society by nature of Their wanting to "own" someone.
It is akin to discussing whether pink or purple unicorns are the better ride....it's purely inciteful conjecture about nothingness meant only to baffle the idiocracy.

sabrina King

House of King

< Message edited by bottominwa -- 7/14/2005 1:54:10 PM >

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 2:13:19 PM   
gentlesurrender


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The assumption as Emerald pointed out that people always try to thrust into these rhetorical diatribes is that a) as subs/slaves/servants we are idiots incapable of serving decent law abiding citizens b) that anyone whom would choose to "own" us must be a deranged menace to society by nature of Their wanting to "own" someone.

since i started the thread, i just wanted to say it had nothing to do with bashing Gor at all, and secondly in no uncertain terms was i thinking the above.

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We're never so vulnerable than when we trust someone - but paradoxically, if we cannot trust, neither can we find love or joy" Walter Anderson

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 2:21:51 PM   
MrThorns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gentlesurrender

So my question is this – How do you feel about a slave abdicating responsibility for her actions as a human being, in blind obedience to her Master. Not forgetting of course how the law of the land would view the actions.



Personally, I think that a slave has an equal responsibility to herself as well as to her master. If the slave is lying, stealing, cheating etc for her master, then she is being negligent in her responsibility to herself. Besides, I also feel that any so-called, "Master" who would command their slave to lie, steal, and/or cheat for them, is a person of deplorable character and has no business owning a slave in the first place.

~Thorns


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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 2:29:25 PM   
Tempestspet


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Thank you so much Mr Thorns...

That is sooo in line with what I was trying to say earlier.

Tempest's pet
jennifer

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 2:35:52 PM   
miikaawaadizi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
Personally, I think that a slave has an equal responsibility to herself as well as to her master. If the slave is lying, stealing, cheating etc for her master, then she is being negligent in her responsibility to herself. Besides, I also feel that any so-called, "Master" who would command their slave to lie, steal, and/or cheat for them, is a person of deplorable character and has no business owning a slave in the first place.


Oddly, they also aren't generally considered Gorean, a minor fact that the neo-BDSMers always seem to overlook.

~miika

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 2:52:59 PM   
Archer


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I have a saying I use when I discuss this issue with people considering being a slave in a TPE.

A person can safely give over even the rights of life and death when the person recieving it is Ghandi like.

Emerald had a point that people seem to have overlooked for the most part.

The time to be moral is BEFORE you get collared.

It is also the time to make sure that the person you are giving yourself to is of sufficient moral fiber that you would know that an order from them would only come after the morals of the situation had been thought through and their moral standards are at least at the same level if not higher than your own.

In essence they would only give you the order to kill when the moral situation met or exceeded the standard you have for killing. They would only order you to steal when the moral situation met or exceeded your own standard for stealing...


Now if you abdicate the choice of your own morals before you have established such knowledge, then you have some level of moral culpability. However if you secure this knowledge ahead of time, then you would already have chosen to commit the act without their influence, and thus may sleep soundly as far as the choice to abdicate your personal morals and substitute your owners in their place.

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 4:10:09 PM   
RiotGirl


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quote:

It is also the time to make sure that the person you are giving yourself to is of sufficient moral fiber that you would know that an order from them would only come after the morals of the situation had been thought through and their moral standards are at least at the same level if not higher than your own.


quote:

Besides, I also feel that any so-called, "Master" who would command their slave to lie, steal, and/or cheat for them, is a person of deplorable character and has no business owning a slave in the first place.



A really good point. Another thing alot of people dont realise with "no limits" As this topic is touching "no limits" Mention no limits and people are like well........ would you do this this this and that? (what kind of person are you?) Which is moot Because hopefully before you are in a situation where you say no limits, you know the person well enough to already know they're not going to say "go cut off your foot" Or any other nutsy thing. As a submissive you should be ABLE to get to know these s/o's well enough to know they wouldnt ask you to go do any terrible thing.

