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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 8:54:27 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

You say "if she wasn't his legal ward, what then" - if she were someone ELSE'S legal ward I would wonder why that person didn't intervene.  If she was found mentally competent and was NOBODY'S legal ward, I would be far more likely to accept the interaction as one between two consenting adults who are able to give consent.  I would still be disgusted by his actions, but the question of consent would be much clearer.


And I'm saying in reading her words and how she expresses herself, I find mental incompetency questionable, or at least, not affecting the cognitive processes needed to form consent.

quote:


Like I said, I'm not criticizing M/s relationships, or SM, or edgeplay.  I'm replying to a very specific situation.

You're right, it would probably have been far more productive to talk to her, suggest she get help, talk to a counselor.  My first thought was anger at him rather than sympathy for her simply because she is not asking for sympathy.  She is proud of her situation.  It would be presumptuous to try to convince her to get help from a women's shelter because she doesn't want help.


And in my opinion no less presumptious than to attack the man she defends.

My point is neither you nor anyone else has taken that approach with Props. You've all attacked her man, disqualified her from any comment, and offered her no help whatsoever.

Why should I not believe you and they do not like her and that all of this stems from that?

quote:


My point is this - she says as her master he has the *right* to do what he wants to her.  That isn't what I'm taking issue with.  It's the fact that he actually *does* these things for his own amusement that bothers me.  And that is entirely a reflection of him, not her.


I disagree. It is a reflection on you, not anyone else.

All you've been doing is staking your ground, in the form of hostility towards another.

You're not Props.


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 8:54:57 AM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		i have been participating in the current discussion.  In fact, i believe this is my 7th post on this thread.  i just thought that you had suggested that someone start a new thread related to mental competency and consent, as i read in this post of yours, http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1288681

quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored
This is off a "no limits" topic....It is not necessary a bad thing when a topic takes on momentum in a different direction....Someone should start a  general mental compency and consent thread........That seems to be what is being argued now and that in itself is entirely separate and  valid argument/topic.  Bob, would you start a thread?  Somebody?  Anybody?


Or, did i misunderstand what you were saying?
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
i do have views about this but, i thought it was suggested that a new thread be started to address the issue of how mental competency relates to the ability to make an informed consent. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored
Okay fair enough,  extremes aside, do you think mental compency and consent is an issue at all in any relationship?


Wow, just wow!   Feel free to participate, at any time, on the current discussion.

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 8:55:03 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

My point is this - she says as her master he has the *right* to do what he wants to her.  That isn't what I'm taking issue with.  It's the fact that he actually *does* these things for his own amusement that bothers me.  And that is entirely a reflection of him, not her.



And your issue with it is a reflection of you, not him.
 
DG


Very true.  But I have yet to find someone who would say that anal sex so rough that it opens up tears in the anus (an area with high bacterial concentration) that can lead to bloodborne illnesses, beating a woman so violently her bones are broken, or exposing her to violent, unprotected sex with people who may or may not have STDs is in her best interest.

Are you going to be the first?  Are you going to tell me that she is better off having those things done to her than if he didn't do those things?  No skirting the issue by saying "well she is better with him than without him" - that's not what I'm asking.  I'm talking about the actions themselves - would she be better off if he did not do those specific actions.  Or do you genuinely believe that a person is better off being consistently exposed to threats of disfigurement and illnesses that can cause death?

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 8:56:47 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Got to chime in....Cuz it's "how I rollz"....Anywhoooo, does anyone recall the "Feelings of worthlessness" thread?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1260905/tm.htm
quote:

BitaTruble
Okay, so I'm not here to tell you that you have value. I'm not here to offer you pity or even compassion if you're in that bad place. I'm just here to say that I've been there myself and now I'm not. I'm just here to say, you're not the only one. When you're steeped in absolute darkness, you can't hear, can't see, can't even feel, maybe the knowledge that someone, once, was in that room, too, can help. Maybe just knowing that there is someone else out there who, if nothing else, sorta understands .. maybe that's just enough of a pin prick of light so that when you're ready to crawl out of the blackness, you'll have a direction to go.

