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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:44:03 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
 
There is a lot I would like to say but my thoughts are scattered and a bit emotional. Some of the replies on here have literally made me nauseaus. Gee it's so nice to see how some see an extreme relationship.
Not.
Illegal??
Nearly all of what WE (and you) do falls into that. Jeez I really don't know what to say except I feel disgusted.


Scattered, yup - emotional, yup - me too cammile - and I am with you 100% - not emotional in an upset way, but in an angry way.  So much for tollerant BDSM hey.
 
Peace
the.dark.


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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:44:50 AM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		Well when she ends up dead because she was just being an obedient "extreme slave" you all will just say..."Well at least she died by consent!!"

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:52:04 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		Bob.  Seriously.  Listen.  I am answering your questions here buddy.


quote:

They ignore the logical inconsistencies of their own arguments:
- how do you trust the word of someone you deem "mentally incompetent"?

I assume that the objective facts she relays are correct.  If in fact they are not, my judgement does not stand.  Once again, any argument can be defeated by simply saying "well none of what you say might have actually happened" - in fact I believe that's the tactic used by Holocaust deniers.

quote:


- how do you choose to believe some words (the descriptions of what Daddy does and the claims of being declared incompetent) while ignoring other words (Props frequent decalrations that her current situation is best for her)?

Because I am drawing a distinction between objective facts (this action happened) and subjective judgments (this action is a good thing).
quote:


- how do you find fault with one process and validate the results of another process when you don't know the details of either?

I'm not finding fault with the process.  I am saying that the Daddy in question is behaving in a manner that, if the state were aware of it, would make him an unfit guardian.  That has nothing to do with the process itself aside from the fact that I assume they lied to the people involved about what went on in the house.  The fact that they were less than forthcoming about the situation doesn't reflect on the process itself.
quote:


- how do you present yourself as having compassion for the victim, yet demonstrate no compassion for Props and no concern for what happens to her if Daddy were jailed (as so many fervently wish)?

I have compassion for the victim in that I will say once again her Daddy should fucking knock it off.  I alreay said it's up to her whether she wants him to go to jail.  I'm not trying to get him arrested.  I'm just saying dude stop injuring your fucking legal ward.
quote:


These are fundamental inconsistencies that go to the core of their motive for arguing as they do: they don't like Props and they attack her and Daddy using whatever argument they can assemble, logic be damned.


You're right.  The reason I have a problem with a man exposing his woman to broken bones, AIDS, staph infections and death is simply because I don't like the girl.  If you honestly believe the reason I have a problem with this is because I don't *like* her, please say so now and save me a LOT of time that would be wasted with any further discussion.

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Profile   Post #: 443
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:56:01 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Hi

quote:

I was hospitalized for attempting suicide.  All I know is, trying to take my life multiple times, cutting myself, having two eating disorders (anorexia and bulimia) as well as a slew of drug problems did not lead my 19 year old self to be declared mentally incompetent.  In fact it was never even considered, and it's not a matter of one shrink saying "blam you're incompetent" - there are hearings involved, it's a serious fucking issue.  I will take your 'what ifs' more seriously when they become remotely plausible.


And i have been dragged from my home, in my bath robe in the middle of the night by three police men becouse one doctor visiting my mother took the fact that when i had a bad period, i have Aspergers syndrome, i could not stand be in the room whit a stranger and when to my room when he was visiting a a sign that i was going to kill myself! At the hospital i was treated as shit until a doctor finally spoke to me for five minutes and said no she is not sick let her go, there is nothing wrong whit her. The point of this little sunshine story is that while some psychiatrist are nice, competent pepole, some are abusive idiots that get of on the power they have. So while the pepole that treated you may not have tried to declare you incompetent, that do not mean that others may not have had someone declared incompetent for far, far less.

i wih you well.




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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:56:21 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I have no vendetta against this girl.  I'm not trying to get anyone arrested.  I'm not even saying he should stop being her guardian.

I'm saying he should stop exposing his guardian to the threat of serious injury, illness, and death.  Seriously.  Just fucking quit it. 



Then you better include and preach that to the entire SM population and I predict at least half the Ds section (although my percentages are probably low) in that statement as well.
 
