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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 5:49:39 PM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

greetings breathasone,

what is "common sense" to many about limits in this life are not always "common sense" to everyone. the things that we do or that i would consider doing are far outside of the realm of "common sense" limits for most people - i'm definitely aware of that, though. hell, i used to have "common sense" limits myself.

not sure if that was the direction you were going in or that it's relevant, but i thought i'd throw it in there anyway! :) i apologize if it's not relevant.

respectfully,
annabelle.


I totally agree...thats why i said "to me" in that post and gave examples...


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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 5:51:50 PM   
texancutie


Posts: 322
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline 		In reality, we honestly don't know how real things are, or how fictious, fairly anonymous posts to the message boards are.  Sometimes I just haven't a clue.  I haven't met anyone to know anything for fact.

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 6:02:38 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored

How do you define "no limits"?


1.  No limits whatsoever.
2.  Having vastly few limits.
3.  Wanting to be more attractive to Dom's without a regard for honesty.

I've seen it often argued that on can be "no limits" as long as they'll do anything that's legal for the Dom.  Haha.  Yeah, right.

But, in any case, "no limits" is typically for "extreme" D/s or M/s.  I haven't seen many no-limits subs before.  I've seen probably about four times as many sub's who hate the idea of "no limits", denouncing it as inviable (and, to my belief, challenging to their dignity).  I've seen another, fairly similar population, falsely claiming to be "no limits".

Now, I've had about two no limits subs (both slaves).  I have no doubt that they'd kill without questioning me on the order (outside of possibly a confirmation to make sure that they heard me properly).  So, yeah, they exist; I haven't read the replies yet, but I'm assuming at least one person's probably claimed that they don't.  Still, even no-limits slaves are limited to the agility of the human mind.  If you order them to rapidly alter their frame of mind, well, it can confuse and overload them.  They are human.  (My point being, there are some limits- but not that those limits are things one ever really encounters without explicitly trying to hit them.)

I'll also anticipate the other thing that is mentioned is that subs need to maintain limits for their own safety.  It's probably the most common point against no-limits submission, and likely the strongest point.  However, this notion completely neglects the reality that not everyone is concerned for this safety, or isn't willing to take even a horrid risk for something that they truly want.

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 6:05:56 PM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Very true, tc.  I believe that is why erin stressed that what she was citing were prop's own posts.  We, at least, I, have absolutely no clue what goes on at their house.

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 6:09:28 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

I personally don't see her relationship with her "Master" as something that should be openly encouraged as being within what we normally call the "lifestyle" and I don't view it as a healthy relationship at all.




And where does that end?

Which extreme edge play gets attacked next?

And which one after that?

And the next one after that?



I would say that when you threaten to kill someone if they leave you, and they take your words at face value because you genuinely mean them, then it is no longer edgeplay but an abusive relationship.

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 6:28:32 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		greetings xoxi,

speaking not for daddysprop's situation (as it's not my place), but in general, i think the difference here is that in what most people would consider a classic "battered spouse" relationship, the woman did not consent to the reality of her being killed if she chose to leave. in my own case, i seriously doubt he would kill me if i tried to leave (that's beside the point i'm trying to make here), but in general, i think the line that is drawn there is the fact that there are people who have consented to that kind of situation (and i am not talking "not trying to leave implying consent," because i think that's straight up bullshit, i am talking outright consent and they are okay with things being that way). why do you still consider that to be the same as someone who did NOT know the relationship would be that way from the start and got into it consensually anyway?

respectfully,
annabelle.


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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 6:40:50 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		I honestly don't know enough about your situation to make any judgement on it.  I was speaking about daddysprop's relationship specifically and my reply to Bob was just one example of a line to draw between a lifestyle and an abusive relationship.

I think one of the biggest questions to ask is "would I be happier if he didn't do x" where 'x' is a certain action that may or may not be abusive.  For example, daddysprop says as her Master he has the right to break her bones.  Yet I would still ask her, would you prefer that he break your bones, or would you be happier if he didn't.  Would you prefer that he rape you anally and use your blood as lube, or would you prefer that he used actual lubrication to prevent the numerous bacterial diseases that can enter the bloodstream through a tear in the rectum?

If you genuinely prefer the "abusive" treatment, then I guess that's your own decision, provided you are in fact mentally competent to make it.  If however you would prefer that certain things didn't happen, and are going along with them because it is his "right" to do so, or because you would rather stay in the relationshp than leave, then I would say the acts are abusive and a parallel can be drawn to a woman being abused who stays in the relationship because she sees it as better than leaving.

