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RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 1:53:23 PM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		and if it were me, so would have yellow or red, which is all i am trying to say...i have 100% trust when i play using safe words because i know that my safe words will be honored...is that put simply enough?

< Message edited by chellekitty -- 9/19/2007 1:55:27 PM >

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to umisprite)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 2:01:10 PM   
umisprite


Posts: 132
Joined: 6/16/2007
Status: offline 		Yep, clear enough...whatever works. I was just relating my own personal experience to missturbation's original post.

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My mistakes are neither pretty nor little.

(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 3:57:56 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Without getting into the personal details, there are obviously things people do where the Dom/me cannot see injury.  I'm guessing you might agree that putting you both in possible legal peril and complete public embarassment from a trip to the ER would be a violation of trust greater than a safeword wouldn't you?

Hard limits to me are things I will not do or compromise on.  I don't do scat, pee, animals, permanent marks, cameras/pics (career reasons), or rape/age play of any type.  If you're saying you started out with hard limits but now trust him but don't have them, essentially what you are saying is you still have them, you won't compromise on everything (if you will this is a totally different matter for professionals, not us to discuss), but you trust him to not go beyond the hard limits we already have.

I will say this, I started out with a helluva lot more hard limits than I have now, how they are essentially things I absolutely will not try and find truly offensive or emotionally cannot do.  The reason is that after about a decade I finally have more faith in my ability to find someone that I know that I can trust in this wacky lifestyle :P

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 9/19/2007 3:58:56 PM >

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 4:49:12 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		greetings missturbation,

i have to agree with some of what you posted. in fact, it's been on my mind since i read a few pages of that horrendously long no limits thread. i have a hard time understanding limits and safewords because i can't imagine getting into a long-term relationship and begging a collar from someone i don't trust to the highest extreme. we have a "pausing" kind of safeword that he has mandated...not one that i choose to use, although it's there because he felt the need to put it there. usually if there is something wrong i just say so and he chooses whether or not to continue the action...beyond my giving him the information, it's out of my hands.

but i cannot imagine being in a committed relationship with someone with whom i needed limits. it just doesn't make sense to me. i can understand safewords for pausing play or using safewords instead of just straight up communicating that something is wrong in the midst of play (and of course i understand limits and safewords when playing with someone you are not in a long-term relationship with), but i absolutely don't get limits, if you implicitly/completely trust the person you are with...and if you don't implicitly/completely trust the person you are with, WHY would you wear their collar?

i think compatibility also plays a huge part in it. i chose to get involved with someone who i knew values my education and life choices and gives me freedom to pursue those. now, if he one day told me i had to drop out of school and serve him all day, every day, or i had to move across the country and never go to the graduate school i would like to get into, i'd absolutely do it in a heartbeat because i trust him and my life is completely and totally in his hands. but i would not have put my life in his hands to begin with if i felt that we were incompatible in that way, if that makes any sense. i think it's something of a balancing act in that respect. obviously if i thought he was suffering from dementia i might put things on hold because if he told me to shoot myself while he was mentally impaired, and i did, he would be very upset with me for not using my critical thinking skills. but yes, if i knew that he was of sound mind and he ordered me to do something that was seriously impairing to my life or health, i would do it.

i am sure there are plenty of logical reasons why people do it, so i'd like to add a disclaimer by saying that what works for me obviously will not work for everyone, and there's probably lots of things i've never thought about...so please do not take this as me criticizing relationships that do have limits. it's more of a headscratch kind of thing for me than a judgment kind of thing.

respectfully,
annabelle.


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i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 6:28:31 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Unfortunately i had to go to work and therfore i now have a few replies to try and respond to. So please bear with what i am sure is going to be quite a long winded post.
 
Bobkgin - I suggest the "limits" you speak of would be the ones imposed by you.
The "limits" imposed by your master would be a different story?
I'm a little unsure what you are actually asking here. I have not imposed any limits and Sir hasnt either. Oh sorry yes he has, he doesnt want to eat my bogies lol.
************************************************************
Breathasone - I respectfully disagee with the statement you made that i highlighted in red...for me personally
As i knew some people would.
***************************************************************
Driver - Yes Bob and to the others, you fail to understand missturbation.  She is concerned about her 'judgementalism' on others and is trying to come to terms with understanding others (including yourselves).   Putting in one liners based upon what your experiences are without explaining your perspectives (which she has tried of herself) offer no insight to her.  In doing so - you only judge her.  
Thankyou
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Solarandviolet - See... I have a problem here with your statements misstrubation. I don't mean to offend you, but from what you've said here, makes me believe that you will not be capable of understanding what you are trying so hard to understand.
 
