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RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 9:35:37 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM

Yes if your Cop friend cut it off from a 18 inch to a less then legal size he isn't to bright.  Depending on how much you cut down a shotgun determins its effects, but amoos does as well.  The time for getting caught with a unregistered short barrel shotgun isn't worth it.  Now he could have it cut to 18 inches say from 22+ which is fine.

There is s little differnce if you look at my previous post I show photos(linked) of the differnce.  check out tacticalforums.com these guys are all in the industry trying to make a better bullet, or get the right info to the men who shoot.  You can look it up.

Genereally speaking anything from 9-45 will go about 13 inches depending on grains.  The larger rounds however have a slight(yes slight) advantage when traveling through walls etc.




Thats over simplified.

i use a 10mil with a slightly modified 150 hp pill. at 1500+
made that choice because its light handy and i get 44 mag  performance with off the shelf ammo.

now use your imagination and compare that to the pic of your 125 hp pill at 1300+

i wont even mention my fav, the 454.


I can't give you any defiante info on the 10mm as compared to the other rounds, execpt its only  a bit better.  I believe most of the penetration levels run between 13-16" which is 2-3" more then your avearge rounds on the market.

I over simplify this because tis a very hard topic to discuss, without someone getting but hurt about not haveing a big enough bullet usually.  That and I don't know everything about the subject, but generally more then most internet wizards.

That said the FBi, and several independant firms haven't seen any really advantage with the 10mm as compared to your normal rounds carried by LE.  Someone posted a link to the FBI site and they do a indepth talk about it.

For its added penetration benifit there are several losses, and hydro___ (whatever you prefer it is all discussing the same thing) basicly doesn't do anything better then the rest of the bullets.




To the contrary the fbi liked the 10 for many of the same reasons i already stated and  they could unload it in someone who was drugged up and for th emost part it took them down whereas the 9 often did not.  

So the fbi went to the 10m for a short time, but went back to the 9m and it had nothign to do with penetration or other ballistics characteristics.

They are candy asses and the 10 kicks to much!  wahh wahhh LMAO!

Well for what its worth those links you put up are representative hydrodynamic shock and penetration etc.

Apparently you do not have a very good imagination then.  That damage area is considerably larger with my set up.  To say they are all the same or to close to call is simply uneducated.

That and i make minor modifications the round such that they expel preferably all or at least as much of their energy as possible in approx 1 ft of penetration so i dont have to worry about it going through walls and killing the next door neighbor too.

You can get similar performance out of your 357 if you likewise load it up with 150 pill and do the same speed 1500+, but then you need to get yourself the reloader and its frankly been so long since I looked i do know trhat once upon a time there was one mfg that made powder hot enough to pull that velocity out of it, but anyway you will have to load your own if you want to piss around like that and often you end up burning the barrel and widening the cylinder barrel clearance.

If you dont mind the bulk then look at a 44mag, they are sweet and if you really want to perforate someones ass get a 454.  









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RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 9:42:43 AM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Shotgun and birdshot, or you can pry open the end (carefully and fill with rock salt and seal it up and paint wax on the end) I prefer semi autos like Browning A5 or as I call them clitorees (Citori) and if you want to blow garbage can size holes you can cut the shell behind the  load. 

So if you wanted to go a slug, put it in the magazine first so it is the last one out, put 4 birdshots or rocksalts in, and save deadly pumpkin slinging for last.

Ron



i aint comin within a block of yer house!

nice!


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 10:17:24 AM   
petdave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
A cop bud of mine sawed one off for his wife. (must be a complete idiot)



No, he's not an idiot.  He's a cop.  Many times they are above the law for things like this.  Think his cop buddies would arrest him for that?  No way.  You, on the other hand, may not be so lucky. 


An under-length shotgun isn't a local issue, it's federal, and they don't fuck around. Of course, it's absolutely possible that he might have it legally, but for the average person, it isn't worth dealing with the cost and hassle of getting the tax stamp. An 18" shottie is plenty maneuverable enough for home defense use... hell, i could even sling my Persuader under my trenchcoat if i wanted to strut the streets all action-movie like.

(in reply to ArgoGeorgia)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 10:32:56 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Revolvers/Mateba_Model_6.htm

That's the gun on my wishlist.  I saw one at a gunshow recently.  They are fucking awesome. 

