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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:15:49 AM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

I thought I got out of this debate gracefully last night - guess I was wrong

I'm just going to clarify a few things here before I move to email - I agree that it's a better venue.

1. Killing someone for leaving you can't be compared to caning them for not doing the dishes. Breaking their nose and knocking them down a flight of stairs, maybe. But also, and this is the important point, by leaving someone you withdraw consent. End of relationship - end of consent. Period. Anything done after that is nonconsensual.

2. I meant "weaker" in the sense of physically weaker, as a fact and no insult intended. I don't think if you threw the two of them in a ring he would come out with more broken bones. Unless she brought a bat. But I've seen a pic of her and unless her boyfriend is five foot two and 100 lbs....he's got a bit of advantage.

3. My argument is not "she has no right to choose her lifestyle" and has never been. THAT is why I said 'if she has a computer she has a phone' - it's her choice whether to make that call. And I'm also NOT trying to proclaim a blanket decision over every single BDSM relationship that has ever or will ever exist. I am talking about one relationship between two individuals and the dynamic specifically expressed in THAT relationship. In other words "criticizing someone personally" - though it's not prop I'm criticizing. Just her boyfriend. I don't see anyone defending the man I'm criticizing - just turning it into an all-or-nothing argument on the theoretical dynamics of power exchange.

4. I never once said he should leave her. I said he should stop breaking her goddamn bones and exposing her to the threat of serious illness, disfigurement, and death. FFS is it SO hard to stop putting the person you love in mortal danger wtihout leaving them? Or did he do this with all his previous girlfriends?

Edited to add - I agree 100% that if she shows up in the hospital with broken bones she very well could be hospitalized again. Yet another reason why he should STOP DOING IT if he gives a SHIT about keeping her. Or is he just going to have her heal her bones naturally in a bedroom somewhere, with all the risks that involves?

< Message edited by xoxi -- 9/20/2007 5:26:52 AM >

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 421

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:21:16 AM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

~~ fast reply to those who have allowed themselves to become the 'savers' of the world~~

Ya'll ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Some people have relationships that are extreme, just because you do not agree with them does not mean that they are mentally impaired, as most of you have implied here. Nor does it mean that they need 'help' or saving; it simply means that their relationship differs from yours.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 422

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:21:59 AM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Because as we all know consent is purely a black and white simple thing and things like codependence, emotional blackmail, stockholm syndrome, battered persons syndrome, manipulation, fear of being abandoned NEVER ever cloud the issue into the realm of the gray....

There's a future for you amongst the religious zealots and other self-righteous bigots who say all of that and more about anyone involved in BDSM, Rabbit.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 423

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:29:25 AM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

IrishMist I did not say that the fact that she consents to extreme physical violence makes her mentally impaired. Neither did anyone else.

What was said was that she was declared mentally incompetent after having been hospitalized multiple times and that her partner is her legal guardian, appointed by the state because she is deemed unable to care for herself.

That in my mind makes the situation far more individualistic, and so a 'judgement' of the one particular situation does not reflect a judgement of all activities.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 424

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:35:09 AM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: submittous

We are all entitled to our opinions, but also responsible for the ramifications of voicing them... my conern in this case and thread is the demonization of a pretty common and actually not very extreme concept in M/s relationships on a forum like this one where new folks will take that demonizing as fact and not consider what might be the right kind of relationship for themselves at some time in the future. They might even be potential slaves for us.

I think that is the point of the nay-sayers, to chase off those whom you might find to be of interest.

I recommend a page out of my own wisdom on this: there isn't anything anyone can say to stop those who will pursue this lifestyle. Those who want this will pursue it anyway. Those who don't won't be persuaded to want it.

Discussions like this merely alert the general audience as to whom to approach regarding the lifestyle they wish to follow. No one gets converted (and if they do, then either they were not very sure of themselves, or they will eventually re-convert when they realize they are miserable trying to live the life someone else told them to live).

You, and Annabelle, and Celeste, and Aswad have shown more tolerance for the differences of others, been more articulate and (far) less raving than the nay-sayers.

So don't be discouraged.

< Message edited by Bobkgin -- 9/20/2007 6:21:43 AM >

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to submittous)

Post #: 425

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:40:11 AM

nephandi

Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

Hi

quote:

If she is now competent why does she need a legal guardian?
This may of been brought up already I may of missed it in the many pages this subject has taken on.
rollin

i do not know this person we are talking about well, so i can not say what her situation is. There are however many reasons why a person would have a legal guardian. Also in most places, if the one that have been declared incompetent do not do the work to be declared competent again the status do not change, even when the person is well enough to make his or her own choices again.

i also know it is not that unusual that pepole that are completely competent are declared incompetent and given a legal guardian even when they are fully capable of running their own live. Psycriatic health care can be power hungry bastards sometime and they often treat pepole wrong.

i wish you well.