You may well be right but at least i am trying. Looks to me from your post you have made no attempt to understand me.
 
You state that you don't know where your limits lie and therefore have none. That's all fine, for you. Others know their preferences and limits and state them clearly from the start.
 
You misunderstand my post, this is not about people choosing to have limits or not. Its about the level of trust you have in your partner if you choose to put limits in place.
 
As far as safewords, several people have stated and I agree. (And we had that conversation just last night) My Sir is not 100% perfect. As successful as he's always been to notice the right time to stop, he is human and will make mistakes.
 
I agree and i stated accidents happen.
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Camille65 - What I am reading, is that misst doesn't use safewords when something goes wrong. She simply states the actual problem.
Instead of 'STOP' she says 'Master the restraints are too tight!'
In regards to the trust bit, I think I understand. If I had to use a code word for help wouldn't that be like saying I could not say 'Master bad pain please stop'.
I don't have a safeword with my dom, I just tell him whats going on/going wrong.
Yes and then He chooses what action to take.
*************************************************************
celticlord2112 - How far does your master trust you?
Well you would have to ask Him that but my guess would be implicitly as i trust Him.
*************************************************************
Aquaticsub - That makes no sense to me. You won't die for him - that is a limit. I won't let Valyraen bite into my juglar with his fangs - that is a limit.

Limits, in my opinion, have very little to do with trust. They are simply what you will and will not do.
Actually i have already stated that i do not know my limits and cannot say that i would ever say i would die for Him or not.
For you they have very little to do with trust, for me they have everything to do with trust.
However this thread isnt about whether they are or are not linked with it, but about understanding why they are not linked to trust for others.
*************************************************************8
Driver1961 - Now Missturbation if I represent you wrongly her I apologise.
You represent me pretty well Driver, thank you
************************************************************
Thank you to everyone else who responded. If i havent replied to your post it is because i understand what you are saying or have no question on wha you said. I wasnt ignoring your replies.
 



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What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 7:00:26 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Aquaticsub - That makes no sense to me. You won't die for him - that is a limit. I won't let Valyraen bite into my juglar with his fangs - that is a limit.

Limits, in my opinion, have very little to do with trust. They are simply what you will and will not do.
Actually i have already stated that i do not know my limits and cannot say that i would ever say i would die for Him or not.
For you they have very little to do with trust, for me they have everything to do with trust.
However this thread isnt about whether they are or are not linked with it, but about understanding why they are not linked to trust for others.


For me, they really are just a tool. Are you not trusting your dominant when you insist that there be a first aide kit nearby? I would laugh if someone told me I wasn't trusting Valyraen because we keep one by the bed. So what's another tool? Another set of back up plans? I don't want to have to articulate what is going on when trouble hits, I want to say a word and have everything stop and him back away.

I still have to trust him to stop. It really isn't any different than saying no. It's just a different word. You say no or stop. I say tomato. I really don't see a difference. Either way, you stopped the scene with a word that you had to trust them to respect.

As for limits themselves... really don't have a lot. He can't bite into my juglar and he can't put ice on me (allergic reactions to the cold). That's about it so I'm not buying the whole "lack of trust in him" thing.

'Sides, I'm starting to think it takes more trust to do things our way, at least for the dominant. If I had a mind to and a tape recorder, our way could get him in a lot of trouble. Fortunately, his trust in me is not misplaced.

As always... my .02

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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(in reply to missturbation)
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RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 7:54:10 PM   
SolarAndViolet


Posts: 85
Joined: 8/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation


***************************************************************
Solarandviolet - See... I have a problem here with your statements misstrubation. I don't mean to offend you, but from what you've said here, makes me believe that you will not be capable of understanding what you are trying so hard to understand.

You may well be right but at least i am trying. Looks to me from your post you have made no attempt to understand me.

You state that you don't know where your limits lie and therefore have none. That's all fine, for you. Others know their preferences and limits and state them clearly from the start.