And of course, if someone really will kill you for leaving, that is abusive.  I can't imagine an argument made that says anyone has the right to kill someone for breaking up with them.  Knowing this forum however, I'm sure someone will try.

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 6:42:57 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

There are always limits... there referred to as the law.


Those are called "deterrents", not limits. A law is something to make it unattractive to the dominant party to get caught doing something. And laws vary around the world. In some areas, anything goes. In others, anal or oral sex could be a crime. Norway pretty much allows anything short of the judicial definition of "grievous bodily harm" to be consented to, and even when that line is crossed, one can submit consent as mitigating.

quote:


I definitely don't see where No Limits would warrent a 13 page discussion


You neither?

You're probably also aware that there have been several; they tend to run this long.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 6:46:23 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		greetings xoxi,

my argument, of course, would be, as stated above, that if someone has knowingly consented to enter into a relationship where that is the consequence for leaving, i would not presume the relationship is abusive. i'm not saying all relationships like that are NOT abusive, but i would not presume that all of them ARE abusive (and when i say abusive i mean nonconsensually, classic abusive relationship abusive - there are, in my opinion, activities that can be done that are abusive in the sense of being truly harmful and also consensual, and i do not mean those in this particular discussion).

but if m/s is now about preference, why is it only the extreme activities that slaves SHOULD assert preference upon? i think that if we were talking about less extreme activities, supporting the idea of asserting one's preferences or deciding what one will or will not do as a slave based on one's preferences would be called topping from the bottom. i personally think that for some of us at least (and i am not saying it is better or worse or anything like that), the ability to assert our preference would completely remove the point of slavery. obviously i can tell him whether i like something because that's information for him, but if we start saying it's abusive if i don't prefer to do it, to me, there's no point. i have the ability to voice my preferences, but i gave up my power to assert my preferences and consider his not heeding my preferences abusive when i relinquished control of my body and my life to him.

in short, what i am trying to say is that there would be no point in saying i've relinquished control if i continue to retain control based on preference (or anything, for that matter). it would remove the "m/s" part of the "m/s" in my opinion...it would not be fulfilling for me (as a slave) at all. and i doubt i am alone in that.  

respectfully,
annabelle.

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 9/19/2007 6:51:47 PM >

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 6:47:29 PM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
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Status: offline 		I guess if you feel strongly about something or its important to you....its gonna get some air time....so this must be something some people feel strongly enough about to warrent some conversation...i think thats cool...it is a disscusion broard.

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 6:58:13 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		That's true actually, the relationship itself might not be abusive.  However if the 'slave' wants to leave, it will quickly turn that way.  The slave has the right to withdraw consent at any time, consenting to a relationship does not mean that you have no right to break up with that person or you will die.

Just so you get where I'm coming from, I'm not a 'no limits slave' at all.  I can not imagine letting a man break my bones because he wanted to.  However I suppose 'preference' wasn't the right word.  It's hard for me to explain what I mean because it's more than a simple "I like doggy style better than being on top so if you make me get on top it's abuse" - that's not what I meant at all.

It's the extreme activities though that can be considered abusive.  Obviously physical violence at any level can be considered abusive but putting someone at risk for serious bodily harm or death just seems to go way too far.  Especially if the other person is 'tolerating' it rather than asking for it.  I can't make a general proclamation of what is abuse vs. what isn't abuse because it's definitely a fluid line, although one that definitely needs to be drawn.

I guess everyone has their own idea of what makes them happy...I just can not condone breaking someone's bones or exposing them to the threat of STD's, illness spread through open wounds (especially anal wounds - that is seriously dangerous), and even death.  And it's not like she was asking him to break her bones - he did it and she put up with it because she was his slave.

I'm not trying to debate, or convince you of anything with this last question, I just honestly need to know - why is it okay to abuse someone, simply because they are a "slave"?

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 7:01:08 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		And furthermore, what does it say about the man who would do such things?

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 7:01:56 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi, BeingChewsie.

You and prop are saying slightly different things. Both of you are subject to forced compliance. Both of you are willing to try to comply with anything (if I have read your past posts correctly, e.g. in connection with the would-be kajira). The difference is that she appears to believe she can and will comply with any order that is physically possible for her to comply with. And some differences in use of force and handling of fallout.

I have insufficient grounds to assess whether she would succeed at complying, but I do know that it is possible to get to a point where physical ability to comply is the limiting factor, although that strays into the domain of deep reconditioning and possibly use of prescription medication, depending on too many factors to go into here.

