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RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:06:59 AM

missturbation

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

See i can understand that use of a safe word, but to clarify i think i am looking more towards the stop play safe word, not the pause kind of safe word.

I can understand any use of it; it's just formalized communication.

But the protocol I prefer to use is fairly simple:

"Red" means a medical emergency has happened, is happening, or will happen.
"Pink" means something should be checked soon, or (where used) a pause is needed.
"Stop" usually means "I hope you're enjoying this, because I'm not".
"My name is so-and-so, and I'm okay" means "Dang, I made it!"

Yes, the last one was a joke.

Oh, and for session play, "red" also means "I withdraw consent now".

Health,
al-Aswad.

With respect this does not show the trust aspects involved in having safewords. How does having those words in place show trust for you?

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 81

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:11:11 AM

missturbation

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Maya - I totally agree with your analysis of when you first meet a Dom but im looking towards longer term relationships where people still feel the need to say this is a limit or i still want safewords.
When trust grows between you why still the need for all these limits and special words to show a problem?
If Sir asks me to do anything i would comply as i truly believe He knows me well enough to know what my capabilities are and are not.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Maya2001)

Post #: 82

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:12:57 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Ok them being a tool a tool i can understand. Yes i trust my dominant to have a first aid kit nearby. Have i ever asked Him if there is one nearby? No!! I trust Him to not have to ask or know it is nearby.

We don't think inquiring as to basic first aid violates any trust. We find it reasonable - like asking where the band-aids when you cut your finger. As for asking... I don't have to. I'm the one that put it there.

quote:

See this is where i have the trouble understanding. By having to say 'you cannot bite into my jugular with your fangs' you are saying (in my opinion) 'i don't trust you not to unless i say something'.

Which strikes me as so weird.

I've never actually said that "You can't bite into my juglar". We just discussed using his fangs to bring blood and I said "I dunno how comfortable I am about bringing blood from my neck." His fangs are sharp but unweildy - he simply doesn't have as much control as he would with a knife. I would an idiot to think he did. His response was along the lines of "Well duh... I wasn't going to use them there".

We talk about what we do a lot because he wants to know how I feel about everything. That means I get to tell him what makes me antsy. Sometimes he does it anyway. Sometimes he agrees with me. But the talking every tiny little detail is one of the reasons why I will trust him when/if he does bring those fangs to my neck. I know he won't try to go for the juglar because we commicated about it.

quote:

With respect i don't see that at all. If i had a tape recorder i could get Sir in all sorts of trouble too. Either way you look at that one i really think there is no difference.

Simple. When your ropes hurt you say "Please loosen the ropes" and it happens. If I don't use a safeword and I say "The ropes are too tight", he says "Too bad bitch!"

Which sounds worse? Both get could you in trouble but since you use "no" as your stop word, you aren't screaming it during sex. I am during some scenes. Sounds a lot more like an actual rape then.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 9/20/2007 7:14:14 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 83

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:16:14 AM

libbiez

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without reading every single post in this thread (although i did read most of them) I must say that not everyone slams into a relationship with trust raging at full boar.... Trust takes time, safe words and limits seem to fade as trust grows, would that not be the natural progression in any relationship? maybe people who say I trust my One completely are actualy saying I trust my One more than I have ever been able to trust anyone else in my life.... just a thought.
Safe words and limits are tools to be used just like a flogger or cuffs some use them and some dont.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 84

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:17:19 AM

AquaticSub

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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~Question in General~

What do you do when your dominant says "I don't fucking care how much you trust me - you are going to have a safeword in place as a backup safety measure. If you ever use or not is on your pretty head, but you will have one!"

Do you go "Oh no, I can't have one because then our relationship has trust issues!" and disobey? Or do you just enjoy the fact that they are concerned for your safety and pretty much forget about the thing unless a day comes when you need it?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 85

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:21:27 AM

missturbation

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Thank you Aquatic.
Your post had made it sound like you had put no biting of my jugular as a limit and in that case i would see no reason to do it. However now you state it was just an every day discussion about it it sounds reasonable to me.
I have been known to say my ropes are too tight Sir and He will say tough luck. I dont say no, it isnt in my vocab with Sir. I too have been known to curse and make sounds but no i have never asked for respite without meaning it. However he could ignore me so pretty much same same to me.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 86

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:23:21 AM

missturbation

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quote:

ORIGINAL: libbiez

without reading every single post in this thread (although i did read most of them) I must say that not everyone slams into a relationship with trust raging at full boar.... Trust takes time, safe words and limits seem to fade as trust grows, would that not be the natural progression in any relationship?
Never said trust was instant. As i have said all the way through the thread im speaking of longer term relationships.
From reading this thread no not everyones limits fade as trust grows.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to libbiez)

Post #: 87

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:26:14 AM

missturbation

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

~Question in General~

What do you do when your dominant says "I don't fucking care how much you trust me - you are going to have a safeword in place as a backup safety measure. If you ever use or not is on your pretty head, but you will have one!"
Thats not going to happen with my current partner.

