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Gun Question - 9/9/2007 5:10:17 AM

NeedToUseYou

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I'm looking to buy a gun. I've had stuff stolen around here recently and it looks like my back door was attempted to be broken in to.

I've just installed a security system with motion detectors and door entry stuff, but more than likely it's some fucking meth head. So, who knows what they'll try. I'm also installing night vision cameras and security lighting to cover the whole outside and inside.

Anyway, I'm not looking for the most premo mega mankiller on the market, either. I'm looking for a gun that doesn't require much or any maintenance, cheaper ammo and can send the basic message. So, I'm guessing a smaller caliber. It's not my intention to blow off their leg with a single bullet. But rather fuck-em up a bit.

And no I don't plan on shooting anyone unless they come in and threaten me, either, just to head off the anti-gun people. And there are no kids around to endanger with a guns presence, just adults.

So, what's the best low maintenance, cheap ammo, small caliber hand gun.

Oh, yeah, and it needs to be semi-automatic, and use a magazine(guess that's what it's called).

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 9/9/2007 5:15:48 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 5:15:59 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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S&W J Frame Model 60 .357/.38+P

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=11101&langId=-1&productId=14754&tabselected=over&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=15704

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Post #: 2

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 5:18:03 AM

SlaveOwnerDave

Posts: 113
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Petaluma, CA
Status: offline

Hi NeedToUseYou,

My mother asked Me this question years ago, so I researched it.

Forty-four Special with 'wadcutter' bullets in the cartridges. It has good stopping power, but is less likely to go through walls. These cartridges can be had at gun shops, rather than K-Mart, etc.

Not small-caliber, but effective.

Sincerely,
Slave Owner Dave

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 3

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 5:21:21 AM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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If you don't have a lot of experience with guns, I suggest buying a pump action shotgun in the 410 or 20 gauge range. Mossberg makes a 410 pump action shotgun exactly for the purpose you mentioned. They have reasonable recoil, they are easy to operate, and they don't require a lot of maintenance. Don't buy a small caliber handgun. It takes skill to hit a target with a handgun and that skill takes constant practice. Cheap handguns like that malfunction a great deal of the time and they aren't something you want to bet your life on. When you shoot someone, you want them to go down and stay there. A injured person can still harm you and their motivation to do so is elevated in an encounter like that.

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Post #: 4

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 5:24:17 AM

farglebargle

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From: Albany, NY
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Um... I dunno... Seems to me that a revolver would require the LEAST maintenance of any weapon.

And OF COURSE they're going to go to the range and shoot every couple of days or a week until they're comfortable.

The shotgun *might* be a better choice for those handgun-paranoid jurisdiction. And it's got a hell of a lot of deterrent value.

_____________________________

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Post #: 5

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 5:26:32 AM

NeedToUseYou

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

S&W J Frame Model 60 .357/.38+P

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=11101&langId=-1&productId=14754&tabselected=over&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=15704

Sorry, edited my original message, to want a magazine. For quick loading, I don't really want to leave it loaded all the time. I'm paranoid a bit about that, and don't want to have to fumble with loading individual bullets if the need arose.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 6

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 5:28:49 AM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Um... I dunno... Seems to me that a revolver would require the LEAST maintenance of any weapon.

And OF COURSE they're going to go to the range and shoot every couple of days or a week until they're comfortable.

The shotgun *might* be a better choice for those handgun-paranoid jurisdiction. And it's got a hell of a lot of deterrent value.

I can maintain it if that is what is necessary, I do want it to load easily, without needing it loaded all the time though, that is really the only reason for a magazine.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 7

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 5:36:04 AM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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You can't beat a shotgun for home defense purposes. I grew up with guns and I own a few handguns. But the gun I keep loaded at home is my 12 gauge shotgun. If someone breaks into my home, they are going to hear me rack a shell and hopefully retreat. If a burglar is armed, they are probably going to be carrying a handgun. I'll put my 12 guage up against any handgun. I suggested a 410 or 20 guage because they are not as intimidating to a new shooter. A 410 has more impact power than a .44 magnum. You don't have to be a marksman to use one. They are simple point and click weapons. They are much less likely to go through the wall and hit innocent bystanders.