As for most relationships, I couldn't comment. From what I've seen in the local scene and online, it would appear most are based in suspense-of-disbelief, with some using forced compliance, and a few being without a notion of revoking consent. Agreeing to not impose any limits on what a dom/master/owner can do seems to be divided into two groups: those who think their partner will never cross the unspoken/actual limits (usual meaning; uncommon, and unrealistic in the long term) and those who are aware that this may actually happen but choose to accept that anyway (rare; very rare when they know it will happen, like in prop's case).

I would say there's nothing to ridicule about any of those choices, but Rover disagrees.
I would say there's plenty to respect about each of those choices, but Rover disagrees.

I am in perfect agreement with you that long term successful relationships depend on an absolute mutual commitment to the relationship and one's attendant responsibilities. The common trend of abandoning ship at the first heavy rainfall is unproductive and rather unsatisfying. Personally, I would add a few other opinions about that attitude, but those opinions are best left at stating I have them, without elaborating.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 7:04:45 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		~Fast reply~ Ya know, a person can be so fucked up they do consent to abuse... does not change anything.. it is still abuse...and i do not give a rats ass what color you color it.... or how loudly a person screams 'but it's consentual'.....it does not make the Master any less insane or the 'slave' any less fucked up. 


< Message edited by angelic -- 9/19/2007 7:12:21 PM >

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 7:05:57 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

but if m/s is now about preference, why is it only the extreme activities that slaves SHOULD assert preference upon? i think that if we were talking about less extreme activities, supporting the idea of asserting one's preferences or deciding what one will or will not do as a slave based on one's preferences would be called topping from the bottom. i personally think that for some of us at least (and i am not saying it is better or worse or anything like that), the ability to assert our preference would completely remove the point of slavery. obviously i can tell him whether i like something because that's information for him, but if we start saying it's abusive if i don't prefer to do it, to me, there's no point. i have the ability to voice my preferences, but i gave up my power to assert my preferences and consider his not heeding my preferences abusive when i relinquished control of my body and my life to him.

respectfully,
annabelle.


Because "preference" and "boundaries" arent the same thing.

There is a huge difference between not exerting your preference for Coca Cola when your Owner tells you that he wants you to drink Dr, Pepper...

and...not enforcing a boundary and defending yourself when a Master decides to break three of your ribs and risk a punctured lung because he "felt" like it...

People not even acknowledging that there is a difference betweeb a crumb and a loaf of bread trully...blows....my....mind.

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 7:07:41 PM   
breatheasone


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quote:

People not even acknowledging that there is a difference betweeb a crumb and a loaf of bread trully...blows....my....mind.

Absol-fuckin-lutely......


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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 7:11:04 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit


Would you have entered into a relationship with Michael with no established boundaries if he was a man with no moral compass, cared nothing for your well being or health, had no respect for you, and no concern for your best interests and health?


Here's the thing, Mad one.  Been there, done that with Master A. I entered into a relationship with Michael because he had the ability to drop me to my knees with a look, just like Master A. It had nothing to do with his moral compass, character or anything else. I was gone from the get go well before I knew anything about his character. He had power and I couldn't help but want to bask in it. The fact that he happens to be a nice guy, a guy who fell in love with me, a guy who does have established limits and has the ability to keep me fenced in because I will obey him without question, just means that I got lucky this time. Pretty much dumb luck in a nutshell. He has the same sort of power over me that Master A had.. he's just a hell of a lot nicer and much more human. So, I guess the answer has to be yes, since I have a proven track record of doing that very thing.

As to the first question, if one is unable or unwilling to establish personal boundaries, then I'd have to answer yes to that question as well as they seem to amount to the same thing to me. You can't/won't/don't know how to establish personal boundaries, then it doesn't exist. If I can't, won't or don't know how to make a chocolate cake, then I don't have one sitting on the table ready to eat, either. Keep in mind, you're in a dialouge with someone who's been deemed either a mental case or a liar by the vast majority.. you should expect the unexpected.

quote:

If you can answer "Yes" to both of these questions, then I would actually agree with Bobgkin (who clearly didnt put much thought into the post) that it is "no limits" in the absolute sense.


Here's the other thing .. how things are in this moment are only how they are in this moment.. and in the next it could all change, hence my sig line and I believe that sig line with all my heart.  I love my life, I love my partner, I count my blessings, literally, daily and if what I am, what I do or what I'm willing to do means I'm a mental case, so be it. You know, us insane people don't know we're insane so that's why we're always smiling. Either that.. or we're plotting. Keeps it all rather interesting. 