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

(in reply to rollinonward05)

Post #: 426

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:54:47 AM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

Not only do i completely agree with your statement, IrishMist, i would also add that what's normal for someone else isn't necessarily normal for me and vice verse. And, neither one is any more or less valid, as a chosen way of life, than the other.

Just because we can't imagine living the way someone else does and we can't imagine how anyone (in their 'right mind') could live that way, doesn't necessarily mean that they are sick, crazy, incompetent, a victim or, unable to decide how they want to live.

We all have different lives, different needs, different perspectives and our own unique version of "normal" and, we have no right trying to impose our standards of conduct and belief systems onto others or expect them to live by what we believe is right.

A lot of people can't imagine living on the streets and being homeless and when they see someone who is, they feel sorry for them. But, why? Most homeless adults will tell you that they choose to live that way. That is their 'normal' and, even though there are some hardships that they have to deal with, they see people who have to make a monthly mortgage payment and pay taxes and mow their lawn and call the plumber, etc., etc., as having far worse hardships than they do and they "can't imagine" living that way.

If the person isn't complaining about their life, why should we feel bad about it? To each their own.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David
_________________________________________________________
"Are we there, yet? Not quite. We each evolve at our own pace."

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

~~ fast reply to those who have allowed themselves to become the 'savers' of the world~~

Ya'll ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Some people have relationships that are extreme, just because you do not agree with them does not mean that they are mentally impaired, as most of you have implied here. Nor does it mean that they need 'help' or saving; it simply means that their relationship differs from yours.

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 427

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:06:02 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

~~ fast reply to those who have allowed themselves to become the 'savers' of the world~~

Ya'll ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Some people have relationships that are extreme, just because you do not agree with them does not mean that they are mentally impaired, as most of you have implied here. Nor does it mean that they need 'help' or saving; it simply means that their relationship differs from yours.

I don't have anything else to add - just reposting to agree.

Peace
the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 428

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:11:04 AM

UR2Badored

Posts: 506
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline

I dont know enough about the situation to make a statement yay or nay. This is all news to me......something to think about and yes, makes me concern. Most, not all, are stating that this is a question of legal consent and not speaking of extremes. I hate that this thread has become another battering rod for an individual, but do understand the relevance of what some are expressing.

< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 9/20/2007 6:32:30 AM >

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A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way
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(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 429

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:18:02 AM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

IrishMist I did not say that the fact that she consents to extreme physical violence makes her mentally impaired. Neither did anyone else.

What was said was that she was declared mentally incompetent after having been hospitalized multiple times and that her partner is her legal guardian, appointed by the state because she is deemed unable to care for herself.

That in my mind makes the situation far more individualistic, and so a 'judgement' of the one particular situation does not reflect a judgement of all activities.

Interesting that you give credence to the process that declared her incompetent, while denying credence to the process that led him to be her guardian.

How do you suppose the state decided to make a man legal guardian for a woman, in the absence of marriage and family ties?

How do you propose to judge a man based on the words of a woman whom you've accepted as "mentally incompetent"?

Do you often give credence to someone you think is "mentally incompetent"?

And as you -are- giving credence to Props' words, doesn't that demonstrate you don't believe her to be "mentally incompetent", as you rely on her words to form your judgment?

Seems to me a lot of fuzzy thinking is going into the "Nay" side.

What if she was declared incompetent for delusional thinking? What if what she has written is the result of delusional thinking? What becomes of your judgment of Daddy if everything Prop has written was the result of delusions?

What if she was declared incompetent for simply admitting to being involved in BDSM by some over-zealous shrink who doesn't like bdsm?

I'm not saying either is the case. I am saying no one rushing to judge Daddy has ruled out these possibilities when they quote someone they call "mentally incompetent".

This whole argument is taking on the appearance of a vendetta against Props. None of the nay-sayers have suggested that they are trying to save Props from an abusive situation. They ignore the situation she was in when hospitalized, and her feelings towards it. They white-wash the process for declaring someone unfit, yet condemn the process that appoints a guardian, with no facts to support them at either turn.

No one has said what is to become of Props if they could get Daddy jailed. Rather curious when the rationale would seem to be compassion for Props being "abused". But then no one is claiming to feel compassion for Props.

As I said: vendetta. Props institutionalized (and miserable) and Daddy in jail (and miserable).

For whom is this a "win/win" situation?

< Message edited by Bobkgin -- 9/20/2007 6:20:30 AM >

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 430

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:22:03 AM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

FR:

nope, nuh uh, BUZZ...the question is not (as UR2 pointed out) how extreme anyone wants to be...the point is, that legally, at this point in time, prop can NOT consent to any kind of adult interaction...with anyone, including her Daddy...and with relative ease and little to no cost, she could be declared competent with the help of a free lawyer through legal aide (i have been through having an adult declared incompetent, and though i don't know specifics, it is not impossible to have it reversed when it was decided based on mental health and not retardation)...

edited to add: please don't pick this apart....while i am identifying a problem, i am also trying to provide a solution...