(in reply to petdave)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 10:51:03 AM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

You can't beat a shotgun for home defense purposes.  I grew up with guns and I own a few handguns.  But the gun I keep loaded at home is my 12 gauge shotgun.  If someone breaks into my home, they are going to hear me rack a shell and hopefully retreat.  If a burglar is armed, they are probably going to be carrying a handgun.  I'll put my 12 guage up against any handgun.  I suggested a 410 or 20 guage because they are not as intimidating to a new shooter.  A 410 has more impact power than a .44 magnum.  You don't have to be a marksman to use one.  They are simple point and click weapons.  They are much less likely to go through the wall and hit innocent bystanders.    


They won't "hear" me rack a shell.
If they listen carefully thay "may" hear the quiet "click" of the safety.
You don't "shoot to wound", you could miss trying that!
If someone gets into your house *don't even say anything* just open fire! Center mass.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 10:56:12 AM   
instynctive


Posts: 2726
Status: offline 		Or, I could put a broahead through the intruder's skull.. talk about stealth.. yeah. :-)

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 11:01:25 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Revolvers/Mateba_Model_6.htm

That's the gun on my wishlist.  I saw one at a gunshow recently.  They are fucking awesome. 



         Why???  The whole appeal of a revolver, to me at least, is based on simplicity and reliability.  The novelty toy in the link strikes me as the worst of both worlds.  You have the smaller number of shots from a revolver AND more shit to not work right when it is about life and death.

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 11:08:19 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

  Why???  The whole appeal of a revolver, to me at least, is based on simplicity and reliability.  The novelty toy in the link strikes me as the worst of both worlds.  You have the smaller number of shots from a revolver AND more shit to not work right when it is about life and death.


I want it for the novelty of it.  I think it would be a fun to shoot, and it is definitely a conversation piece.  As I said in my previous posts, I have a shotgun for home defense.  All guns don't have to be used solely for defense purposes.   

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 11:12:50 AM   
Petronius


Posts: 289
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		If your idea of buying a gun is to "fuck them up a bit" then you should not be buying a gun until you know what guns should be used for.

Once you do, the old pump 12 is still the best weapon to defend life and property.

It also seems to me that if you're being robbed, a security system that consists of alarms and cameras is not a substitute for good doors, good locks, and window grates. You want to keep them out rather than have nifty pictures of them breaking in.

If, however, you still want to get a gun, I suggest you look up your local firing range or shooting club in the yellow pages, go there, and talk to several members about your desires.


(in reply to instynctive)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 11:20:25 AM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I want it for the novelty of it.  I think it would be a fun to shoot, and it is definitely a conversation piece.     



       Fair enough.  Men and boys and the price of our toys....  I can't find a single practical reason for the Morningstar in the closet, but it is fun to show people, and occasionally smash stuff with.  I'd make very clear that toys like these should never be thought of for a primary weapon.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 11:22:18 AM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Petronius

If your idea of buying a gun is to "fuck them up a bit" then you should not be buying a gun until you know what guns should be used for.

Once you do, the old pump 12 is still the best weapon to defend life and property.

It also seems to me that if you're being robbed, a security system that consists of alarms and cameras is not a substitute for good doors, good locks, and window grates. You want to keep them out rather than have nifty pictures of them breaking in.

If, however, you still want to get a gun, I suggest you look up your local firing range or shooting club in the yellow pages, go there, and talk to several members about your desires.




A dog makes a hell of a lot of noise when it hears an intruder.  There are issues with an attack dog, but if one wants to go to the trouble of training and bonding it, they work wonders.

The noise  both wakes you up, and makes the burglar type intruder decide that your house is not worth intruding in to.

Then the intruder has to split focus between you and the dog, under adrenal stress, giving you more time to plant him/her/it.

Sinergy

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 11:31:38 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		I've not read through all the responses here... I get a little ill when men start spouting techno-garble on weapons in an orgasmic manner.

I personally own an Luger .22 similar to the one in this photo.  Something like it would seem to meet your original criteria.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 11:34:39 AM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		http://www.sigarms.com/Default.aspx

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 11:53:18 AM   
Crush


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

  Here is another endorsement of the pump action shotgun.  That sound is unmistakeable and in a universal language (much easier than learning to say "I have a gun," in Spanish, for instance).


Actually, if he hears the "ca chunk" of the pump, then it means I missed him with the first round and he wasn't deaf as a result of the first round as well.

One in the chamber, ready to go, in a self defense situation.  The time it takes to chamber a round is about the time someone from 10 or so feet would need to attack you with their knife, baseball bat, wild and crazy look....