You know, if you do all the shit I did and it comes from a healthy place, then this isn't directed at you. You already know your value.  It's for the other ones. The ones who've misplaced their own humanity. Okay?


I took some rather heavy exception to this thread ....simply because this "lifestyle" can be especially detrimental  upon those that are "damaged" or for some reason cannot or do not make wise decisions....There will always be people around to prey upon those that lack good judgement....As there will always be people who claim they have seen the light....When in fact they have actually just found some place that is a little less dark.

quote:

BitaTruble
I have this in my profile - "What limits cannot be surpassed with courage, tenacity and desire." What is too extreme? Who determines what is or is not acceptable for 'me' to do if not.. well, me? The answer to that question is Himself. None other. Not those who claim to speak for the billions of people on the planet when most of us know the mearest handful of souls. What's not done? What can anyone think of that someone, somewhere isn't doing? Every 30 seconds, 2 per minute, every hour of every die someone is out there committing suicide. Death is not a limit for them. People cut off their limbs for the thrill of it, for insurance claims etc. People are people and people are capable of doing anything that people can imagine doing and yet, suddenly, put on some leather chaps and 'everybody' has limits? That's just.. damn, I don't even know.. rather preposterous if you ask me.. and, you did ask. :)

Okay, so maybe I'm a french fry short of a Happy Meal, but to be consumed, bite by bite, and ingested .. to become a part of the inner workings of Michael, to have 'me' run through his veins, nourishing his body.. just thinking about it gets me hot. So there you go, death, amputation, cannabalism all rolled into one, hot, incredible last scene. What a way to go! Much better than being hit by a bus.

Celeste


I rest my case.





< Message edited by domiguy -- 9/20/2007 9:01:49 AM >

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 8:58:38 AM   
UR2Badored


Posts: 506
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline 		....Yes I mentioned someone opening another topic. So what?  There is a current discussion going on here.......comprehend it or not as you may.......

< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 9/20/2007 9:01:20 AM >

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:03:10 AM   
breatheasone


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Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Its just beyond the pale that theres even any debate over this. That supposedly rational people are defending someone who "consents" to getting bones broken and even the threat of death.......I am stunned and sickened by it... NOT EVERYTHING CAN BE PROTECTED UNDER THE "You can't criticize my kink" umbrella..... because weather you like it or not people there IS such a thing as right and wrong.....


Can you point to a single post where you addressed Props, explained to her why she should get out of her situation, and offered her assistance/advice on how to live the rest of her life?


What???....what in the world does that have to do with ANYTHING i said in the post of mine you quoted?......


_____________________________

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:05:50 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		you seem to have this problem...i had the same problem, but then i corrected it...i will help you...you are expecting people to use l-o-g-i-c on these boards....don't say it without the hyphens...they will become confused and heads will explode....and not in an orgasmic kind of way...its much easier to read these boards when you suspend all l-o-g-i-c


< Message edited by chellekitty -- 9/20/2007 9:06:23 AM >

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:07:09 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Using fast reply..........

Yesterday I began to read through this entire thread prompted by another thread and then life interupted. However, I have been thinking about it off and on.



As of  yesterday, we are no longer discussing limits.........that was so two days ago <valley girl head tilt>......

Never in my real life have I heard a debate on the lack mental compency or consent in any relationship and whether or not it is okay.....welcome to the internet..


Yeah, no shit eh.

I see that dp is getting her fair share of shit for her life and chosen relationship.

You know, again I see a bit of an internet phenomenon with this. Maybe I live in a weird part of the world but I have never seen a neighborhood or actual physical community where everyone sits around dissecting each other's relationships and which are correct and which are sick and wrong.

Personally I see alot of shit grown people do to other grown people that bugs the hell out of me. I used to work with a woman that came to work crying and moaning about how mean her husband and growing sons were to her. At first I was very sympathetic and would listen to her sob stories, wipe her tears and so forth. But then, after a few years of that shit my patience ran out. We are talking about a grown woman here. Someone doing the accounting for a fair sized company with a working brain. There comes a point where the only person responsible for her happiness is HER. Finally I just nicely told her I didn't want to hear about it anymore. I have a person point of view on that issue "Hit me once, shame on you. Hit me twice, shame on me." I cannot feel bad for, try to help people, that are not willing to help themself or see a need to make the change.