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Post #: 8

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 5:36:07 AM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

If you don't have a lot of experience with guns, I suggest buying a pump action shotgun in the 410 or 20 gauge range. Mossberg makes a 410 pump action shotgun exactly for the purpose you mentioned. They have reasonable recoil, they are easy to operate, and they don't require a lot of maintenance. Don't buy a small caliber handgun. It takes skill to hit a target with a handgun and that skill takes constant practice. Cheap handguns like that malfunction a great deal of the time and they aren't something you want to bet your life on. When you shoot someone, you want them to go down and stay there. A injured person can still harm you and their motivation to do so is elevated in an encounter like that.

Didn't even think about shotguns. I don't have any gun experience. My only thought on small caliber was that, with the laws how they are, (been looking up court cases, of people killing intruders), if I killed them, even sometimes when the criminal has a history of violence, and is on drugs, they still try to get the property owner on murder. So, at least my thoughts were, if I shot them with a small caliber, they'd probably stop, but not die.

It's a fucked up world.

I do like the pump action shotgun idea, it's semi-automatic, and doesn't require good aiming skills.

I'll have to look at them more.

Thanks.

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 9/9/2007 5:38:41 AM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 5:46:47 AM

subrob1967

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(fast reply)

Another good thing about the shotgun is, you don't have to use 00 shells, you can use a smaller shell to injure but not kill.

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Post #: 10

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 5:47:05 AM

instynctive

Posts: 2726
Status: offline

I'd stick with a shotgun too.. less hassle and no paperwork (at least here in Maine).

Get yourself a Remington model 870 20 gauge pump: http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_express.asp

Remington has always been considered the "working man's" firearms, and it the only thing I'll take into the woods when I go hunting..

Ammunition-wise, you can get a crate of ammo for the thing at Walmart for like $15... stick with the #7 or #8 target shot... that'll pepper the hell out of an intruder, but won't blow huge holes in your walls.. some sanding, some spackle, some paint and the walls are fixed.

That, and there's nothing that'll put a pucker on someone's sphincter like hearing a shotgun "racked".

If you absolutely positively MUST have a semi-auto handgun, stick with a basic 9mm... although I might even go with a 10mm or .40 cal since those have the muzzle velocity of a 9mm, but the knock-down of a .45 cal.

Maybe a little .22 LR would be good too... not a "big boom", but I bet it would hurt like a mother.

Since you are obviously inexperienced with firearms, I would *strongly* recommend you get into a hunter safety course/firearms handling course. Guns are not things to screw around with. Also, check with your local PD regarding specific laws for your area in regards to home defense. Here in Maine, if someone comes into this house that was not specifically invited in, I can shoot them.

A couple other things and I'll get off My soapbox...

1) There is a disturbing trend of invaders being shot or injured during break-ins who then turn around and sue the homeowner.
2) Never "shoot to kill". Even law enforcement is trained to not "shoot to kill". Cops are trained to hit "center mass", ie. middle of the torso. When I was qualifying on handguns, I did the "bullet hole smilie face" ala. Mel Gibson in one of the Lethal Weapons movies.. I think My arms STILL hurt from all the pushups I had to do for that little trick.

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RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 5:51:24 AM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

(fast reply)

Another good thing about the shotgun is, you don't have to use 00 shells, you can use a smaller shell to injure but not kill.

Thanks, that is a good idea. So, can you load the first shells to be a smaller shell, and then the second round to be a more deadly shell.

Yeah, I'm pretty dumb when it comes to guns.

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Post #: 12

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 5:55:43 AM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: instynctive

I'd stick with a shotgun too.. less hassle and no paperwork (at least here in Maine).

Get yourself a Remington model 870 20 gauge pump: http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_express.asp

Remington has always been considered the "working man's" firearms, and it the only thing I'll take into the woods when I go hunting..

Ammunition-wise, you can get a crate of ammo for the thing at Walmart for like $15... stick with the #7 or #8 target shot... that'll pepper the hell out of an intruder, but won't blow huge holes in your walls.. some sanding, some spackle, some paint and the walls are fixed.

That, and there's nothing that'll put a pucker on someone's sphincter like hearing a shotgun "racked".

If you absolutely positively MUST have a semi-auto handgun, stick with a basic 9mm... although I might even go with a 10mm or .40 cal since those have the muzzle velocity of a 9mm, but the knock-down of a .45 cal.

Maybe a little .22 LR would be good too... not a "big boom", but I bet it would hurt like a mother.