< Message edited by chellekitty -- 9/20/2007 6:24:12 AM >

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to UR2Badored)

Post #: 431

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:30:06 AM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

What do you mean I'm denying credence to the process that made him her guardian? I'm simply saying that if the state KNEW how he was treating his ward, they just might have a problem with it.

Also I don't define mentally incompetent as "seeing pink fucking elephants and telling people about it" - a mentally incompetent person could very well be able to relay objective facts such as "he broke my bones" or "I was in a psychiatric hospital" - the question of competency comes in when it's non-objective, such as being able to make sound judgement, and productive decisions.

If everything she wrote was a delusion then "Daddy" might not even exist, and so I don't think a nonexistant person would have ap roblem with me judging him. I am taking the words at face value and proclaiming judgement on them as though they are factual. If any or all of it is not factual, the judgement does not stand, as it was made with the assumptions that everything said was true. Not only is this theoretical, but irrelevant as well - I see no point in derailing conversations to the point of "well you might be lying, for all I know you're not even a woman."

I was hospitalized for attempting suicide. All I know is, trying to take my life multiple times, cutting myself, having two eating disorders (anorexia and bulimia) as well as a slew of drug problems did not lead my 19 year old self to be declared mentally incompetent. In fact it was never even considered, and it's not a matter of one shrink saying "blam you're incompetent" - there are hearings involved, it's a serious fucking issue. I will take your 'what ifs' more seriously when they become remotely plausible.

I have no vendetta against this girl. I'm not trying to get anyone arrested. I'm not even saying he should stop being her guardian.

I'm saying he should stop exposing his guardian to the threat of serious injury, illness, and death. Seriously. Just fucking quit it. You don't have to break a bitch's bones to get her to listen and if you do, then your skills as a Dominant are sorely lacking.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 432

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:31:34 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

Consent is a non issue. And you know, I am too appalled by most of the anti-posts here to even expound on my thoughts to explain why consent is irrelvant (it only falls on deaf ears with the moral brigade anyway) and not as black and white as everyone seems to believe. I have even seen people spew that what they are doing breaks the law - well whoppdee-way ... whadda yaknow? BDSM breaking the law? .Whoodathunkit.

Really, if I hear someone spout on about consent and what it 'really' means again - I think I might just go

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 433

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:33:59 AM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

Really? Not judgmental? Then how would you categorize this statement, from post http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1287637? It sounds very judgmental, to me, and doesn't seem to mention anything about the law.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic
~Fast reply~ Ya know, a person can be so fucked up they do consent to abuse... does not change anything.. it is still abuse...and i do not give a rats ass what color you color it.... or how loudly a person screams 'but it's consentual'.....it does not make the Master any less insane or the 'slave' any less fucked up.

And, how about this statement, from post http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1287682?

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
And only a real piece of shit would injure and harm the person he is legally obligated through guardianship to protect. Judgemental? You bet. Doesn't make it any less true.

slave joyOwned property of Master David__________________________________________
"We all evolve at our own pace."

quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored

edited because I missed part of the previous comments:
I dont know enough about the situation to make a statement yay or nay. This is all news to me......something to think about and yes, makes me concern. Most, not all, are stating that this is a question of legal consent and not speaking extremes. I hate that this thread has become another battering rod for an individual, but do understand the relevance of what some are expressing.

(in reply to UR2Badored)

Post #: 434

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:35:39 AM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Consent is a non issue. And you know, I am too appalled by most of the anti-posts here to even expound on my thoughts to explain why consent is irrelvant (it only falls on deaf ears with the moral brigade anyway) and not as black and white as everyone seems to believe. I have even seen people spew that what they are doing breaks the law - well whoppdee-way ... whadda yaknow? BDSM breaking the law? .Whoodathunkit.

Really, if I hear someone spout on about consent and what it 'really' means again - I think I might just go

the.dark.

There is a lot I would like to say but my thoughts are scattered and a bit emotional. Some of the replies on here have literally made me nauseaus. Gee it's so nice to see how some see an extreme relationship.
Not.
Illegal??
Nearly all of what WE (and you) do falls into that. Jeez I really don't know what to say except I feel disgusted.

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 435

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:36:25 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I have no vendetta against this girl. I'm not trying to get anyone arrested. I'm not even saying he should stop being her guardian.

I'm saying he should stop exposing his guardian to the threat of serious injury, illness, and death. Seriously. Just fucking quit it.