Boo! Did I scare ya?

Celeste

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 7:12:48 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Hiya shoshi,

I get you, and I'll try to explain my view in a sec.

First off, expecting that you must condone anyone elses behavior is a quick way to find your opinions on deaf ears.  daddysprop isn't looking for support that I can tell; she's sharing elements of a relationship that she declares, fully on her own, makes her happy.  She's voiced her consent a thousand times here, if she's done it once.

A further comment, is that it isn't the principal of people doing what they want (or not) within the boundaries of a consensual relationship.  A big issue is saying "MKIAYKIN" (My kink is acceptable, your kink is not.)  The trouble is that what is acceptable to me would probably cause a few people's hair to turn white.  Who draws the line?

I do.  I have to be happy with myself.  I have to be happy with my slave. 
She does.  She has to be happy with herself, and she has to be happy with me.
And, if we live in any type of society, Big Brother.  (though usually we tend wish big brother wasn't or shouldn't be watching, so we break laws left and right in the lifestyle as part of our 'Risk Aware' activities; but that's another story.)

A woman in an abusive relationship, who knows the relationship is abusive, and fears to leave it, is still consenting to an abusive relationship.  It may be wrong, it may be abhorrent, it may make everyone around them angry, but unless they are a) breaking laws, and b) you're willing to invade their space to report them, there simply isn't anything in your power to do.

Not every person wants to be saved.  Not every person wants to be happy.  Those who consciously, actively choose to live an unhappy and painful life have every bit of a right to their pursuit to death, bondage, and the pursuit of misery. 

So, it's not 'ok' to abuse a slave.  You're welcome to offer assistance to a person you feel is being abused.  Be prepared to end up with the door slammed in your face about as often as a Jehova's Witness at 6am on Sunday, because you're still attempting to enforce your way of life on someone else who hasn't asked for.

Stephan


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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 7:14:36 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		greetings xoxi,

except there are many less physically damaging factors that could be considered "abuse" under your idea of preferences. why is it okay to assert preferences of not wanting to be physically damaged if you have given over complete control of your body and life to another person, but not "abusive" to be forced into bisexuality, for example, which would not be physically damaging? i just don't see how "physically damaging" becomes where "control" is suddenly the whim of the slave. who defines what is truly harmful and physically damaging? what about mental damage? i think that if a case for asserting preferences is to be made, then control breaks down regardless of whether the preference has to do with something "extreme" or something run of the mill. there is still no point, to me, in giving your life and body over to another person if you are going to decide you want to take control back when he does something you don't like or enjoy. i still don't get it. i understand that it would work for you because you have limits in your relationships, but i do not understand how it would function at all or be applicable in a relationship without limits.

quote:

I just honestly need to know - why is it okay to abuse someone, simply because they are a "slave"?


it is okay to consensually abuse someone who has chosen to receive that abuse regardless of whether or not they personally prefer to receive it. i prefer to use the term "slave" because most people in that consensual position identify as such, including myself, and it helps differentiate from, say, battered spouses who do not consent to such a situation.

greetings madrabbit,

as i think someone else might have already mentioned, some people are unwilling to establish boundaries and defend themselves. if i felt like i needed to defend myself from him, i would not have consented to the relationship in the first place, because for me that would indicate a lack of trust in him. i am not giving over ownership of myself to someone i do not trust completely or someone i need to have boundaries with or defend myself from.

respectfully,
annabelle.

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 9/19/2007 7:16:26 PM >

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i have the kind of beauty that moves...

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/19/2007 7:20:39 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		But they ARE breaking laws.  Domestic violence laws.  Assault laws.  Battery laws.  Unlawful restraint laws.  I'm not going to call the cops on them because if she has the internet she has a phone too.  That's on her.  But I'm certainly not going to say "your 'kink' of getting your arm broken, picking up herpes from a man you were whored out to and a staph infection from bloody anal sex is OK" because for fuck's sake, it's not.

A Master has the right to punish his slave.  He has the right to hurt her even.  But he does not have the right to injure, maim, disfigure, disable, or kill her.  Yes that is illegal and yes that is abusive.  Even if it's consentual abuse.

You say everyone has the right to pursue death, misery, and a life of bondage...you're saying they have the right to be abused.  I'm not saying they don't have the *right* to be abused, I'm just saying they are being abused.

And only a real piece of shit would injure and harm the person he is legally obligated through guardianship to protect.  Judgemental? You bet.  Doesn't make it any less true.

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