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RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 9:38:56 AM

Driver1961

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Joined: 9/8/2005
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He dips His lid to Bob

Yes, you may be well represented on another thread. Missturbation may well have started this thread as a result of it/that thread. It is not the same thread and so neither should I have to read it when I am addressing what is of concern to Missturbation. I simply do not see you addressing her thread in any manner other than how I previously stated and this you have reinforced by your own retort to my post. Yes I do judge you for this and feel no shame, misgiving whatsoever for it.

My suggestion and question was for clarification purposes only. There are two sets of limits that can be imposed: the master's and the slave's. Speaking generically of "limits" does not indicate whose limits are being discussed.

The limits being discussed are Missturbation's perspective of hers with regards to others. Not the imposition of yours over hers. No Bob you (and others) miss what is the essence of her statement on her perspective of limits- hence her lack of understanding what you are saying. Missturbation is past seperating what you seek her to clarify. Her understanding is that her Master and herself have discussed limits, agreed understanding of those, practised the understanding and her Master's actions are (within human limitations) nowadays evolved to a synchronicity of expectations. Hence her difficulty in understanding less evolved forms.

Now Missturbation if I represent you wrongly her I apologise.

Warm regards to all, Driver

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Post #: 41

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 9:38:56 AM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

... a question:

How far does your master trust you?

OH, what a GREAT question. I know some who trust me well enough to leave bloody welts on me, to put needles in my breasts, and to say things like '...take it off, take it off' when I'm panicking and about to puke inside a leather hood.

It's a good thing when a Dominant can trust someone enough to play without limits...and yet know the submissive is strong enough to say "RED" when, in fact they cannot continue. While 'please stop', 'no' and 'I can't' are not safewords; ...when real concern or panic comes up; anything works.

beverly

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Post #: 42

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 9:40:15 AM

chellekitty

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Joined: 3/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Well then tell me - how do you manage to use "green, yellow, and red" without disturbing your "head space"? Are those words part of your "space"?

yes, they are

Edited to add: it took years of training...and work, on my part and multiple Dominants parts...both ones i was in relationships withs and the afore mentioned Matriarch of my leather family, but they are now a part of my head space...i can say "yellow" and communicate through single words whats wrong...if i say green or something to that effect i am not in that head space yet, and if i say red, i am out of that head space or i never got there....

< Message edited by chellekitty -- 9/19/2007 9:45:07 AM >

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 43

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 9:43:19 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

... a question:

How far does your master trust you?

Good question! Mine trusts me enough to believe me when I say "This is really what turns on me, you really can ignore everything that comes out of my mouth except *insert silly word here*" and then "rapes" me while I'm screaming things that could very easily build a case for putting him in jail.

If I were so inclined. Which he trusts me not to be.

Hadn't thought about that before. Interesting angle.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 44

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 9:46:35 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

. If I had to use a code word for help wouldn't that be like saying I could not say 'Master bad pain please stop'.

Not necessarily. Some dynamics use a measure of non-consensual language. "Please stop" in a rape scene would be absurd!

A code by definition is a proxy for something else. Using a code word fundamentally IS saying "Master bad pain please stop".

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Post #: 45

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 9:48:18 AM

sweetNsmartBBW

Posts: 167
Joined: 5/16/2007
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I'm not saying that people who use safe words or have limits are wrong in any way, im just saying i dont understand it.

That's really the reason for this thread then- and I applaud you for trying to understand something that goes counter to what you believe. However, coming at this from a completely different perspective than some of the othe posters- it's okay not to understand something. Just keep on doing what works for you and your Sir...

I usually try so hard not to be judgemental about others relationships but i will openly admit that i am struggling with this.

Why struggle with it? Why be judgemental at all? Curiosity makes perfect sense to me- and trying to understand where other people are coming from is great. However, I don't see any need for judgement. Accept that what's 'right' for you is not what's necessarily what's 'right' for others. There are no right or wrong answers here- just personal preferences and experiences based on individual relationships and needs.

I guess it boils down for me to the question 'If you trust your partner 100% why do you need limits / safewords?'

Not exactly a scientific answer her, but- it's just the way it is. Why do some folks liken a spanking or domestic discipline to abuse- while others see it as a way to feel loved and cherished? Everybody is different- and we all evolve in different ways because of different opinions, personalities and experiences.

