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RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 7:38:29 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, I know what you mean. Try as I might, I never seem to be able to take a man in a skirt seriously. Have you been cross-dressing long? More importantly, did that skirt come with a matching bra and panties set? Hmmm... it can get a little insulting when people who don't know you, and maybe don't understand your culture start acting as if they do, yes?

Your commentary here is really no suprise. You're the same guy who mailed one of my girls, out of the blue, and ranted about how Goreans weren't real blah blah blah.... I read it to her, so that you know, while she was serving my morning coffee from her knees. We both had a good laugh before we round-filed in the "obviously has way, way, way, too much time on his hands and nothing better to do with his life" folder. If you have nothing of value to add to this discussion other than the considerable amount of sand in your vagina (for whatever reason) about Goreans, why don't you just run along.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 7/14/2005 8:00:38 PM >

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to lovingmaster45)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 8:16:52 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
Personally, I think that a slave has an equal responsibility to herself as well as to her master. If the slave is lying, stealing, cheating etc for her master, then she is being negligent in her responsibility to herself. Besides, I also feel that any so-called, "Master" who would command their slave to lie, steal, and/or cheat for them, is a person of deplorable character and has no business owning a slave in the first place.

~Thorns



To me that just means you have a very limited black and white view of ethics and morality.

I can think of several situations where lying, cheating and stealing would be absolutely the right thing to do.

They are all very UNLIKELY situations, but all possible.

(in reply to MrThorns)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 8:19:45 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

quote:

Well the Owner doesn't expect me to blindly follow, he likes knowing that I keep my eyes and ears open so he can use me and my talents as such.

However, when the gavel goes down, it doesn't matter what my eyes see or ears here, it matters what he has judged as the thing to do.


i ment with "blindly following" as Never Questioning your Dominant.

Almost goes hand and hand with "blind faith" for those that are religious. Never questioning their faith, always knowing there's a good reason, no doubts, ect ect ect.

Hope i cleared up what blindly following ment as you were able to clear up mute/moot for me = )

The Owner expects me to asks questions of him, he encourages it.

(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/14/2005 8:20:33 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMindParadox
I have to say, I love your posts, but I saw a typo in your post and couldn't help myself. No harm meant, just found it amusing for some reason, but I freely admit that I'm odd.

I understand the pet peeve, I've almost lost my tongue a few times as I have the same affliction myself.

LadyMindParadox

partner to LordMindParadox


Gargh! I typo way too much, thanks :)

(in reply to LadyMindParadox)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 5:53:33 AM   
smilezz


Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline 		edited to read - Damn...smiley's still logged in
~Thorns

< Message edited by smilezz -- 7/15/2005 5:55:53 AM >

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

�*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,-:* �

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 5:56:47 AM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
Personally, I think that a slave has an equal responsibility to herself as well as to her master. If the slave is lying, stealing, cheating etc for her master, then she is being negligent in her responsibility to herself. Besides, I also feel that any so-called, "Master" who would command their slave to lie, steal, and/or cheat for them, is a person of deplorable character and has no business owning a slave in the first place.

~Thorns



To me that just means you have a very limited black and white view of ethics and morality.

I can think of several situations where lying, cheating and stealing would be absolutely the right thing to do.

They are all very UNLIKELY situations, but all possible.



I didn't realize that the thread was dealing with saving lives or protecting national security. To me, it seemed as though it was discussing a slave blindly following the instructions of a particular dominant, even though those instructions violated the law, "social morality" and/or the slaves own moral structure.

I have my standards and I do my best to uphold them, but would I compromise my standards in order to save a life, protect my family from real harm (Not hurt...'HARM'. Sometimes the best lessons are learned through hurt)

Nothing is ever as black and white as it may seem.

I am curious though; What are some instances in which you would be willing to compromise your values?

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 6:17:29 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
I didn't realize that the thread was dealing with saving lives or protecting national security. To me, it seemed as though it was discussing a slave blindly following the instructions of a particular dominant, even though those instructions violated the law, "social morality" and/or the slaves own moral structure.

The two are not mutually exclusive. I didn't take on any limitation other than discussing the slaves responsibilities to some ethical or moral code when owned.

quote:

I am curious though; What are some instances in which you would be willing to compromise your values?

~Thorns

I wouldn't actually, this is why it's so important to know who you are being owned by.