Do you go "Oh no, I can't have one because then our relationship has trust issues!" and disobey? Or do you just enjoy the fact that they are concerned for your safety and pretty much forget about the thing unless a day comes when you need it?
I certainly wouldn't like having to use a safe word. However if He insists on one i would accept and trust that He has His reasons for it. It to me would be like any activity i dont particularly like but comply with.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 88

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:27:40 AM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Thank you Aquatic.
Your post had made it sound like you had put no biting of my jugular as a limit and in that case i would see no reason to do it. However now you state it was just an every day discussion about it it sounds reasonable to me.

I don't really just state limits - unless we talking about going and fetching some 16 year old for him to play with. Then I state that limit pretty hard and fast but it's never come up and I really fucking doubt it ever will... But anyway, we believe in talking about limits. Nobody likes everything and, for the most part, our scenes are for mutual pleasure so he wants to be well-versed in what I like and don't like.

quote:

I have been known to say my ropes are too tight Sir and He will say tough luck. I dont say no, it isnt in my vocab with Sir. I too have been known to curse and make sounds but no i have never asked for respite without meaning it. However he could ignore me so pretty much same same to me.

To me it just not the same because you aren't actually saying no, which would make non-consent seem very clear if played back.

Obviously "no" is not part of my normal vocab with Valyraen. Just when it suits us to have me say it and him ignore it.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 89

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:29:49 AM

AquaticSub

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I certainly wouldn't like having to use a safe word. However if He insists on one i would accept and trust that He has His reasons for it. It to me would be like any activity i dont particularly like but comply with.

Exactly. Why not trust that other owners have their reasons for continuing to use them instead of thinking there are trust issues in those relationships?

That attitude is very much Valyraen's attitude towards safewords. He does not care how much I trust him. There will be one because he wants it there. That I happen to agree makes little difference.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 9/20/2007 7:31:59 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 90

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:41:15 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

to allow that person, whom you do not know well to do whatever they want to with you without any limits at all would be insane,

Don't know if it would be similarly "insane" or not, but how do you know that same person who "you do not know well" will honor those limits you've outlined? Seems like limits and safe-words require an element of trust that they will be honored. Once tied, gagged, and isolated I hope the people who have negotiated terms and conditions have at least some sense of trust in their partner.

My adamant position against faith in negotiated limits and safe words is that limits and safe words are only good if you can trust them to be honored. They are not a guarantee of safety and do not offer an alternative to trust established over time. I believe their use, especially with the inexperienced, is dangerous. Having faith that they will be honored is only as valid as your trust in the person who will honor them.

You meet a hot looking Dom/Domme. You agree to have a scene and negotiate it agreeing to a flogging session. You get tied, with you back to the Dom and the scene starts with a nice warm up using a soft swede flogger. About five minutes in, unknown to you, the Dom switches to a steel tipped version. The pain and deep inhale prevent vocalizing your prearranged safe word but you manage to shout it out before the third blow falls. You've got blood dripping down your back. Technically he/she didn't exceed your negotiated limit of 'flogging'. Are you confident your safe-word saves you from another strike with the barbed flogger?

Trusting that everyone reading this thread is an adult - making adult decisions is part of personal accountability. The use of safe-words and limits isn't contrary to trusting a partner, but they also aren't fail safe methods to insure that you'll be safe. There is no doubt that in a majority of cases, negotiated activity will be honored as well as safe-words. Then there are the minority of cases...

You don't trust - you shouldn't play. Safe-words and limits offer false security as short cuts for casual play. They still require trust, not something that can or should be 'negotiated'.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 9/20/2007 8:03:40 AM >

(in reply to Maya2001)

Post #: 91

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:51:48 AM

missturbation

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From: another planet
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Exactly. Why not trust that other owners have their reasons for continuing to use them instead of thinking there are trust issues in those relationships?
This is the entire point of the thread, trying to understand and not judge those who are in your position rather than mine.
I'm getting there

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 92

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:53:05 AM

AquaticSub

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
I'm getting there

Yay!

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 93

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:58:16 AM

breatheasone

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I guess i'm still having a hard time undestanding why limits MUST equal a lack of trust....i just don't get what one has to do with the other.

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 94

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 8:21:19 AM

missturbation

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guess i'm still having a hard time undestanding why limits MUST equal a lack of trust....i just don't get what one has to do with the other.

