Random thoughts

Random thoughts (Full Version)

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tearfulsurrender -> Random thoughts (9/13/2007 8:24:14 PM)
I have a very strong dislike for the phrase "Gift of submission". I am not giving him anything that doesnt come naturally to me. Quite the opposite, I feel like what I give him sorely pales in comparison to all that he gives to me. He gives me his strength when i am weak; he gives me his courage when i am scared. He takes me physically to places i had once only fantasized about. I feel like I give him nearly nothing and it hurts my heart. What do you give a man who gives you everything? I give him the pieces of a heart broken long ago and a soul that has been shattered through years of distress. He deserves so much more than I can give. Each day I will strive harder to find something more to give the man who already has all of me.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Random thoughts (9/13/2007 9:26:02 PM)
Well for us it helps that we both feel that way about eachother. So I try to see what he sees in me, and show my gratitude to him and the universe as much as I can. Feeling humbled can be a great thing, but remember that if you keep insisting you aren't worth anything or giving him anything, it can wear him down if he has to keep convincing you otherwise AND says that you think his judgement sucks because he'd choose to be with someone who doesn't have anything worthwhile to share. As for the gift of submission issue... http://www.collarchat.com/m_1180353/mpage_1/key_gift/tm.htm#1180472 "submission is a gift" http://www.collarchat.com/m_725554/mpage_2/key_gift/tm.htm#725692 It ain't a gift http://www.collarchat.com/m_539780/mpage_1/key_gift/tm.htm#539948 The gift of submission http://www.collarchat.com/m_417971/mpage_2/key_gift/tm.htm#418195 submission is a gift!!!??? http://www.collarchat.com/m_285542/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#285542 If submission is a 'gift.' what's dominance? http://www.collarchat.com/m_199872/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#199872 The Gift you give to yourself http://www.collarchat.com/m_195087/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#195087 A gift??? http://www.collarchat.com/m_137582/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#137582 The Domly Gift http://www.collarchat.com/m_135667/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#135667 Why do so many view submission as a gift? http://www.collarchat.com/m_128811/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#128811 Do you consider your submission to someone a gift? http://www.collarchat.com/m_118674/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#118674 Gift or not... http://www.collarchat.com/m_109097/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#109097 The "gift" of submission http://www.collarchat.com/m_26446/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#26446 On the gift of submission http://www.collarchat.com/m_17487/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#17487 my thoughts on the "gift" of submission

Bobkgin -> RE: Random thoughts (9/14/2007 3:37:45 AM)
The "gift" you give is that which cannot be taken: Love, Trust, Respect. These are yours to give to whomever you believe deserves them. No one can take them or force you to give them. That you have overcome so much to be able to give these things to your partner when it would have been perhaps easier to never make yourself vulnerable again is a measure of how valuable these gifts are. For it is said the best gifts are the ones you make yourself out of love for another.

Focus50 -> RE: Random thoughts (9/14/2007 3:39:37 AM)
I don't believe in such a nonsensical notion, either! That's because the "gift" comes with strings attached, and I don't mean wrapping.... Every sub I've known wants, indeed, expects something in return for her unique "gift" and I do find that reasonable; it's that improper description which I loathe. In the vanilla World, I was just another fella but in later years when I gravitated to the lifestyle, I soon found I had a "gift" of my own that was equally of value to fem/subs as what they can offer the dominant me. As far as gifts go, they complement each other to create a D/s dynamic just as they cancel out each other in Net individual worth. Gift of submission meets gift of Domination - they are the same, and totally useless to anyone but a complementing opposite. Focus.

AquaticSub -> RE: Random thoughts (9/14/2007 3:49:00 AM)
What LA said.

adoracat -> RE: Random thoughts (9/14/2007 4:20:25 AM)
points at the quote miss aqua has as her sig line its a power exchange, absolutely. i give him control over me. that doesnt make his domination ANY less important, in fact it might be more so given the control with which he must wield it. kitten, who is all philisophical and shit with no sleep

Bobkgin -> RE: Random thoughts (9/14/2007 5:48:55 AM)
To suggest it is not a "gift" is to suggest it is a "payment" for services rendered, even if considered an "exchange". I do not see Love, Trust or Respect as a form of currency, and for many submissives these are requirements they must feel towards a dominant before submission occurs. Just what are the dom/mes who say they are not "gifts" doing to earn them, such that they expect Love and Trust and Respect in payment for their services? When did they negotiate the terms such that "I, the dom/me will do X and you, the submissive, will pay me Love and Trust and Respect in return."?