Like everyone says, you are responsible before you make the decision.

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 4:14:57 PM   
RiotGirl


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quote:

Well the Owner doesn't expect me to blindly follow, he likes knowing that I keep my eyes and ears open so he can use me and my talents as such.

However, when the gavel goes down, it doesn't matter what my eyes see or ears here, it matters what he has judged as the thing to do.


i ment with "blindly following" as Never Questioning your Dominant.

Almost goes hand and hand with "blind faith" for those that are religious. Never questioning their faith, always knowing there's a good reason, no doubts, ect ect ect.

Hope i cleared up what blindly following ment as you were able to clear up mute/moot for me = )

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 4:58:23 PM   
LadyMindParadox


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quote:


However, when the gavel goes down, it doesn't matter what my eyes see or ears here, it matters what he has judged as the thing to do.


Emerald,

I have to say, I love your posts, but I saw a typo in your post and couldn't help myself. No harm meant, just found it amusing for some reason, but I freely admit that I'm odd.

I understand the pet peeve, I've almost lost my tongue a few times as I have the same affliction myself.

LadyMindParadox

partner to LordMindParadox

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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 6:28:20 PM   
miikaawaadizi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl
i ment with "blindly following" as Never Questioning your Dominant.

Almost goes hand and hand with "blind faith" for those that are religious. Never questioning their faith, always knowing there's a good reason, no doubts, ect ect ect.

Hope i cleared up what blindly following ment as you were able to clear up mute/moot for me = )


we may question our Masters, just not their authority. the difference is subtle but important :)

"slave failure" is the safeguard for girls. a slave girl obeys, it comes with the job description. she might ask for clarification, to try to understand the motives behind it or give the dominant a chance to rethink (most intelligent dominants appreciate it if their slave manages to stop them making an ass of themselves :P), but at the end of the day, if she is a slave, she will obey.

if she finds herself, for whatever reason, unwilling to obey, and refuses, then she fails to be a slave in that situation - a slave obeys, ergo disobeying is not the act of a slave. she might succeed to be a human being, a parent, or just in having common sense. but she still fails as a slave.

the term is harsh and has it's own consequences deliberately. slave failure doesn't assign blame, or causes, or anything else, it simply defines the act. it isn't something that should be taken lightly. as the channel bot has within it's definitions file:

quote:

the concept of failed slave is the safeguard, that one way a girl has to get out of a dire situation. but it's deliberately harsh to prevent it being used casually - the situation should be dire enough to warrant it ... where failing to be slave is preferable to the consequences of being a slave.


a slave doesn't blindly follow, because in this society, she can always choose to disobey. the question is, which is more important to her? these are absolutely the sort of questions every girl should ask themselves before they beg that collar, because if they want to live it seriously, they have to understand the consequences, fully.

I remember the discussion in the channel. I also remember all the worst case scenarios that were being thrown out. the simple answer is: if you believe the dominant likely to put you in that position, giving you a worst case scenario order ... look elsewhere for a collar. saying "oh, I can't do that, I didn't know you'd order me to do that, it's all your fault" is no excuse ... it's just making excuses for your own lack of convictions . the old saying "he made me do it" doesn't actually apply, even for a slave .. she always has this option, at least within society as it stands now.

quote:

Like everyone says, you are responsible before you make the decision.


and responsible for accepting the consequences of having made it as well, perhaps? slave failure is the "out" for slave girls. just unfortunate too many prefer to place the blame elsewhere, rather than accept responsibility for refusing to exercise it. begging a collar doesn't absolve a girl from personal responsibility. this isn't the neo-BDSM Exit to Eden Fantasy Island where you end up painting someone's house. you beg a collar, take the title of slave, you'd better be ready to accept the consequences of it. you don't get to pick and choose what bits you don't like, afterwards.

~miika

< Message edited by miikaawaadizi -- 7/14/2005 6:43:22 PM >

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