For most as this thread has shown me it obviously doesn't. For me personally in my relationship it still would.
My reasoning -
I discussed with Sir any problems i had with certain activities etc when we first met. For example im asthmatic.
Then after a while i became a no limits slave.
So when Sir wishes to do breath play i place no limits on it. Sir is aware im asthmatic and i trust Him to not do anything that will cause an asthma attack. Of course there is room for error and we are both aware of this and it is my responsibility to have an inhaler with me.
I would not dream of saying 'i cannot wear a gag for more than ten minutes because of my asthma', setting a limit on the play. As for me this would say i do not trust him to act responsibly with the info i have given Him.
If He bought a new knife i would not say to Him 'do not cut me too deeply with that Sir', setting a limit. I trust Him not to cause me any serious or permanent harm with it.
Of course there are limits physically with Sir and i, ie my asthma.
Of course there are probably things i would never do but i do not feel the need to state these as limits as i trust Sir would never ask me to do them.
I say probably because when i first met Sir there were things i thought id never do that i have. I never stated them as limits though, that was not part of our deal.
Limits such as being urinated on as someone mentioned earlier because i dont like it would never even cross my mind to set. My none enjoyment of an activity is no reason to make it a limit in my opinion.
Hope this makes it a little clearer.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to breatheasone)

Post #: 95

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 8:59:29 AM

SolarAndViolet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

What I don't get is how you equate having limits, which are nothing more than human preferences in things they do or don't enjoy, things that turn them off, to lacking trust.
See for me i am required to do things i may not enjoy. If i said to Sir 'i really don't like anal very much' (i do but just an example) He would laugh at me and say 'well i do so tough'.

You see.. so here is the question. How would he -KNOW- the things I do not want happen, unless I tell him? He's not a mind-reader. If I don't tell him - "I don't like *this and this*, it makes me sick to my stomach, it's a total turn off " He will never know and will assume that he can do those things. And if he doesn't know, how can I trust him not to do those things if I never told him my likes and dislikes. From the very beginning we discuss things we like and don't like, both agree on it and from that moment on, we trust each other completely to uphold our agreement. I don't go on telling him and reminding him of limits every time we play. I've stated them once, he's accepted it and that's It. He knows them. And I fully trust him not to do them.

I'm going to repeat what I have said before because I believe that is in the essence a problem to your understanding. And I'm really just trying to help.

You say that you don't have limits, and that's fine. As I understand, you are ok with everything, even if you don't like it but your Dom does as long as it is not "consequential to your health" (figured I might as well use your own words).
But, many people DO have limits.. and many Doms don't want to do most things their subs define as a 'turn off'. They tell each other what those things are and agree from the start. Then, they put full trust into each other to not do them.

Problem for you to understand is that you apply what people tell you, to yourself and your situation. But that way you will never understand because your situation is different from many others. You just have to see it from a different point of view instead of being stuck in your "I have no limits, i don't know my limits.."
Trust for people with limits is no less than that of people without limits. Plain and simple.

'violet'

_____________________________

Vici, Vidi, Veni... (S)

Happy to be owned by Sir (V) (violetaelf)

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 96

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 9:17:19 AM

breatheasone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

guess i'm still having a hard time undestanding why limits MUST equal a lack of trust....i just don't get what one has to do with the other.

For most as this thread has shown me it obviously doesn't. For me personally in my relationship it still would.
My reasoning -
I discussed with Sir any problems i had with certain activities etc when we first met. For example im asthmatic.
Then after a while i became a no limits slave.
So when Sir wishes to do breath play i place no limits on it. Sir is aware im asthmatic and i trust Him to not do anything that will cause an asthma attack. Of course there is room for error and we are both aware of this and it is my responsibility to have an inhaler with me.
I would not dream of saying 'i cannot wear a gag for more than ten minutes because of my asthma', setting a limit on the play. As for me this would say i do not trust him to act responsibly with the info i have given Him.
If He bought a new knife i would not say to Him 'do not cut me too deeply with that Sir', setting a limit. I trust Him not to cause me any serious or permanent harm with it.
Of course there are limits physically with Sir and i, ie my asthma.
Of course there are probably things i would never do but i do not feel the need to state these as limits as i trust Sir would never ask me to do them.
I say probably because when i first met Sir there were things i thought id never do that i have. I never stated them as limits though, that was not part of our deal.
Limits such as being urinated on as someone mentioned earlier because i dont like it would never even cross my mind to set. My none enjoyment of an activity is no reason to make it a limit in my opinion.
Hope this makes it a little clearer.