Does this not show a lack of trust?

For you it would, because you and your Sir have a relationship that is defined in that way. For others- no, it does not. Reading through the thread, it seems that for others the absence of a safeword seems to show a lack of trust- or of respect. Again, it's all subjective- and defined by the relationships and the individual's in them.

And if you havent got 100% trust what have you got?

I agree completely. From your post, it's apparent that you and your Sir have that. Some other folks, including those that have safewords, have it too. No need for anyone (either from the pro- or anti -safeword camps) to think that using, or not using, safewords is in any way an indicator of trust in a relationship. It seems like a limited and inadequate measuring stick. Only the people in a given relationship know if trust exists- and the tools they use to convey that trust to each other can vary greatly.

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 46

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 9:51:15 AM

Driver1961

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Joined: 9/8/2005
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He dips His lid to all:

Well, well Mercnbeth! We are all different creatures. Many cannot speak during headspace let alone reason but simply react physically as you would be well aware Merc.

chelleKitty; it is difficult to reason in deep space without leaving it backwards into 'spacey space' to verbalise and I think this is what Mernbeth queried. It would normally affect the spacing. I'd appreciate your comments and to know if your Dom's observations supported your perceptions.

Warm regards Driver

< Message edited by Driver1961 -- 9/19/2007 9:52:37 AM >

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Post #: 47

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 9:55:00 AM

chellekitty

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i could make a phone call and ask...i am pretty sure it involves pointing on their part and grunting on my part....lol....

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to Driver1961)

Post #: 48

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 10:05:38 AM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Driver1961

He dips His lid to Bob

Yes, you may be well represented on another thread. Missturbation may well have started this thread as a result of it/that thread. It is not the same thread and so neither should I have to read it when I am addressing what is of concern to Missturbation. I simply do not see you addressing her thread in any manner other than how I previously stated and this you have reinforced by your own retort to my post. Yes I do judge you for this and feel no shame, misgiving whatsoever for it.

My suggestion and question was for clarification purposes only. There are two sets of limits that can be imposed: the master's and the slave's. Speaking generically of "limits" does not indicate whose limits are being discussed.

The limits being discussed are Missturbation's perspective of hers with regards to others. Not the imposition of yours over hers. No Bob you (and others) miss what is the essence of her statement on her perspective of limits- hence her lack of understanding what you are saying. Missturbation is past seperating what you seek her to clarify. Her understanding is that her Master and herself have discussed limits, agreed understanding of those, practised the understanding and her Master's actions are (within human limitations) nowadays evolved to a synchronicity of expectations. Hence her difficulty in understanding less evolved forms.

Now Missturbation if I represent you wrongly her I apologise.

And as I asked her for clarification I fail to see the need for any of your rhetoric or judgment.

Indulge in it as you wish.

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(in reply to Driver1961)

Post #: 49

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 10:27:56 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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Driver,
What I'm not aware of is how to accommodate the belief that "sub space" has a quality of disassociation yet at the same time the responsibility of personal safety at some level resides with the person claiming to be having a disassociated experience. Perhaps you can explain why this is a path to safety from either the sub or Dom's perspective? Or are there different versions of "sub space"; a safe-word "sub space" and a non safe word "sub space"?

I'm aware that many of the people I've shared experiences didn't and don't have the capability of being responsible for themselves during our interaction. If you haven't seen or experienced that, I can appreciate your thinking that a submissive has that ability to control a scene while experiencing all the sensations, and processing each one of them and then deciding what code should be vocalized. It takes a massive amount of responsibility for what happens away from the Dom and that's a responsibility I believe is very dangerous.

As you point out - many can't speak. A Dom, who is waiting for the predetermined word or even grunt, may well continue or misinterpret the grunt as a grunt of passion and intensify the exact sensation the grunt was meant to discourage. And why shouldn't he/she? After all - the Dom is relying on the subs safe-word to keep them safe.

I also have a personal "theory" that I've debated with many friends in the community. I believe that if you interact with a safe-word the part of your brain and the mental/emotional process required to be responsible for remembering, vocalizing or by other means, expressing your "distress" is counter to very goal of "sub-space". I'm not representing that it is impossible, but I believe it gets in the way of enjoyment for both the Dom and the sub.