Now, that being said. I know there are the abuse police that are going to jump all over the thought that there are plenty of people that are unable to help themselves. Yeah, well duh, no shit sherlock. But, where do we draw the line. Tell me how to determine what is across the line right and wrong? There are millions of people that would say some of the stuff I have done in a relationship and enjoyed the hell out of, is wrong. Alot of them would say that the participating parties of those activities must be mentally ill to have consented and even worse, ENJOYED it!

Soooo, while I may not personally agree with DP's choices or have any respect for her owner (based upon my own personal limitations and morality for MY LIFE), I cannot in good concious call their choices wrong or condemn them for it.


_____________________________

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:07:40 AM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

you seem to have this problem...i had the same problem, but then i corrected it...i will help you...you are expecting people to use l-o-g-i-c on these boards....don't say it without the hyphens...they will become confused and heads will explode....and not in an orgasmic kind of way...its much easier to read these boards when you suspend all l-o-g-i-c


Gotcha....i'm getting that ....its sinking in...


_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:08:11 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

And I'm saying in reading her words and how she expresses herself, I find mental incompetency questionable, or at least, not affecting the cognitive processes needed to form consent.


True, but like I said there are many forms of mental illness.  A person doesn't have to be seeing pink elephants to be mentally incompetent.  In fact plenty of psychopaths are able to express themselves quite eloquently - Hitler being the first I can think of off the top of my head.  I'm not saying she is delusional, or mentally handicapped.  There's a difference between mental handicap (retardation) and mental incompetency (inability to care for oneself) and the latter can be anywhere ranging from seems sane on the outside but has impaired judgement skills to homeless and muttering to oneself about aliens.

I am not her psychiatrist, so I can't tell you why she is mentally incompetent.  All I know is that she was declared so, and that as such it is her Daddy's responsibility to make sound judgements on her behalf.  That is something he is not doing.

You can dispute the psychiatrists all you want but you've never even met the girl much less had any in depth counseling sessions with her.  Forgive me if I take the psychiatrist's professional diagnosis after plenty of in depth sessions to be more valid than your opinion based on how well she forms sentences on a message board.

quote:


And in my opinion no less presumptious than to attack the man she defends.

My point is neither you nor anyone else has taken that approach with Props. You've all attacked her man, disqualified her from any comment, and offered her no help whatsoever.

Why should I not believe you and they do not like her and that all of this stems from that?



I don't like her or dislike her - this isn't high school and I'm not calling her boyfriend a jerk to hurt her feelings.  I am questioning his level of responsibility toward his legal ward, and questioning whether his sadistic impulses are even under his own control.  I do not believe he is acting entirely in her best interest.  That has nothing to do with whether or not I like her.  Even if she were my worst enemy I would still think he was not acting entirely in her best interest.


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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:10:32 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Maybe I live in a weird part of the world but I have never seen a neighborhood or actual physical community where everyone sits around dissecting each other's relationships and which are correct and which are sick and wrong.


Thats what we do all saturday around here...is that bad?  We do however, try to keep it just between friends we trust and out of the community at large....


_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:11:07 AM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Oh and daddysgirl....go piss up a rope and take your personal axe you wish to grind with you...your opinion of me doesn't mean a fucking thing on this end.


Well, i tried to piss up a rope once but it didn't work...especially since the wind was blowing.
 
And as well, your opinion of what is "acceptable" on any issue doesn't mean a lot on this end either.  Sorry to bust the bubble
 
DG

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:12:22 AM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		Hi MadRabbit,
 
First, i didn't say there was anything wrong with being judgmental.  Everyone is judgmental.  i also never said that being judgmental is the same as being closed minded.  The post you quoted, was written in response to a post that UR2Badored wrote and then edited, while i was still responding to it, in which it was stated that the comments being posted on this thread were not being judgmental but, were questioning the legal issues regarding mental competency and consent.  i simply pointed out that there have been posts made on here that were judgmental and not dealing with legal issues. 
 