I swear i dont mean to be difficult...but no...i still don't get you. I do get that simply "not enjoying" something isnt what i would call a limit...for me personally that is.......and breath play with someone who has asthma?....that i REALLY don't get...but thats just me...

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 97

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 9:23:51 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

...My non enjoyment of an activity is no reason to make it a limit...

until this slave became a participant and reader of this internet message board, she thought the above statement was the difference between submitting in a relationship and Dominating one...as in, the one who limits what activities will or will not be done, and, to take it a step further, who will make the decisions when it comes to life choices is the one that is the Dominant part of the D/s.

all or nothing is how this slave rolls, so to further complicate things this slave had never considered nor heard the term "switch", with regard to relationship orientations, either!!!!

then she came here and found folks arguing over it as if it was the difference between slave and submissive, sane or insane...not just a preference on who calls the shots...

this slave prefers, thrives and is fulfilled in a relationship structure where she doesn't call ANY of the shots, doesn't limit Master and doesn't have to keep a safeword at the ready.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 98

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 9:41:50 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
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From: another planet
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You see.. so here is the question. How would he -KNOW- the things I do not want happen, unless I tell him? He's not a mind-reader. If I don't tell him - "I don't like *this and this*, it makes me sick to my stomach, it's a total turn off " He will never know and will assume that he can do those things. And if he doesn't know, how can I trust him not to do those things if I never told him my likes and dislikes.
Well for me just because something makes me sick to the stomach does not make it a limit. Something being a turn off does not make it a limit. Sir knows of my likes and dislikes, but it doesnt mean He isnt going to do and take great pleasure from the things i dislike.
From the very beginning we discuss things we like and don't like, both agree on it and from that moment on, we trust each other completely to uphold our agreement.
Likes and dont likes again do not come into this for me. For myself when i speak of limits i speak of things that will do permanent harm to my body or mind.
I don't go on telling him and reminding him of limits every time we play. I've stated them once, he's accepted it and that's It. He knows them. And I fully trust him not to do them.
Im not saying you do but by stating limits such as d'ont cut me too deep with a knife' for example you to me are showing you do not trust him to not do you harm.
You say that you don't have limits, and that's fine. As I understand, you are ok with everything, even if you don't like it but your Dom does as long as it is not "consequential to your health" (figured I might as well use your own words).
But, many people DO have limits.. and many Doms don't want to do most things their subs define as a 'turn off'. They tell each other what those things are and agree from the start. Then, they put full trust into each other to not do them.
Thats just fine but the part i dont understand is that you wouldnt trust your long term partner not to do these things that could cause permanent harm in the first place. Ok so when you first get together i can understand the reservations, i had them myself. But further down the line why the need for them? You should know you partner well enough by then to say i have no limits, i trust you implicitly.
Problem for you to understand is that you apply what people tell you, to yourself and your situation. But that way you will never understand because your situation is different from many others.
I think you have a very good point here. I am very different to others here and others i know in r/l. This probably is where my problem stems from and i may just have to accept that in this area i am going to be slightly judgemental of others.
Trust for people with limits is no less than that of people without limits. Plain and simple.
I still don't see it. Aquatic has come close to making me undstand it but im still not there. The reasons for people stating they have the same levels of trust just dont make sense to me.
I cannot fathom how you would put a limit on something your dom enjoys just because you do not. Surely pleasing your dom by participating in this activity is more satisfying. Grrrr didnt really want to go into that but feel with all the mentions of my limit is there because i dont like it and dont want to do it warrants it.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to SolarAndViolet)

Post #: 99

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 9:47:33 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
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From: another planet
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I swear i dont mean to be difficult...but no...i still don't get you. I do get that simply "not enjoying" something isnt what i would call a limit...for me personally that is.......and breath play with someone who has asthma?....that i REALLY don't get...but thats just me...

I'm not sure how to make this clearer lol.
Hmm ok will try this. My um has been knocking off school on occasion recently. So i ring her school every day at 9am to make sure she has gone. Eventually i am either going to have to trust her that she will go and stop calling or carry on and show i distrust her.
I place limits on my play with Sir. Eventually i am going to have to trust Him completely, 100% and drop the limits or keep showing i distrust Him in the areas my limits are.
That is how i personally see it.
Hope that is a little clearer.

On the issue of asthma, it does not mean i cannot participate in any breath play. Sir is aware of my asthma and take it into account whenever we use gags, strangulation etc. I do not feel the need to put a limit on this area because i trust He will not push the point of play to where i am gasping from breath and having an asthma attack. Yes accidents could happen though.

< Message edited by missturbation -- 9/20/2007 9:48:09 AM >

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to breatheasone)

Post #: 100

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