And why it's so important that a slave can disobey (in theory). Whether I would still consider myself a slave after disobeying is another issue.

Like I said, I knew there were circumstances I'd kill, steal, lie, break just about every social and ethical rule on the books LONG before I became owned.

If you're asking "what if your owner decided to order you to do something under circumstances you do not yourself believe merit breaking that ethical code?" then my honest answer is that I'm not sure, but my guess is that I would obey simply because I DO know him enough to know that he wouldn't do something like that frivolously and wouldn't be off his rocker when he gave the order.


(in reply to MrThorns)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 8:20:39 AM   
darksparkle


Posts: 48
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline 		I'm curious to know if those same people that would without hesitation lie and steel for their master would also kill or maim for him?

How about abandon their children for him? Prostitute yourself out for gang bang parties? Have a limb amputated? All your teeth pulled out? Your left breast removed? Have a third trimester abortion? Both your eyes blinded?

Where do you draw the line? Or do you? Please do not answer with my master would not ever have me do such things. I'm asking what happens if he does.

_____________________________

He reaches down & his fingers caress my cheek. Lifting my chin, his intense gaze holds me as he tells me to dance in the way that we choose to live. "Dance for me, my little sparkle, dance to the beat of a different drummer."....

(in reply to gentlesurrender)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 8:24:31 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle

I'm curious to know if those same people that would without hesitation lie and steel for their master would also kill or maim for him?

How about abandon their children for him? Prostitute yourself out for gang bang parties? Have a limb amputated? All your teeth pulled out? Your left breast removed? Have a third trimester abortion? Both your eyes blinded?

Where do you draw the line? Or do you? Please do not answer with my master would not ever have me do such things. I'm asking what happens if he does.

It depends, some of those things like "abandon my children" are something I consider bonkers. The Owner isn't bonkers so unless you want to ask the question "What happens if you can't trust your owner to be in his rational mind?" then it doesn't apply.

Would I leave the children in good care of someone else? There are circumstances I can see as possibly being the best option. In the World Wars, parents sent their children away from the war zones to try and keep protected while the parents stayed behind. I consider that right.

But flat out "abandoning"? I know the Owners ethics wouldn't allow that.

Now as far as the other, more personal things...I also know where he stands on them. I accepted where he stands on them for myself when I became owned by him.

(in reply to darksparkle)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 8:24:49 AM   
miikaawaadizi


Posts: 134
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle
I'm curious to know if those same people that would without hesitation lie and steel for their master would also kill or maim for him?


depends on the situation ... I'd kill to protect him, if his life was threatened. if he ordered me to do so, I guess the reason behind it would be important in deciding whether to obey or fail to be slave :P

quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle
How about abandon their children for him? Prostitute yourself out for gang bang parties? Have a limb amputated? All your teeth pulled out? Your left breast removed? Have a third trimester abortion? Both your eyes blinded?


I know of several girls that have "abandoned" their children to go live with a Master. I know several girls that are nymphomaniacs who would have no problems whatsoever being the party favour. I know that in some of the lifestyles, having bits removed is an act of devotion by the slave (tongues as well as teeth) not to mention if the slave happens to have a paraphilia for such.

so here's a question for you in return. if you were diagnosed with breast cancer, and needed a radical mastectomy, and were too scared to go ... then your Master orders you to go have the procedure. what's the difference? you have rotten teeth and are in pain, are afraid of dentists, and your Master makes you go. what's the difference? gangrene? and as for the children issue, what if you can't afford to provide for them, and he tells you that adopting them out or similar is better than the alternatives?

the difference is the context. the reasons behind those orders. the worst case scenarios you quoted above all are viable and rational, depending on the context. as a slave, you trust to your Master's judgement in evaluating the context, and you trust that his orders are not to your detriment. if you can't trust him at that level, then you shouldn't be in his steel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle
Where do you draw the line? Or do you? Please do not answer with my master would not ever have me do such things. I'm asking what happens if he does.


http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=126449

the answer is a simple question. are you a slave? or are you a human being/mother/law abiding whatever?

no-one said wearing steel was supposed to be easy.

~miika

< Message edited by miikaawaadizi -- 7/15/2005 8:42:33 AM >

(in reply to darksparkle)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 9:24:18 AM   
gentlesurrender


Posts: 99
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline 		thank you again to all those who have added to the posts,

a very clear, precise and understandable post, Archer.