Absolutemaster -> RE: Random thoughts (9/14/2007 6:04:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin To suggest it is not a "gift" is to suggest it is a "payment" for services rendered, even if considered an "exchange". And what is wrong with an exchange, or a barter? She gives me her submission, I give her my Dominance. And so we fit together like two pieces of a puzzle. Sorted.

Stephann -> RE: Random thoughts (9/14/2007 6:54:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin To suggest it is not a "gift" is to suggest it is a "payment" for services rendered, even if considered an "exchange". I do not see Love, Trust or Respect as a form of currency, and for many submissives these are requirements they must feel towards a dominant before submission occurs. Just what are the dom/mes who say they are not "gifts" doing to earn them, such that they expect Love and Trust and Respect in payment for their services? When did they negotiate the terms such that "I, the dom/me will do X and you, the submissive, will pay me Love and Trust and Respect in return."? If Love, Trust, or Respect are not currencies, than certainly they may not be gifted. Furthermore, these are not emotions that one may permanently bestow; they must be constantly and consistantly fed. A submissive person is a person who prefers to accept a role of obedience and surrenders power within their (usually personal/intimate) relationships. To suggest that submission or love is a gift, reduces that submission and love to the status of currency. I don't negotiate terms, when it comes to love. I give all I have, and take all there is to be had. Anything less cheapens what we share. There is no 'gift' for me, with love; there is only love. There is no gift of dominance, I simply dominate; it is my nature, just as my partner's nature is to submit. To assert nature is a gift to be doled out in parcels asserts we have artificial control over nature; like using sheep's bladders to prevent earthquakes. Stephan

Bobkgin -> RE: Random thoughts (9/14/2007 7:31:11 AM)
"Gift": Something given Something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation. The act, right, or power of giving. Submission is a "gift". Love, Trust and Respect are "gifts".

Stephann -> RE: Random thoughts (9/14/2007 7:43:36 AM)
No, they're not. You can't transfer emotions; they are neither goods, nor services. To suggest otherwise, would require that once 'gifted' the submissive would no longer possess that trait. Once 'gifted' that there would be no more love. It's all semantics though, and a very old debate both here, and in the lifestyle. Personally, I'd like to see "Gift of Submission" added to a banned topic list, up there with "Sub vs Slave" and "Why Can't I Find a Cyber Slave." Stephan

Bobkgin -> RE: Random thoughts (9/14/2007 7:56:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann No, they're not. You can't transfer emotions; they are neither goods, nor services. So when someone who loves you gives you a present, or does something for you that you like, because she loves you, you do not feel loved as a result? If love cannot be expressed/communicated (ie transferred) then when would you ever know you are loved? *quote:* To suggest otherwise, would require that once 'gifted' the submissive would no longer possess that trait. Once 'gifted' that there would be no more love. So if I pour you a glass of water and give it to you without expectation of compensation, I've run out of water? Love is limited in quantity? If someone loves you today, she can't love you tomorrow, because the love she felt for you today used up the love she had for you (and if not tomorrow, then eventually)? If she cannot express her love in what she does and what she gives, and is not constantly generating this love for you because this is what she has chosen to give you, how then do you see her expressing her love?

Focus50 -> RE: Random thoughts (9/15/2007 4:46:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin "Gift": Something given Something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation. The act, right, or power of giving. Submission is a "gift". Love, Trust and Respect are "gifts". Pardon me while I re-jig your words a touch.... Something given or voluntarily transferred without compensation or expectation of anything in return? Yes, I'd call that a gift.... Something a submissive voluntarily offers (gift of submission) without expectation of something in return? Maybe only in your theoretical world of nit-picking word play.... Submission is a highly desirable quality to the dominant me that I can't get from your average vanilla female. But I've been around in the real world enough to know that non-abusive domination is something of equal value to fem/subs that they can't get from the average vanilla male.... There is NO one-way gift; the term is a nonsense! What we're really talking about is a fair and equal exchange of unique qualities - NO gift! Focus.