Then you better include and preach that to the entire SM population and I predict at least half the Ds section (although my percentages are probably low) in that statement as well.

Peace
the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 436

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:37:46 AM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

Yes, I'm one of those people who believes the capacity to make sound judgement is one of the signs of an intelligent and productive human being.

Oh snap. There's another judgement, RIGHT THERE!

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 437

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:40:03 AM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I have no vendetta against this girl. I'm not trying to get anyone arrested. I'm not even saying he should stop being her guardian.

I'm saying he should stop exposing his guardian to the threat of serious injury, illness, and death. Seriously. Just fucking quit it.

Then you better include and preach that to the entire SM population and I predict at least half the Ds section (although my percentages are probably low) in that statement as well.

Peace
the.dark.

I'm sorry, what does half the SM population have to do with this specific case?

Are you implying that half of the SM population is in the EXACT SAME situation, for the EXACT SAME reasons?

If not, I will continue to judge each individual situation on its individual merits. I see no point in making blanket judgements.

If I shoot a sick horse, are you going to come at me and say "well why don't you just go shoot ALL the horses then? After all they're horses right?"

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 438

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:41:29 AM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Actually, daddysprop has never said that she is now competent. She has never said that she has even ever been re-evaluated. daddysprop is a very eloquent and intelligent poster and many people see that as an indicator of her competence. However, eloquence and intelligence have nothing whatsoever to do with psychiatric competency.

quote:

daddysprop247
however in my case i was declared mentally incompetent by the state, due to an involuntary in-patient psych commitment....very long, boring, infuriating story there that i won't get into on the board. the sole bright spot in the whole situation was that it presented my Master with an opportunity to do something he'd wanted to do since the very beginning...have some sort of legal reinforcement of his ownership over me, even to the limited degree available under US law. He realized that my being declared mentally incompetent opened the door for him to be able to become my legal guardian and for me to be declared his ward for life. so that is what he did. actually i was only released from the looney bin under the condition that it was under his care (as he is considered a mentally and emotionally stable model citizen, *smirk*), and with the understanding that he was soon to be my legal guardian. so basically you could say he took advantage of an otherwise horrible situation, and i'm grateful for that everyday.

OMG....that gave me chills...Holy Smokes!

"actually i was only released from the looney bin under the condition that it was under his care (as he is considered a mentally and emotionally stable model citizen, *smirk*)"

i am no expert on these matters but i highly doubt this is how it works in the mental health field. If someone is a danger to themselves or others they get institutionalized period. There is no giving that person to a layman and they wash their hands of the mentally ill person that is utter nonsense. At most a person would need a power of attorny so that someone could attend to the mentally incimpetant persons estate, so they would not be allowed to make certain decision for themselves.

Can you imagine the lawsuits and chaos it would be if all mentally ill people who needed help were released to average people with no experience in caring for their mental health - i mean wow th epossibilities for taking advantage of them. The lawsuits that would follow from the stream of abused or dead bodies. Mental health organizations don't leave doors like that open OMH is very very stringent on how the mentally ill get treated and about protecting their rights. This whole story smacks of fantasy to me. i use my common sense to believe or not believe what i will.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to breatheasone)

Post #: 439

RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:43:22 AM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored

Okay just to clarify...........no one is faulting anyone for extremes but questioning legal consent (This is not a judgement call but possibly a legal issue).

You cannot give legal consent for illegal activity.

Cages/Bondage: forcible confinement.
Whips and canes: assault and battery
Piercings: assault with a weapon
Public Play: exposure, contributing to the deliquency of minors (those who might witness the behaviour), lewd and lacivious behaviour
Masochism: self-destructive behaviour
Sadism: motive for committing the crimes.

LTR BDSM relationships: spousal abuse

It's all in how you see it, and the courts view it from the Vanilla perspective.

quote:

I dont know enough about the situation to make a statement yay or nay. This is all news to me......something to think about and yes, makes me concern. I hate that this thread has become another battering rod for an individual, but do understand the relevance of what some are expressing.

People are white-washing one process while vandalizing another so as to achieve the basis for believing what they wanted to believe all along.

They ignore the logical inconsistencies of their own arguments:
- how do you trust the word of someone you deem "mentally incompetent"?
- how do you choose to believe some words (the descriptions of what Daddy does and the claims of being declared incompetent) while ignoring other words (Props frequent decalrations that her current situation is best for her)?
- how do you find fault with one process and validate the results of another process when you don't know the details of either?
- how do you present yourself as having compassion for the victim, yet demonstrate no compassion for Props and no concern for what happens to her if Daddy were jailed (as so many fervently wish)?

These are fundamental inconsistencies that go to the core of their motive for arguing as they do: they don't like Props and they attack her and Daddy using whatever argument they can assemble, logic be damned.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to UR2Badored)

Post #: 440

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