It has always been my preference and position that if a person who wanted to interact with me required a safe-word I would pass on the opportunity or at least defer it until they knew and trusted me enough not to need one. I've never lost a 'slave' or 'sub'. Admittedly that statement requires a 'yet' at the end of it. By the same token, I've stopped a few encounters over the years where I noted something had gone 'wrong'. Would I have been as observant and/or proactive relying on the sub's control of the scene? Who knows - I just know that I am very comfortable with the responsibility and not comfortable giving it to a person who's goal is a mental 'space' of disassociation.

(in reply to Driver1961)

Post #: 50

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 10:54:49 AM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

[I am] not comfortable giving it to a person who's goal is a mental 'space' of disassociation.

and here-in could lie the difference...that is the desired goal for me....and i only play with Tops who are comfortable with that responsibility and are educated in what does happen and what could happen...informed consent comes from both sides...

edited for clarity

< Message edited by chellekitty -- 9/19/2007 10:56:25 AM >

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 51

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 11:16:24 AM

iammachine

Posts: 1549
Joined: 1/25/2006
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quote:

I'm not saying that people who use safe words or have limits are wrong in any way, im just saying i dont understand it. I usually try so hard not to be judgemental about others relationships but i will openly admit that i am struggling with this.
I guess it boils down for me to the question 'If you trust your partner 100% why do you need limits / safewords?'
Does this not show a lack of trust?
And if you havent got 100% trust what have you got?

Because no matter how skilled a top is, or how well they are in tune with you, they're still human. Humans make mistakes, and we're not psychic.

A safe word is just that, its a safeguard. It's a very quick, very definite way of saying "hey, something isn't right here!" that s/he may or may not have noticed, and correcting the situation. It may not be for you, but it doesn't signify any more or less trust in a person. Sometimes you just run into unforeseen things, or someone is having an off day and their endurance isn't the same as usual - which the top may not be able to anticipate or always see. I see it as trusting someone implicitly, but also trusting that they will respect your use of a safeword should something be "off".

It's just as much a safeguard for the top as it is the bottom, I would hate to push someone beyond their limits because I couldn't "read" physical cues (if they were present), or the bottom was too blissed out to communicate fully what was going on with them. Some people say that safewords aren't terrible useful to them for that reason. Personally, if I'm having trouble thinking or verbalizing coherantly, I can still probably muster a "yellow" or "red". It's not foolproof, naturally, but I'd rather err on the side of caution, and have safewords in place and end up likely not needing to use them. If I know someone is strictly nonverbal, I'm probably going to be even more cautious than usual.

< Message edited by iammachine -- 9/19/2007 11:20:32 AM >

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Post #: 52

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 11:42:51 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

quote:

[I am] not comfortable giving it to a person who's goal is a mental 'space' of disassociation.

and here-in could lie the difference...that is the desired goal for me....and i only play with Tops who are comfortable with that responsibility and are educated in what does happen and what could happen...informed consent comes from both sides...
edited for clarity

chelle kitty,
I know you already "edited for clarity" and I hope you don't think I'm again asking you for more clarification because I'm being difficult. But I honestly don't understand.

You referenced my quote concerning "disassociation" so I'm take it that is what you applied the "desired goal for me..." statement. Doesn't some part of you has to remain "associated" to be able to verbalize or give the appropriate grunt?

Then you say, "i only play with Tops who are comfortable with that responsibility". What "responsibility"? The responsibility to wait and/or understand your words or other forms of expression or who are "educated" and have "informed consent" not to rely on you?

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 53

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 11:43:49 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

I trust him implicitly but that doesn't mean I think he's a mindreader. He isn't going to know from looking at me that the third wind of the rope on my upper left thigh is pinching slightly. Or that I'm going to sneeze if he doesn't get the hair caught in the blindfold to stop tickling my nose. Or that I think I'm coming down with a cold and really need to not have my head off the side of the bed because it will start up my vertigo which only comes on with sinus problems.

So I tell him, or use a gesture so he will remove the gag and then tell him. And then he fixes the problem and we go on if we can and stop if we can't. Here it just means there's a problem.

Totally understand the use of a safe word in that way. For me though i just say my restraints are too tight etc. Again personal choice of how we deal with those kind of things.