Cyntilating -> RE: Random thoughts (9/15/2007 6:56:51 AM)
Master uses the term " gift" sometimes when talking about my submission to Him.... when he says it, it is in the context of something he treasures about me and about Us.. I don't feel the need to tear it apart and dissect the term.. He calls my writing a gift, my massages a gift... my ability to feel others feelings, and anticipate his needs, a gift... my submission to him.. they are all from a place within me.... and the feeling of pride in me and appreciation for what it brings to our relationship comes from a place in him... so if he wants to use the term " zallllsbot" or gift or whatever.... its the feelings he is expressing, rather than the term, that I embrace anyway ... and when I hear others talking about it in their relationship> I focus on the feelings that must exist for them, rather than the term "gift". ...and I'm not really sure why it causes to much turmoil when brought up ...

Stephann -> RE: Random thoughts (9/15/2007 6:57:13 AM)
ORIGINAL: Bobkgin So when someone who loves you gives you a present, or does something for you that you like, because she loves you, you do not feel loved as a result? No. I feel she loves me, whether she gives me a present or not. Giving me a present is a small reminder of her love, certainly, and I treasure the thought and care she invested in demonstrating her affection; but the term 'token of affection' stands out strongly for me here. It is a tangible display of that affection she holds for me; but giving me that present in no way suggests she has permanently transferred something to me. If love cannot be expressed/communicated (ie transferred) then when would you ever know you are loved? I feel it. She demonstrates that affection, usually with every word and action we share. This doesn't mean she is not expressing or communicating; it means she is not transferring it. Transference means something moves from one place to the other. To suggest otherwise, would require that once 'gifted' the submissive would no longer possess that trait. Once 'gifted' that there would be no more love. So if I pour you a glass of water and give it to you without expectation of compensation, I've run out of water? Maybe. I don't know how much water you have. Love is limited in quantity? No. This would suggest that love comes in a supply. Love is not a tangible, quantifiable substance. It is an emotion that we express like happiness, sorrow, guilt, jealousy, joy, anger, etc. Truly, this is the distinction we are simply not seeing eye to eye with; in refusing to associate a 'value' on love, instead of insisting that it may be given as one could give a glass of water, I assert that love has no price. It is, indeed, priceless. It is an emotion that will be expressed for me, or not; it isn't the emotion she can 'give' me; all she may give (or not give) is the expressions of that love that exists whether it is desired by her or not. If someone loves you today, she can't love you tomorrow, because the love she felt for you today used up the love she had for you (and if not tomorrow, then eventually)? Under the approach that love can be gifted, yes. This is why I do not believe love (or submission) is a gift. If she cannot express her love in what she does and what she gives, and is not constantly generating this love for you because this is what she has chosen to give you, how then do you see her expressing her love? By being and sharing herself with me. Regards, Stephan

Celeste43 -> RE: Random thoughts (9/15/2007 7:05:15 AM)
Gift of submission is a very romantic way of looking at it. Some of us like romance. If you don't, that's fine but it's also fine that some of us do.

LATEXBABY64 -> RE: Random thoughts (9/15/2007 7:17:05 AM)
I love the way you put that. It is true. I just do not understand why people can't just enjoy something for what it is. Oh but that would be to much. we have to have grey clounds not the bright sunny day ones. no wonder we have bipolar prozac inc people. Celeste you are truely a free spirit do not let anyone change you. glad there are still people who enjoy the beauty of what life brings

Softone45 -> RE: Random thoughts (9/15/2007 7:33:11 AM)
Celeste, kudos to you, you said it exactly right. Submission is what it is for each of us. If we want to think of it as a gift, and our Doms are okay with it then so be it. Everyday i will give him the "gift" of my love and respect and devotion, as long as he and i agree on that, nothing more matters. I for one LOVE romance, and it does sound so romantic..(smile).

agirl -> RE: Random thoughts (9/15/2007 7:36:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tearfulsurrender I have a very strong dislike for the phrase "Gift of submission". I am not giving him anything that doesnt come naturally to me. Quite the opposite, I feel like what I give him sorely pales in comparison to all that he gives to me. He gives me his strength when i am weak; he gives me his courage when i am scared. He takes me physically to places i had once only fantasized about. I feel like I give him nearly nothing and it hurts my heart. What do you give a man who gives you everything? I give him the pieces of a heart broken long ago and a soul that has been shattered through years of distress. He deserves so much more than I can give. Each day I will strive harder to find something more to give the man who already has all of me. I don't see that it's got a lot to do with the phrase * gift of submission*. I can't DO what M does for me, he doesn't NEED or want those things. Good job too. I'd be crap at it. Maybe he gets something from the fact that you respect him and are appreciative? Isn't that a nice thing? agirl

RRafe -> RE: Random thoughts (9/15/2007 7:37:39 AM)
Give him your joy. But find it first.

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