Peace
the.dark.


I'm sorry, what does half the SM population have to do with this specific case?

Are you implying that half of the SM population is in the EXACT SAME situation, for the EXACT SAME reasons?

If not, I will continue to judge each individual situation on its individual merits.  I see no point in making blanket judgements.

If I shoot a sick horse, are you going to come at me and say "well why don't you just go shoot ALL the horses then?  After all they're horses right?"



Right now you are crossing and EXTREMELY fine line and it sucks.  You are attacking and belittling anothers choice of life and that is against TOS.
 
You are attacking one individual person and then saying that it doesn't work across the board?  One rule for one - one rule for another? It DOESNT work like that.  If it did then BDSM practioners wouldn't have to feel they need to hide their faces or their chosen orientation from the general populace.
 
People get scarred, broken bones and put their lives in danger all the time - BDSM or not BDSM.  Using that as a statement only to announce your distain to one individual couple and not expect it to carry across the board - and include yourself - reeks of superiority.  Prop isn't less of a person than you... consensual non consent occurs all the time.  CONSENT doesn;t really exist - it is a figment of fantasy to help justify how someone wants to live.  Prop doesn't do that - she is well aware that consent is a non issue.  If more BDSM practioners understood the issue of consent like prop does then we would be much further down the BDSM evolutionary path than we are now because the path wouldn't be blocked by moralistic and ethical, onlycertainwaysareright, saviours that think they know what is right for other people.
 
I am finished discussing this.  It's not a discussion, it's a witch hunt.

 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 9/20/2007 7:01:40 AM >

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 6:59:32 AM   
UR2Badored


Posts: 506
Joined: 2/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

Really?  Not judgmental?  Then how would you categorize this statement, from post
quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored

edited because I missed part of the previous comments:
I dont know enough about the situation to make a statement yay or nay.  This is all news to me......something to think about and yes, makes me concern. Most, not all, are stating that this is a question of legal consent and not speaking extremes.  I hate that this thread has become another battering rod for an individual, but do understand the relevance of what some are expressing. 



Please elaborate on how my statements are being judgemental. You dont think legal consent is an issue and though you are not alone in your thoughts apparently, I think many folks are concerned with legal consent and harm being done to an individaul in that sense. I dont really know enough about the individual being discussed.  Take that out of the discussion and just talk about  the issue of legal consent. I think we should be tolerant of extremes. IT is silly for anyone to be posting on an alternate lifestyle board and profess that extremes should not be tolerated.   This is not the case.....if you are not worried about legal consent.....I shudder and cannot legally imply on here what else you might consider acceptable.


< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 9/20/2007 7:18:01 AM >

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 7:00:51 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

FR:

nope, nuh uh, BUZZ...the question is not (as UR2 pointed out) how extreme anyone wants to be...the point is, that legally, at this point in time, prop can NOT consent to any kind of adult interaction...with anyone, including her Daddy...and with relative ease and little to no cost, she could be declared competent with the help of a free lawyer through legal aide (i have been through having an adult declared incompetent, and though i don't know specifics, it is not impossible to have it reversed when it was decided based on mental health and not retardation)...

edited to add:  please don't pick this apart....while i am identifying a problem, i am also trying to provide a solution...



And if they like the dynamic as it is, despite the fact Props would be declared sane if she chose to pursue that, why should they?

Form over substance? "It's not how you feel its how you look"?

The understanding they have between them is of less value than what others think of them?

Seems to me these questions go to the core of wiitwd and why.

Some seem to think that if the majority of bdsmers say something is "bad", it is bad, while ignoring the fact that a much larger majority of Vanillas say everything about BDSM is "bad".

Double-standards abound: it is not okay for Vanillas to stigmatize BDSM, but it is okay if a group of like-minded kinksters stigmatize a smaller group of kinksters.

If you are going to give credence to the belief that a larger group can correctly judge a smaller group, then you've given credence to all the Vanillas who say BDSM is wrong, that doms and master should be locked up and subs/slaves should be institutionalized for their own protection.

That's why I say this isn't about kink, it's about a group of people who don't like Props and are using this as an issue with which to beat her.