You misunderstand my post, this is not about people choosing to have limits or not. Its about the level of trust you have in your partner if you choose to put limits in place.

As far as safewords, several people have stated and I agree. (And we had that conversation just last night) My Sir is not 100% perfect. As successful as he's always been to notice the right time to stop, he is human and will make mistakes.

I agree and i stated accidents happen.
**************************************************************



First I'd like to apologize if I came off sounding like I'm judging you. I was just being blunt. I do applaud you for trying to understand this aspect. But I think we are both having trouble understanding.

What I don't get is how you equate having limits, which are nothing more than human preferences in things they do or don't enjoy, things that turn them off, to lacking trust. My Dom will not know things that scare me or turn me off unless I tell him, and those are my limits. I'm not into playing with kids, that's my limit. I'm not into golden showers, that is my limit. Just to name a couple. I tell them to Master once and he agrees with them. From that moment on, he knows them. I trust him completely to uphold our agreement and trust him completely not to harm me.

So I'm not sure how having limits makes one have less trust in their Dom(me) than those without limits, so to speak.

If I'm really not understanding what you mean, I'm sorry, but that's how your question (OP) sounded to me.

'violet'

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Happy to be owned by Sir (V) (violetaelf)

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 7:56:16 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		I am curious.  How do you define trust?

I get the sense we are talking across each other.


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(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 9:41:12 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		"I completely trust my partner" is not at all the same statement as "I completely trust my partner to be omnipotent and omniscient and omnibenevolent."

I trust my partner- to be late almost all the time.

I trust my partner- to never have his cell phone on when I really need to call.

I trust my partner- to always feel guilt before anything has happened.

My limits have nothing to do with anyone BUT ME.  I have a limit on becoming pregnant right now, or at least giving birth.  How does that have anything to do with trusting anyone?  I can't trust sperm to NOT join with an egg. 

I think when people try to MAKE limits about trust that you get into issues.  I think when people try to use the term trust as an absolute you get into issues.

I do neither, and it seems to work great.

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 10:19:16 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
.
I guess it boils down for me to the question 'If you trust your partner 100% why do you need limits / safewords?'

I trust my Master to 100% of the time make the best decisions and judgments that he can, and that 95% of the time he's spot on target and about 5% of the time he might actually make an error, you know, being human and all.  I accept this as part of my slavery and of his Mastery over me.  Therefore when an error does occur, I've already accepted it, I know he was using his best judgment and intentions, I recover from it, and I move on. 

Re: Limits and safewords, they do not exist in my slavery to him.

If something is ailing me during his use of me that is so severe that I would need to call his attention to it, my mind shoots straight to the problem and I scream it out.  Once I thought my ankle was breaking, and before I was even aware of doing it, I was screaming "ankle!" repeatedly.  It was then up to him whether or not he wanted to pull back, stop, or keep going.  As it was, he adjusted just enough for my ankle to get some relief, but did not stop what he was doing.  All is fine and my ankle did not break.   Other times he has read me so well that even as he sensed I was responding negatively, he immediately changed what he was doing, or in a couple of cases, stopped post-haste, pulled my face right to his and said "Talk to me.  What's going on in your head right now?"

So yes, I trust him implicitely to read me accurately and make the right decisions for the situation.


quote:


Does this not show a lack of trust?

In my slavery to him, it would show a lack of trust and a lack of complete dominance and control over me.  This is not the case for everyone.  It is the case for us.  These things just aren't necessary where we are concerned, and in fact, I prefer my slavery to be without them for many reasons, so I'm glad he never allowed limits or safe words.

quote:


And if you havent got 100% trust what have you got?
 

You have less than 100% and that's what you work with and build upon.  I did not have 100% trust when I began my journey with him.  I did trust him, but not 100%.  Maybe 80% and the rest was a leap of faith until I spent more time belonging to him. 

(in reply to missturbation)
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RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/19/2007 11:00:54 PM   
ProlificNeeds


Posts: 1061
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
And if you havent got 100% trust what have you got?
 


A work in progress.

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 4:41:22 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

See i can understand that use of a safe word, but to clarify i think i am looking more towards the stop play safe word, not the pause kind of safe word.


I can understand any use of it; it's just formalized communication.