The whole point of the thread was to analyse the desires within and to fully understand what I could be agreeing and submitting too.

I remember the discussion in the channel. I also remember all the worst case scenarios that were being thrown out. the simple answer is: if you believe the dominant likely to put you in that position, giving you a worst case scenario order ... look elsewhere for a collar. saying "oh, I can't do that, I didn't know you'd order me to do that, it's all your fault" is no excuse ... it's just making excuses for your own lack of convictions . the old saying "he made me do it" doesn't actually apply, even for a slave .. she always has this option, at least within society as it stands now.

It is because i do have the courage of my own convictions that i will seek to understand before agreeing to anything.

On reading the threads it has also become obvious that there are a good many Masters out there that do have values, morals, and high standards of care and the passing over of ones submission has been into good hands.

once again thank you all

_____________________________

We're never so vulnerable than when we trust someone - but paradoxically, if we cannot trust, neither can we find love or joy" Walter Anderson

(in reply to miikaawaadizi)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 10:23:29 AM   
Niran


Posts: 70
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline 		A quick question, one that has not been addressed-

The OP asked about legal ramifications. So you kill someone at the order of your master. You are arrested. Do you look your attorney in the eye and say "My Master made me do it." At what point do actions become personal responsibility?


IMHO, not doing something that is legally or morally wrong isnt failing as a slave. That could be construed as a deep desire to stay out of jail and off Karma's list. Lies, deciet, and refusal of reasonable and logical orders I could consider failure.



(in reply to gentlesurrender)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 10:25:12 AM   
darksparkle


Posts: 48
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2


quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle

I'm curious to know if those same people that would without hesitation lie and steel for their master would also kill or maim for him?

How about abandon their children for him? Prostitute yourself out for gang bang parties? Have a limb amputated? All your teeth pulled out? Your left breast removed? Have a third trimester abortion? Both your eyes blinded?

Where do you draw the line? Or do you? Please do not answer with my master would not ever have me do such things. I'm asking what happens if he does.

It depends, some of those things like "abandon my children" are something I consider bonkers. The Owner isn't bonkers so unless you want to ask the question "What happens if you can't trust your owner to be in his rational mind?" then it doesn't apply.

Would I leave the children in good care of someone else? There are circumstances I can see as possibly being the best option. In the World Wars, parents sent their children away from the war zones to try and keep protected while the parents stayed behind. I consider that right.

But flat out "abandoning"? I know the Owners ethics wouldn't allow that.

Now as far as the other, more personal things...I also know where he stands on them. I accepted where he stands on them for myself when I became owned by him.



quote:

ORIGINAL: miikaawaadizi

quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle
I'm curious to know if those same people that would without hesitation lie and steel for their master would also kill or maim for him?


depends on the situation ... I'd kill to protect him, if his life was threatened. if he ordered me to do so, I guess the reason behind it would be important in deciding whether to obey or fail to be slave :P

quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle
How about abandon their children for him? Prostitute yourself out for gang bang parties? Have a limb amputated? All your teeth pulled out? Your left breast removed? Have a third trimester abortion? Both your eyes blinded?


I know of several girls that have "abandoned" their children to go live with a Master. I know several girls that are nymphomaniacs who would have no problems whatsoever being the party favour. I know that in some of the lifestyles, having bits removed is an act of devotion by the slave (tongues as well as teeth) not to mention if the slave happens to have a paraphilia for such.

so here's a question for you in return. if you were diagnosed with breast cancer, and needed a radical mastectomy, and were too scared to go ... then your Master orders you to go have the procedure. what's the difference? you have rotten teeth and are in pain, are afraid of dentists, and your Master makes you go. what's the difference? gangrene? and as for the children issue, what if you can't afford to provide for them, and he tells you that adopting them out or similar is better than the alternatives?

the difference is the context. the reasons behind those orders. the worst case scenarios you quoted above all are viable and rational, depending on the context. as a slave, you trust to your Master's judgement in evaluating the context, and you trust that his orders are not to your detriment. if you can't trust him at that level, then you shouldn't be in his steel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle
Where do you draw the line? Or do you? Please do not answer with my master would not ever have me do such things. I'm asking what happens if he does.


http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=126449

the answer is a simple question. are you a slave? or are you a human being/mother/law abiding whatever?

no-one said wearing steel was supposed to be easy.