Why else 'believe' everything she says about her relationship with Daddy -except- the part about how right this is for her?

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 7:06:43 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		Nephandi,
Thank you :)  My last experience like that was when I was 19 (I'm 24 now) and I have to say it was quite a struggle to get on my feet.  I do agree that others could be declared incompetent for less, but I can also honestly look back and say that when I was 19 I was probably pretty mentally incompetent.  I certainly couldn't care for myself.  I was lucky they didn't declare me incompetent simply because I had family who was paying my bills and everything...but if I had been on my own I would have been screwed.

the.dark,

Actually yes, I do think one rule for some, another rule for another because everyone is an individual and should be judged as such.  It's the reason executioners aren't tried for murder, cops and soldiers in Canada can carry guns but civilians can't, and mentally incompetent people are provided a guardian who has power of attorney to assist them in entering legal contracts.

I'm not even judging a specific action here such as "breaking someone's bones" - I am judging the action IN the context it is presented, and the action alone when divorced from that context can take on an entirely different meaning.

If you want to make blanket judgements on everyone and say "this is right, this is wrong, no ifs ands or buts" that's your choice.  I personally see far more variety in the world to be able to do that.

I want to be perfectly clear I'm not belittling prop's way of life.  I am criticizing the actions her Daddy has taken toward his legal ward.  If that is against the TOS, I apologize in advance, but as I've not yet been asked to end this discussion by a moderator I will feel free to continue.  If and when a moderator tells me I have crossed the line I will apologize and take it to email.

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 7:09:05 AM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		Since coming to this site and reading and participating in the discussions, i have seen very little tolerance expressed, concerning how others choose to live or how others choose to define themself and their own way of life.  So much for free-thinking, "do your own thing", and free choice, within this group.  Some people seem to think that WIITWD actually means that We All Do The Same Thing.
 
That's why i have never been a follower of WIITWD.  i prefer WIITiD, as in, What It Is That i Do.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David
________________________________________
"We all evolve at our own pace."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
 
There is a lot I would like to say but my thoughts are scattered and a bit emotional. Some of the replies on here have literally made me nauseaus. Gee it's so nice to see how some see an extreme relationship.
Not.
Illegal??
Nearly all of what WE (and you) do falls into that. Jeez I really don't know what to say except I feel disgusted.


Scattered, yup - emotional, yup - me too cammile - and I am with you 100% - not emotional in an upset way, but in an angry way.  So much for tollerant BDSM hey.
 
Peace
the.dark.


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Profile   Post #: 449
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 7:14:58 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		as i have expressed before: i'm intolerant and judgemental   i'm intolerant and judgemental   i'm intolerant and judgemental 



its not some cape or crown to wear to be tolerant and nonjudgemental...we all do it, get over yourself, by calling me intolerant and judgemental...guess what you are being intolerant and judgemental!!!!!!!!!!!! so...with that...

i'm taking my toys and going elsewhere

the intolerant and judgmental one

< Message edited by chellekitty -- 9/20/2007 7:25:10 AM >

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 7:17:05 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Because as we all know consent is purely a black and white simple thing and things like codependence, emotional blackmail, stockholm syndrome, battered persons syndrome, manipulation, fear of being abandoned NEVER ever cloud the issue into the realm of the gray....



There's a future for you amongst the religious zealots and other self-righteous bigots who say all of that and more about anyone involved in BDSM, Rabbit.



Bob, are you high?

As usual you have competely missed the point I was making and taken it completely out into left field up on your soapbox.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 9/20/2007 7:18:26 AM >

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 7:17:46 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		LOL

I'm with you on that one.  How dare you all judge me for judging her? You judgemental fucks.



Sincerely, Skippy the Panda

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 7:30:37 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

What do you mean I'm denying credence to the process that made him her guardian?  I'm simply saying that if the state KNEW how he was treating his ward, they just might have a problem with it.