I'm not always able to get a complete sentence out. Depends on how deep I've gone. So using no, stop, red, gets his attention fast. And usually I'm gagged so I can't possibly communicate a problem exactly through the gag. But a safe gesture gets his attention and gets the gag removed so then I can tell him what the problem is.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 54

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 11:44:47 AM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: iammachine

It's just as much a safeguard for the top as it is the bottom, I would hate to push someone beyond their limits because I couldn't "read" physical cues (if they were present), or the bottom was too blissed out to communicate fully what was going on with them. Some people say that safewords aren't terrible useful to them for that reason. Personally, if I'm having trouble thinking or verbalizing coherantly, I can still probably muster a "yellow" or "red". It's not foolproof, naturally, but I'd rather err on the side of caution, and have safewords in place and end up likely not needing to use them. If I know someone is strictly nonverbal, I'm probably going to be even more cautious than usual.

and on top of that some of us like playing with non-consensual consensuality...
"NO...stop that you fucking bitch...OWWWW...goddammitthatfuckinghurtsyousonofabitchmotherfucker" means...that feels good, please do NOT stop...and we do need a code word of something actually does hurt in a bad way..

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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Post #: 55

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 11:48:14 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

and on top of that some of us like playing with non-consensual consensuality...
"NO...stop that you fucking bitch...OWWWW...goddammitthatfuckinghurtsyousonofabitchmotherfucker" means...that feels good, please do NOT stop...and we do need a code word of something actually does hurt in a bad way..

That is pretty much why we have it. Sometimes it's just hot to be able to say "Sir the ropes are too tight!" and have them respond "Too bad bitch".

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 56

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 12:02:58 PM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

chelle kitty,
I know you already "edited for clarity" and I hope you don't think I'm again asking you for more clarification because I'm being difficult. But I honestly don't understand.

no problem...the clarity i edited for was because it was jumbled, not because i gave an in depth explination...

quote:

You referenced my quote concerning "disassociation" so I'm take it that is what you applied the "desired goal for me..." statement. Doesn't some part of you has to remain "associated" to be able to verbalize or give the appropriate grunt?

yes...without getting too deep into psychology...imagine the brain having layers...one section of layers being the "human" or "evolved" brain and another section of layers being the "animal" or "primative" brain...i consider disassociation, to be the process of peeling back those layers...i am not there, but part of me is...i have never been in a scene where all the layers of the first section have been peeled away....therefore i have never been unable to verbalize that something was wrong....follow?

quote:

Then you say, "i only play with Tops who are comfortable with that responsibility". What "responsibility"? The responsibility to wait and/or understand your words or other forms of expression or who are "educated" and have "informed consent" not to rely on you?

in a word...yes...all of the above...they are comfortable making the descion whether to stop should i not be able to verbalize what is wrong or to continue after checking standard physical things - circulation, tightness of muscles (for cramping), if my eyes can focus (cause if they can't at that point, its fairly pointless to continue to cause me pain because i won't feel it...some Dominants will do some sort of cool down to bring me back towards the surface)

i hope i answered your questions, and if i didn't, ask more...i really do like well thought out, valid questions...

take care
chelle

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 57

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 1:27:08 PM

umisprite

Posts: 132
Joined: 6/16/2007
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In previous long term relationships safe words and limits were not an issue...we had intimate understanding of each other so the trust was 100%. We wouldn't be where we were if it wasn't.

The one and only time I can remember using what some might call a safe word was when I had to say 'stop, I can't breathe' while we were trying a new bondage position. Not a lack of trust but an experiment gone wrong. Stop, cut loose, breathe...all's well...no loss of trust just a lesson learned.

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Post #: 58

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 1:31:16 PM

chellekitty

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i keep typing "not to nitpick" but...i'm gonna do it like a hungry little monkey...
if you can say "stop, i can't breathe" .....................you can breathe....maybe not comfortably....and possibly not for much longer, but you can breathe...

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to umisprite)

Post #: 59

RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 1:40:57 PM

umisprite

Posts: 132
Joined: 6/16/2007
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Correct chellekitty but having to explain in detail that my breaths were getting shorter and shorter by the second and if kept in this position much longer was going to be detrimental to my well being would have taken much too long...so 'stop I can't breathe' got the message across instantly. Sometimes STOP just means stop and that's when trust and knowing your partner come in handy.

_____________________________

My mistakes are neither pretty nor little.

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Post #: 60

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