Secondly, i welcome your comments and read them with interest and consider your views to be relevant to the discussion and well written.  i enjoy reading opposing views and have no objection to judgmental views.  In fact, i usually enjoy countering them with my own judgmental views.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I also dont understand how being "judgemental" translates to "close minded". I consider myself to be a very open minded person, not because I dont judge, but because I actually read the posts, wait a period of time before forming an opinion, and put some thought into it. I'm also willing to have those opinions revived if people actually provide additional information and not indignation.

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:22:53 AM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		Hi Aswad,

Prop clarified and I agree just a slightly different perspective. I will try and comply with any order, I love my life with him and my kiddo's continued stability and access to the life he has depends on my trying. Forced compliance is a cornerstone and foundational aspect of *us*. It was very important to me that he be able and willing to always take it a notch higher than me. I was seeking a relationship that was inescapeable. I was looking to be managed and to finally belong. I come at this from a very different perspective than lots of people.

Somehwhat off-topic(or maybe not) but in line with your mentioning reconditioning. There has been a lot of conditioning/belief-altering done by him to make sure I process my life with him and the things he does as ultimately positive for me and in-line with his goals and long term plans. I have in the past seen people describe my relationship as "cultish" but because I process everything as positive and good for me and good for our family, the term "abusive" doesn't apply.

Sorry for getting off the no limits debate I realize that how I use the term and how most people use it is very different.

Thanks for the reply!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Hi, BeingChewsie.

You and prop are saying slightly different things. Both of you are subject to forced compliance. Both of you are willing to try to comply with anything (if I have read your past posts correctly, e.g. in connection with the would-be kajira). The difference is that she appears to believe she can and will comply with any order that is physically possible for her to comply with. And some differences in use of force and handling of fallout.

I have insufficient grounds to assess whether she would succeed at complying, but I do know that it is possible to get to a point where physical ability to comply is the limiting factor, although that strays into the domain of deep reconditioning and possibly use of prescription medication, depending on too many factors to go into here.

As for most relationships, I couldn't comment. From what I've seen in the local scene and online, it would appear most are based in suspense-of-disbelief, with some using forced compliance, and a few being without a notion of revoking consent. Agreeing to not impose any limits on what a dom/master/owner can do seems to be divided into two groups: those who think their partner will never cross the unspoken/actual limits (usual meaning; uncommon, and unrealistic in the long term) and those who are aware that this may actually happen but choose to accept that anyway (rare; very rare when they know it will happen, like in prop's case).

I would say there's nothing to ridicule about any of those choices, but Rover disagrees.
I would say there's plenty to respect about each of those choices, but Rover disagrees.

I am in perfect agreement with you that long term successful relationships depend on an absolute mutual commitment to the relationship and one's attendant responsibilities. The common trend of abandoning ship at the first heavy rainfall is unproductive and rather unsatisfying. Personally, I would add a few other opinions about that attitude, but those opinions are best left at stating I have them, without elaborating.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:30:30 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Let me set this straight....I don't dislike prop...I don't even fucking know her. I could give a flying fuck what she and her daddy want to do in their relationship. I have no desire to save her. What I do care about is that she brings her story here as an example of what should be accepted as "ok". Well in order to make the decision personally of whether or not you want to believe it really is "ok"....or even if it really is real....it might be helpful to know that the person giving such advice claims to have been found mentally incompetent.

There are a lot of people who come to these boards who have zero experience in this lifestyle. Without presenting them with all the relevant facts I would think it would be impossible for them to look at the advice given and make an informed decision as to what would be right for themselves.


Are you seriously saying there are people who will ask to have their arms broken because Prop says it is okay with her and Daddy?

Were these people just hatched out of a factory with no life experience whatsoever?

Is this the depth of disrespect you have for newcomers? That they'd be so stupid and naive as to jump on Prop's bandwagon without a second thought ...

... unless you save them by providing "relevant facts"?

So you're pretty much set for life, as there will always be newcomers to save, more reason for you to tell one and all that Prop was declared incompetent.

Where would BDSM be without is 'white knights'?


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:36:41 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

NOT EVERYTHING CAN BE PROTECTED UNDER THE "You can't criticize my kink" umbrella..... because weather you like it or not people there IS such a thing as right and wrong.....