Yes, if the Vanilla state were to judge any bdsm relationship that comes to it under the guise of competency, they would have a problem with it.

quote:


Also I don't define mentally incompetent as "seeing pink fucking elephants and telling people about it" - a mentally incompetent person could very well be able to relay objective facts such as "he broke my bones" or "I was in a psychiatric hospital" - the question of competency comes in when it's non-objective, such as being able to make sound judgement, and productive decisions.


So someone who sees "pink fucking elephants" and tells people about it is capable of making "sound judgment and productive decisions"?

quote:


If everything she wrote was a delusion then "Daddy" might not even exist, and so I don't think a nonexistant person would have ap roblem with me judging him.  I am taking the words at face value and proclaiming judgement on them as though they are factual.  If any or all of it is not factual, the judgement does not stand, as it was made with the assumptions that everything said was true. 


Including the part where she says this is right for her, better than anything she's known, etc?

Including the fact that, aside from the extremity of her relationship, nothing she says gives the slightest hint of mental incompetency: she is aware of her decisions and aware of the consequences for those decisions and has accepted those consequences? She is articulate? She has dealt with this response before, yet still comes out here and talks about it? She has access to others? She is not isolated from contact or differing points of view?

Are you not judging her solely because you believe her to be in the situation she's described and she's not asking for help?

quote:


Not only is this theoretical, but irrelevant as well - I see no point in derailing conversations to the point of "well you might be lying, for all I know you're not even a woman."


That's not my point.

You are judging her for not doing what you would do.

quote:


I was hospitalized for attempting suicide.  All I know is, trying to take my life multiple times, cutting myself, having two eating disorders (anorexia and bulimia) as well as a slew of drug problems did not lead my 19 year old self to be declared mentally incompetent.  In fact it was never even considered, and it's not a matter of one shrink saying "blam you're incompetent" - there are hearings involved, it's a serious fucking issue.  I will take your 'what ifs' more seriously when they become remotely plausible.


It all depends upon the circumstances: who is pushing for the declaration, who will be guardian, what factors were involved, how much cooperation do you give the process or do you fight it, how good is your lawyer.

quote:


I have no vendetta against this girl.  I'm not trying to get anyone arrested.  I'm not even saying he should stop being her guardian.

I'm saying he should stop exposing his guardian to the threat of serious injury, illness, and death.  Seriously.  Just fucking quit it.  You don't have to break a bitch's bones to get her to listen and if you do, then your skills as a Dominant are sorely lacking.


I do none of those things. Nor am I trying to defend such activities.

What I am defending is the right of each of us to live our lives as we believe our lives should be lived.

Props says this life is right for her. Those are the words you do not believe, but I do.

Is she saying everyone should live her way? No.

So why should you, or anyone else, get more worked up over how she lives her life than she does?

Because she's not making the choices you want her to make?

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 7:34:54 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Yes, I'm one of those people who believes the capacity to make sound judgement is one of the signs of an intelligent and productive human being.

Oh snap.  There's another judgement, RIGHT THERE!



And who decides what is "sound judgment"?

You do.

So because Props doesn't do what -you- would do, she is not an "intelligent and productive human being"?


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

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Profile   Post #: 454
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 7:41:50 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Well when she ends up dead because she was just being an obedient "extreme slave" you all will just say..."Well at least she died by consent!!"


We all die.

If this is how she wishes to go, why oppose it?

Or are you telling us her life is worth more to you than her?

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 7:42:18 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Nephandi,
Thank you :)  My last experience like that was when I was 19 (I'm 24 now) and I have to say it was quite a struggle to get on my feet.  I do agree that others could be declared incompetent for less, but I can also honestly look back and say that when I was 19 I was probably pretty mentally incompetent.  I certainly couldn't care for myself.  I was lucky they didn't declare me incompetent simply because I had family who was paying my bills and everything...but if I had been on my own I would have been screwed.

the.dark,

Actually yes, I do think one rule for some, another rule for another because everyone is an individual and should be judged as such.  It's the reason executioners aren't tried for murder, cops and soldiers in Canada can carry guns but civilians can't, and mentally incompetent people are provided a guardian who has power of attorney to assist them in entering legal contracts.

I'm not even judging a specific action here such as "breaking someone's bones" - I am judging the action IN the context it is presented, and the action alone when divorced from that context can take on an entirely different meaning.