< Message edited by Crush -- 9/9/2007 11:56:23 AM >

(in reply to TheIronHorse)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 12:05:03 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush
One in the chamber, ready to go, in a self defense situation.  The time it takes to chamber a round is about the time someone from 10 or so feet would need to attack you with their knife, baseball bat, wild and crazy look....



       Blasting away without any warning is how you wind up an anti-gun statistic, who has to live with killing the wrong person.  I, for one, would far rather clean up the urine stains on the carpet than try to get the blood off the walls.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 12:16:02 PM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

I've not read through all the responses here... I get a little ill when men start spouting techno-garble on weapons in an orgasmic manner.

I personally own an Luger .22 similar to the one in this photo.  Something like it would seem to meet your original criteria.



I'm glad you carry, but for myself, and that's who I can speak for, I want a bigger round.  I don't want the bad guy to stop eventually....I want him to stop immediately.  He'll bleed to death with the .22 eventually, but with the .38 or the 9mm...he's on the ground now.


I shoot quite a bit at the local range.  I use a .22 Browning for that practice, since ammo is so cheap.   Target shooting is a great hobby, since it forces you to concentrate, to think, to be in tune with your environment.   I am doing OK, able to punch out the center of Aces from a deck of cards at 15 yds.

But the most fun, especially when I was the CTO, was to take down email addresses I printed out and all those stupid purchase request forms!   I would go during lunch to the range and shoot out the @ symbols in the emails and "Sign the form" with a dotted signature. 

Amazingly, when I returned from lunch I had a much better attitude!  Of course shooting effigies via email addresses helped quite a bit!

----------

But for self defense, the gun is an equalizer.   A 90 lb woman and a 250 lb man are equally defended.

Get what's comfortable, NeedsToUueYou.   Be darn sure you are willing to actually use it.  

Either that, or get yourself some "security slaves" that just watch over things for you....maybe a couple of puppy-slaves?



(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 12:40:29 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		I do well enough with my .22 and I'm a decent shot.  Thankfully I've never needed to stop anyone and hopefully I will never have to, but I'm prepared to if needed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

...get yourself some "security slaves" that just watch over things for you...


I've never known a male dominant who was content to let a female slave take the lead in defense.  I honestly couldn't imagine FirmhandKY even considering such a thing.

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 1:17:16 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		While we`re taking guns,....

This will bring up an old, but favorite thread.

http://www.scotusblog.com/movabletype/archives/2007/09/_second_amendme.html

Weren`t we just discussing this very subject?


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/9/2007 1:28:40 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 1:24:09 PM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Revolvers/Mateba_Model_6.htm

That's the gun on my wishlist.  I saw one at a gunshow recently.  They are fucking awesome. 


Hey, that's cool! i'd read about the Webley before, but i had no idea anyone had a modern one in production. i'm also a hobbyist/collector who likes unusual designs.

Now if only freakin' Calico will finally go back into production with their helical-mag guns...

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Gun Question - 9/9/2007 1:24:42 PM   
Casie


Posts: 450
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline 		I would reccomend a glock all the way. Get the G17 if you don't want a large caliber. 17 rounds of 9mm will do the trick and in the case that you would need more, then keep 2 more mags available. They are the most reliable semi-automatic that I have ever seen. I have a G21 .45 auto and it has never had one jam in the approximately 10,000 rounds I have put through it. It goes bang every time, easy as pie to maintain and clean, the easiest of any semi-auto pistol that I have ever seen actually. Also, they are the easiest pistol to use since all you need to know is PULL THE TRIGGER, lol. There is no thumb safety, decocker, or hammer to cock. Just rack a round into the chamber, put on target and shoot. Also, the 9mm is a very very popular round so practice ammo is cheap cheap cheap and defence ammunition comes in all kinds of variety. I would reccomend 124gr Speer Gold Dot ammunition for defence. Just my 2 cents on the topic.
Oh, and I saw a reference to sigs, be careful if you get a sig because they are prone to rust. I have seen a glock torture test that included freezing it, leaving it in the ocean for a week, dragging it behind a car, shooting the slide with a .22, and dropping it out of a small plane and it never had a problem. Hell, even if it is full of sand or baby powder it will function, try that with a Smith and Wesson, or a Sig.


< Message edited by Casie -- 9/9/2007 1:29:29 PM >

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 80
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