Since you are obviously inexperienced with firearms, I would *strongly* recommend you get into a hunter safety course/firearms handling course. Guns are not things to screw around with. Also, check with your local PD regarding specific laws for your area in regards to home defense. Here in Maine, if someone comes into this house that was not specifically invited in, I can shoot them.

A couple other things and I'll get off My soapbox...

1) There is a disturbing trend of invaders being shot or injured during break-ins who then turn around and sue the homeowner.
2) Never "shoot to kill". Even law enforcement is trained to not "shoot to kill". Cops are trained to hit "center mass", ie. middle of the torso. When I was qualifying on handguns, I did the "bullet hole smilie face" ala. Mel Gibson in one of the Lethal Weapons movies.. I think My arms STILL hurt from all the pushups I had to do for that little trick.

Thanks for the info, I do plan on taking a gun class. I'm not even all that much into guns, so this whole thing will be purely academic. Whatever, it takes to make me look the best responsible gun owner, is prudent in my view, just in case an unfortunate scenario should call my competence into question. Like actually using it for its purpose. LOL.

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Post #: 13

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 6:11:11 AM

InfernoMDM

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/20/2005
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First off none of you guys read the guy wants a semi auto. That said I am not a big fan of revolvers, but they are good weapons. Personally I just don't like the grip angle.

I do like the shotgun idea, but it seems many of you believe that its easier to shoot then a pistol, but at that range you still have to aim. I also wouldn't go any lower then buck, because you can never always get the close enough shot to make bird and turkey to do the damage everyone things. Also its easier to aim then a pistol, and faster to learn, but these days you really should go with a semi auto.

NeedToUseYou - First things first, caliber shouldn't be a major concer, it should be shot placement. Most pistol calibers from 9mm-45ACP(yes that includes 357-38) all do about the same damage. That said there are a number of choices on the market that are reliable low to no maintenance, and accurate. Although people believe that rounds will blow peoples arms off, make huge smoking holes in someones body, thats not the case at all. What you want is penetration of the round. Preferably 13 inches, which is the optimum depth for pistols.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/InfernoMDM/lightfighter/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/InfernoMDM/lightfighter/Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg

Since this is a self defense handgun you have lots of choices. I am going to suggest because you seem to be a new shooter anything in 9mm. Expect (depending on state) to be spending between 450-750 on a reliable low maintenance handgun, that will last you.

These choices are in no particular order. There are more but these are the top performers at the moment.
Springfield XD
HK
SIG
Walther P99 series
S&W M+P
Glock

My favorites are the Walther P99, HK USP, and SIG but my preferred choice for the beginner is the Springfield XD, which is basically a better grip angle(this is preference, but its a standard angle unlike glock), and better manufactured Glock, for the same or less then a glock.

Any of these will do, I can't stress this enough....go to a range and shoot everything you can before you buy it! Many people make the mistake of getting a gun they have never shot, when they are a novice and either end up loving it but can't hit anything, or hating it.

I can give you specific details, of each platform, if you like and even send you to where to get the manuals. Also if you pick up a pistol, be ready to wheel and deal a bit. Most gun shops are use to this and have marked up the price considerably. Don't be afraid to find out who will accept weapons shipped from the internet(you need a FFL) for a decent price 30-50bucks, and looking on a site such as Gunbroker.com. Be careful, and you can always ask me if you see something of interest. Many legitment gun dealers use that site to sell firearms, so it can be pretty safe if you know what to look for.

Don't get overwhelmed by caliber, don't be afraid of recoil(even a shotgun doesn't kick much with a recoil pad on the back. Shoot some, and above all else get at least a DVD on self defense with firearms. If need be I will burn you copy of one of mine, I have several, from novice on up.

< Message edited by InfernoMDM -- 9/9/2007 6:20:31 AM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 6:13:29 AM

mistoferin

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Which gun to own is a very personal preference. My suggestion to you would be to look at, handle and shoot a variety of guns and find one that YOU are comfortable with. If you have a gun show in your area that would be a great place to see a large variety of weapons and get a lot of different opinions from people who are familiar with guns.

As for small calibers not killing, I read an interesting article once that said that mob/executioner types preferred a .22 cal weapon because of their killing power. The round usually produces no exit wound on a head shot and richochets around inside the skull tearing up everything in it's path creating a lot of damage. I don't know how true that is but it certainly would seem to make sense.