If you want to make blanket judgements on everyone and say "this is right, this is wrong, no ifs ands or buts" that's your choice.  I personally see far more variety in the world to be able to do that.

I want to be perfectly clear I'm not belittling prop's way of life.  I am criticizing the actions her Daddy has taken toward his legal ward.  If that is against the TOS, I apologize in advance, but as I've not yet been asked to end this discussion by a moderator I will feel free to continue.  If and when a moderator tells me I have crossed the line I will apologize and take it to email.



Of course everyone is an individual... so why are you not treating prop as one?  Why are you telling someone the right way to go ?
 
And I notice no one has responded to Bobs post -

quote:

Why else 'believe' everything she says about her relationship with Daddy -except- the part about how right this is for her?


And criticizing someone is also against TOS.  Why a Mod hasn;t been around is their business, but truely - in answering the way you have because I made you aware of the TOS, is a mass of contradictions in itself with what you are discussing.  Do you enjoy breaking the law because you haven't read the small print in reality?  Do you think that would really hold up in a court?  Why turn something into a witch hunt and make it personal, instead of focusing on the issue itself?  Consent on Limits and what they mean.
 
Making judgements is healthy.  Pretending or fooling yourself that everything we do is consensual - isn't.
 
Peace
the.dark.

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 7:43:05 AM   
UR2Badored


Posts: 506
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin


That's not my point.

You are judging her for not doing what you would do.



I think she has left building and is spending time with Elvis and Chellekitty

Anyway, You seem to be judging her by her not addressing the issue as you like.  Just because some people do think it is a question of legal consent, does not mean they are refering to extremes and vice versa (apparently) Again, I think it is a bit unfair how this topic transpire, but a valid topic all the same.......Extremes and consent are so different viewpoints .....

This is off a "no limits" topic....It is not necessary a bad thing when a topic takes on momentum in a different direction....Someone should start a  general mental compency and consent thread........That seems to be what is being argued now and that in itself is entirely separate and  valid argument/topic.  Bob, would you start a thread?  Somebody?  Anybody?



< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 9/20/2007 7:48:04 AM >

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 7:48:55 AM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		Its just beyond the pale that theres even any debate over this. That supposedly rational people are defending someone who "consents" to getting bones broken and even the threat of death.......I am stunned and sickened by it... NOT EVERYTHING CAN BE PROTECTED UNDER THE "You can't criticize my kink" umbrella..... because weather you like it or not people there IS such a thing as right and wrong.....

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 7:50:32 AM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		By the time i posted my comments to your post, you had already edited it.  i was commenting on what you had originally written, before editing it, in which you stated that people were not being judgmental about how some choose to live but, were only questioning the legal issues invovled.  i was stating that there have been a number of comments posted on this thread that were, in my opinion, very judgmental.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

Really?  Not judgmental?  Then how would you categorize this statement, from post
quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored

edited because I missed part of the previous comments:
I dont know enough about the situation to make a statement yay or nay.  This is all news to me......something to think about and yes, makes me concern. Most, not all, are stating that this is a question of legal consent and not speaking extremes.  I hate that this thread has become another battering rod for an individual, but do understand the relevance of what some are expressing. 

Please elaborate on how my statements are being judgemental. You dont think legal consent is an issue and though you are not alone in your thoughts apparently, I think many folks are concerned with legal consent and harm being done to an individaul in that sense. I dont really know enough about the individual being discussed.  Take that out of the discussion and just talk about  the issue of legal consent. I think we should be tolerant of extremes. IT is silly for anyone to be posting on an alternate lifestyle board and profess that extremes should not be tolerated.   This is not the case.....if you are not worried about legal consent.....I shudder and cannot legally imply on here what else you might consider acceptable.

(in reply to UR2Badored)
Profile   Post #: 459
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 7:51:53 AM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Well when she ends up dead because she was just being an obedient "extreme slave" you all will just say..."Well at least she died by consent!!"


We all die.

If this is how she wishes to go, why oppose it?

Or are you telling us her life is worth more to you than her?

What?...... never mind...i dont want to know what the hell you meant to be honest...


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(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 460
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