~miika
You're both rationalizing. It was a yes or no question.... Can you answer either yes or no?


_____________________________

He reaches down & his fingers caress my cheek. Lifting my chin, his intense gaze holds me as he tells me to dance in the way that we choose to live. "Dance for me, my little sparkle, dance to the beat of a different drummer."....

(in reply to miikaawaadizi)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 10:28:25 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle
You're both rationalizing. It was a yes or no question.... Can you answer either yes or no?


The questions you asked don't have a clear answer, whether it's the question or the answer that causes this, I don't know.

As I said in my first response, even I am not 100% certain of how I would respond, but I gave you what I felt the most likely response would be.

You can't ask a question which implies that everything you have come to know about a person is suddenly thrown out the window and expect some realistic clear response.

These are still excellent questions to ask, and I hope everyone REALLY asks them before they become owned by someone else.

(in reply to darksparkle)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 10:31:06 AM   
darksparkle


Posts: 48
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Niran

A quick question, one that has not been addressed-

The OP asked about legal ramifications. So you kill someone at the order of your master. You are arrested. Do you look your attorney in the eye and say "My Master made me do it." At what point do actions become personal responsibility?


IMHO, not doing something that is legally or morally wrong isnt failing as a slave. That could be construed as a deep desire to stay out of jail and off Karma's list. Lies, deciet, and refusal of reasonable and logical orders I could consider failure.


Sodomy is still illegal in some states... Does that prevent slaves from complying to their masters desire to take them anally for fear of breaking the law?? Are they choosing to disregard that particular law only?

_____________________________

He reaches down & his fingers caress my cheek. Lifting my chin, his intense gaze holds me as he tells me to dance in the way that we choose to live. "Dance for me, my little sparkle, dance to the beat of a different drummer."....

(in reply to Niran)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 10:42:03 AM   
darksparkle


Posts: 48
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2


quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle
You're both rationalizing. It was a yes or no question.... Can you answer either yes or no?


The questions you asked don't have a clear answer, whether it's the question or the answer that causes this, I don't know.

As I said in my first response, even I am not 100% certain of how I would respond, but I gave you what I felt the most likely response would be.

You can't ask a question which implies that everything you have come to know about a person is suddenly thrown out the window and expect some realistic clear response.

These are still excellent questions to ask, and I hope everyone REALLY asks them before they become owned by someone else.

Basically my question was aimed at those that stated they would flat out lie or steel without question to meet their masters demands. I'm not asking those individuals to rationalize under what circumstances they would comply or not as it is irrelevant if they stated they would do anything they were told to do without hesitation for their master in the name of slavery.

_____________________________

He reaches down & his fingers caress my cheek. Lifting my chin, his intense gaze holds me as he tells me to dance in the way that we choose to live. "Dance for me, my little sparkle, dance to the beat of a different drummer."....

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 10:48:30 AM   
miikaawaadizi


Posts: 134
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle
You're both rationalizing. It was a yes or no question.... Can you answer either yes or no?
quote:

Where do you draw the line? Or do you? Please do not answer with my master would not ever have me do such things. I'm asking what happens if he does.


That is not a yes or no answerable question

"what happens if he does?" "yes"
"where do you draw the line?" "no"

... that's not english.

the only part of the question that could possibly use a yes or a no answer is "or do you?" and the answer is obviously, "yes" ... if you choose to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Niran
IMHO, not doing something that is legally or morally wrong isnt failing as a slave.

it isn't about failing as a slave. it's about failing to be a slave. if you're a slave, you obey. it's that simple. there are no moral ambiguities, there are no grey areas, you signed up for and claimed the title of slave, you wear the steel, and that's one of the consequences of doing so. she has to make the decision what is more important to her. submitting to the will of her Master, and accepting the consequences of that (including the consequences of anything she does on his behalf), or not.

she is still the one that has that safeguard, if the consequences of obeying are more than the consequence of disobeying - to fail to be a slave. because of that safeguard, "my Master made me do it" is not an excuse, or a defence. she made the conscious choice to remain true to her choice to be a slave, with all that comes with it, and chose not to use the safeguard. she has to accept the responsibilities and consequences of that choice.