Yes, there is. However, the fact that this may be true does not give you, or anyone else on these boards the right to decide what is right and what is wrong for another person. The young lady is in a consentual relationship; what's more she's happy to be in that relationship.
quote:

  I'm not questioning her right to live her life how she chooses. 

Well good for you.
quote:

  I'm questioning HIS actions and HIS intentions

Please tell me what gives you the right to say that his actions and his intentions, in regards to his own property, are right or wrong?
quote:

  His behavior and his motivations are what I've been questioning, and everyone seems to be skirting that issue in order to defend her right to be with him.


Perhaps that is because you are not understanding that as his property, his behavior and his motivations towards Prop are none of your business.
quote:

  It's the fact that he actually *does* these things for his own amusement that bothers me

Sadism at its best

Adaddysgirl... I loved your post lol

quote:

  What I do care about is that she brings her story here as an example of what should be accepted as "ok".

She's happy. He's happy. What is not ok with that?
quote:

  it might be helpful to know that the person giving such advice claims to have been found mentally incompetent.


Yea, that way, everyone can jump on the moral bandwagon and start insulting and bashing anyone who does not jump up with you.



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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:37:58 AM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Let me set this straight....I don't dislike prop...I don't even fucking know her. I could give a flying fuck what she and her daddy want to do in their relationship. I have no desire to save her. What I do care about is that she brings her story here as an example of what should be accepted as "ok". Well in order to make the decision personally of whether or not you want to believe it really is "ok"....or even if it really is real....it might be helpful to know that the person giving such advice claims to have been found mentally incompetent.

There are a lot of people who come to these boards who have zero experience in this lifestyle. Without presenting them with all the relevant facts I would think it would be impossible for them to look at the advice given and make an informed decision as to what would be right for themselves.


Are you seriously saying there are people who will ask to have their arms broken because Prop says it is okay with her and Daddy?

Were these people just hatched out of a factory with no life experience whatsoever?

Is this the depth of disrespect you have for newcomers? That they'd be so stupid and naive as to jump on Prop's bandwagon without a second thought ...

... unless you save them by providing "relevant facts"?

So you're pretty much set for life, as there will always be newcomers to save, more reason for you to tell one and all that Prop was declared incompetent.

Where would BDSM be without is 'white knights'?


Ahhh...so are you saying people that "jump on Prop's bandwagon" are "stupid and naive"....and Prop told everyone she was declared incompetent in the 1st place FYI


_____________________________

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:38:19 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		 
quote:

xoxi
I don't like her or dislike her - this isn't high school and I'm not calling her boyfriend a jerk to hurt her feelings.  I am questioning his level of responsibility toward his legal ward, and questioning whether his sadistic impulses are even under his own control.  I do not believe he is acting entirely in her best interest.  That has nothing to do with whether or not I like her.  Even if she were my worst enemy I would still think he was not acting entirely in her best interest.


I don't know how much of this is always being considerate of what is  in the sub's best interest.  It's kind of a part of the dynamic.....Don't feel like anal?...And then turning around to finish the job?...Tough shit!...lol.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 9/20/2007 9:39:08 AM >

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:49:08 AM   
UR2Badored


Posts: 506
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


[ It's kind of a part of the dynamic.....Don't feel like anal?...And then turning around to finish the job?...Tough shit!...lol.


Tough shit--nothing stops you eh?

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A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way
Mark Twain

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 499
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 9:49:48 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
The young lady is in a consentual relationship;


if we are to believe what she says, everything else is a moot point...she can't legally consent...legally she is like a child...change her legal status and i don't give a flying fuck if he wants to chop off an inch of her body each week....i'm not gonna read about it...but that can be their kink...their kink is fine...at this point, she can not consent to plain missionary under the covers lights off 2 minute vanilla sex...and he is abusing his rights as legal gaurdian...and she can keep him from going to jail by going to legal aide and being declared competant and still staying in the same freaking situation if thats what she wants!  i would think that if he was not afraid of her being able to leave him, he would not keep her legally bound to him and risk going to jail for the things he does, because trust me...people with legal gardianship do not just get handed the title and are never checked up on again...

the intolerant, judgemental, concerned, noncomplacent one...


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One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 500
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