As for the Remington 870 suggestion, while I normally like Remington's, I purchased an 870 combo in 12 guage and had a see through Nikon scope mounted. It has turned out to be one of my least favorite guns and I've just never been able to get consistent accuracy out of it. I have an old rust bucket of a 12 guage pump that I will grab every time over that one. Not saying that the gun is a bad choice, it certainly is popular and a lot of folks swear by it....just my experience with it has been rather disappointing.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 9/9/2007 6:14:16 AM >

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RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 6:25:28 AM

openwatercruise

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my personal choice is an enexpensive but very reliabe automatic. A Bersa thunder .380 caliber. it relatively small not a lot of money and the .380 caiber has enough power to get the job done without a lot of kick like some of the larger calibers. the best advice I can give is whatever you deside on take it and shoot it as much as possable so that you are comfortabe with it and can hit what you aim at.

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Post #: 16

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 6:26:20 AM

InfernoMDM

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/20/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Which gun to own is a very personal preference. My suggestion to you would be to look at, handle and shoot a variety of guns and find one that YOU are comfortable with. If you have a gun show in your area that would be a great place to see a large variety of weapons and get a lot of different opinions from people who are familiar with guns.

As for small calibers not killing, I read an interesting article once that said that mob/executioner types preferred a .22 cal weapon because of their killing power. The round usually produces no exit wound on a head shot and richochets around inside the skull tearing up everything in it's path creating a lot of damage. I don't know how true that is but it certainly would seem to make sense.

Good advice on the first paragraph. As for the second this really isn't true. Most assasins really ended up being not very many. The 22 is a bad choice because it wont do much damage at all unless you are a crack shot, and even then it may not do enough damage. Many assasin/wannabe's use 22 because of its ease to silance, and concealability.

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Post #: 17

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 6:41:03 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM
Good advice on the first paragraph. As for the second this really isn't true. Most assasins really ended up being not very many. The 22 is a bad choice because it wont do much damage at all unless you are a crack shot, and even then it may not do enough damage. Many assasin/wannabe's use 22 because of its ease to silance, and concealability.

Well, as I said, I don't know how true it is. I should point out that the article was about mobsters and execution style killings where the gun was in VERY close proximity to the victim.

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There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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Post #: 18

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 6:43:05 AM

instynctive

Posts: 2726
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I still maintain that a shotgun is preferential for home defense.. what's the farthest range to target going to be? 15 feet? 20 feet? At that range with an "off the shelf" shotgun, the shot pattern will be what.. 12 inches or so? I'd take that 12" over half an inch any day of the week.

Buckshot will start punching holes in walls.. yes, it's got great take-down power, but is definitely overkill.. with practice, any gun owner can empty a pump shotgun in a matter of seconds, and that much shot (even the lighter target loads) will drop a human.

Something else that needs to be realized is that during home defense, the whole point is to thwart the invasion, not kill someone. Even if the law does not punish the homeowner for taking a human life, that's something that person will have to live with, and that level of responsibility can have lasting effects on a person's well-being.

Even if face to face with an armed assailant, the whole point is to neutralize the threat.. not necessarily kill them.

Don't purchase firearms off the internet, even if it saves you money. Shop and buy locally... there's a great "outdoors" store a couple hours from here that I do all My major purchases at, because the prices are great, and the people there are super at answering questions and offering up good advice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
Whatever, it takes to make me look the best responsible gun owner, is prudent in my view, just in case an unfortunate scenario should call my competence into question. Like actually using it for its purpose. LOL.

You do not want to *look* to be a responsible gun owner.. you have to BE a responsible gun owner, otherwise you are endangering others as well as yourself. Regardless of the caliber, guns were invented and are designed to kill. They should never be used as a "status symbol", and one of the very first things you will learn in any gun safety class is "never point the firearm at anything you do not intend to kill." That goes for squirrels, deer, turkey or people.

On the other hand, and completely avoiding all of this.. bulk up the security at your home (thicker doors, metal-reinforced deadbolts, etc.) and submit complaints to the PD as soon as a break-in attempt arises... don't touch anything or move anything...

Let the cops do the legwork and the shooting.

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Post #: 19

RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 6:44:06 AM

instynctive

Posts: 2726
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Well, as I said, I don't know how true it is. I should point out that the article was about mobsters and execution style killings where the gun was in VERY close proximity to the victim.

Yup.. a .22 to the back of the skull will puree a brain in no time flat.

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