if the girl doesn't like the concept of obeying, because it offends her morals, her principles, or whatever, then the answer is simple - she fails to be a slave, by definition, by disobeying.

quote:


> 1. A person who is held in bondage to another; one who is
> wholly subject to the will of another; one who is held as
> a chattel; one who has no freedom of action, but whose
> person and services are wholly under the control of
> another.


it doesn't matter how many ways people want to try to wriggle out of it ... a slave has no freedom of action. to disobey, to put her own judgement, her own values, her own standards, above those of her Master, is simply not part of the definition. therefore, she fails to be a slave, because the only way she can choose to do that is to not be a slave at the moment she chooses to disobey.

that is what it means to be a slave. if a girl wants to place her own limits on what she might be required to do after she's in a Master's steel, if she wants to supplant his judgement with her own, if she wants the "right" to disobey, and those are requirements for her, then she is a subbie, not a slave. subbies set conditions on their submission - slaves do not. it's right there in the definition. anything else is no different than topping from the bottom.

~miika

< Message edited by miikaawaadizi -- 7/15/2005 10:57:03 AM >

(in reply to darksparkle)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 11:16:56 AM   
miikaawaadizi


Posts: 134
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle
Basically my question was aimed at those that stated they would flat out lie or steel without question to meet their masters demands. I'm not asking those individuals to rationalize under what circumstances they would comply or not as it is irrelevant if they stated they would do anything they were told to do without hesitation for their master in the name of slavery.

in other words, you're asking doormats, not slaves.

slaves (Gorean ones at least) tend to be prized for their intelligence, and that intelligence means that they will rationalize the circumstances, and choose based on context.

maybe next time, you can direct the question to the proper audience?

~miika
p.s. before you quote the quote from the dictionary above in response to this, go back and read about the safeguard of slave failure.

< Message edited by miikaawaadizi -- 7/15/2005 11:21:17 AM >

(in reply to darksparkle)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 11:31:55 AM   
darksparkle


Posts: 48
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: miikaawaadizi

quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle
Basically my question was aimed at those that stated they would flat out lie or steel without question to meet their masters demands. I'm not asking those individuals to rationalize under what circumstances they would comply or not as it is irrelevant if they stated they would do anything they were told to do without hesitation for their master in the name of slavery.

in other words, you're asking doormats, not slaves.

slaves (Gorean ones at least) tend to be prized for their intelligence, and that intelligence means that they will rationalize the circumstances, and choose based on context.

maybe next time, you can direct the question to the proper audience?

~miika
p.s. before you quote the quote from the dictionary above in response to this, go back and read about the safeguard of slave failure.

I have....
For the record it was not I that labeled one a doormat or one a slave based upon their answer.
I am merely trying to get a simply yes or no answer from those I had mentioned, no judgments or labels necessary.


_____________________________

He reaches down & his fingers caress my cheek. Lifting my chin, his intense gaze holds me as he tells me to dance in the way that we choose to live. "Dance for me, my little sparkle, dance to the beat of a different drummer."....

(in reply to miikaawaadizi)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Slave's Obedience - 7/15/2005 11:34:36 AM   
RandBcouple


Posts: 86
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline
If i trust Him enough to be my Owner....i trust Him enough to know that whatever He asks of me has a good reason behind it and our best interest at heart. No matter what His command may be. It's not about proving myself as a slave, it's simply what it is....i am His, i take that seriously, it's not a game or a role i play, it's not a fetish, or a scene, it's my reality. Not only do i obey Him as His slave, but also as His wife.

He doesn't wake up one day and say, hey ya know what, i won't control you today, just do what ya want, go off and do whatever, i'll skip a day of my responsibilities as your Master because i am not in the mood.....He is my Master every second of everyday, through good and bad....so how could i not be His, obey completely, be His slave with as much dedication and devotion as He is my owner.....so, the question of, would you kill for him, would you lie, cheat, steal, etc etc etc,.......my answer will always be, yes....that how confident i am in the choice i made for a Master....i can rest assure that no matter what He has me do, He has good reason behind it, even when i don't like it or understand it.

~hugs~
Babygirl

btw, there's no where i'd rather be than under my Masters feet, so, yes i am a proud doormat : )

< Message edited by RandBcouple -- 7/15/2005 11:35:34 AM >

(in reply to miikaawaadizi)
Profile   Post #: 60
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