But the protocol I prefer to use is fairly simple:

"Red" means a medical emergency has happened, is happening, or will happen.
"Pink" means something should be checked soon, or (where used) a pause is needed.
"Stop" usually means "I hope you're enjoying this, because I'm not".
"My name is so-and-so, and I'm okay" means "Dang, I made it!"

Yes, the last one was a joke.

Oh, and for session play, "red" also means "I withdraw consent now".

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 4:42:35 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

But they get used for other reasons as well-such as fear.


Which, unless we're talking about a panic attack, can mean "keep going" in some cases.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 4:43:58 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

So I tell him, or use a gesture so he will remove the gag and then tell him. And then he fixes the problem and we go on if we can and stop if we can't. Here it just means there's a problem.


That's what I use the intermediate code for. "Pink" is good; simpler than "yellow".

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 6:30:44 AM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline 		If I meet a dominant for the first time today after just chatting online for a couple of week, there is no way I could go around saying I would trust that person 100% , trust is something that is built upon and grows with time spent together , so initially limits are set as what you will agree or not agree to do with that person , it could be something as simple as not playing a scene on the first day you meet that person  but it is still a limit, to allow that person, whom you do not know well  to do whatever they want to with you without any  limits at all would be insane, as u get to know the person better and trust starts developing you start allowing more, but it is something that grows,  you may not spell out and entire written list of what you wil agree or not agree to do as far as limits go with each progressive date, some may be stated orally  and other limits may be more subtely indicated by body language but they still exist.

So say you have no limits but I am sure you do, it just may not be necessary for you to express  them with your current dom.

If your dom decided tomorrow to pimp you out, would you agree? 
if your dom want to have a dog penetrate you, would you agree?
would you allow your dom to brand you , shave your head, defecate, urinate  on you  etc?
If you would say no to any of the above they are in fact limits, there are some doms that enjoy these activities, a sub may say they do not enjoy,   that  becomes a limit.  Just because you say you do not enjoy doing one or more of the above activities  has nothing to do with trusting the master, where the trust is formed by your saying  is when the dom respects your hard  limits and does not force you to do what you are not comfortable or ready for

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 6:33:03 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		For me, they really are just a tool. Are you not trusting your dominant when you insist that there be a first aide kit nearby?
Ok them being a tool a tool i can understand. Yes i trust my dominant to have a first aid kit nearby. Have i ever asked Him if there is one nearby? No!! I trust Him to not have to ask or know it is nearby.
 
As for limits themselves... really don't have a lot. He can't bite into my juglar and he can't put ice on me (allergic reactions to the cold). That's about it so I'm not buying the whole "lack of trust in him" thing.
See this is where i have the trouble understanding. By having to say 'you cannot bite into my jugular with your fangs' you are saying (in my opinion) 'i don't trust you not to unless i say something'.
 
'Sides, I'm starting to think it takes more trust to do things our way, at least for the dominant. If I had a mind to and a tape recorder, our way could get him in a lot of trouble. Fortunately, his trust in me is not misplaced.
With respect i don't see that at all. If i had a tape recorder i could get Sir in all sorts of trouble too. Either way you look at that one i really think there is no difference.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 6:49:29 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		First I'd like to apologize if I came off sounding like I'm judging you. I was just being blunt. I do applaud you for trying to understand this aspect. But I think we are both having trouble understanding.
No apology needed hun. Im getting a little frustrated if im honest as im not finding anything to understand really here and am still finding i cant stop the judgement.
What I don't get is how you equate having limits, which are nothing more than human preferences in things they do or don't enjoy, things that turn them off, to lacking trust.
See for me i am required to do things i may not enjoy. If i said to Sir 'i really don't like anal very much' (i do but just an example) He would laugh at me and say 'well i do so tough'.
So for me in that case refusing to do things you dont enjoy doesnt show lack of trust. That one for me is a whole different ball game which i wont get into here.
 
So I'm not sure how having limits makes one have less trust in their Dom(me) than those without limits, so to speak.

If I'm really not understanding what you mean, I'm sorry, but that's how your question (OP) sounded to me.
I'm going to attempt to explain a little better but im not sure if i will suceed (fingers crossed).
By having to say to Sir 'i will not do (insert words of your choice)' i feel that you are showing a lack of trust in Him not to do those things. For example Aquatics 'you cannot bite into my jugular with your fangs'. By having to say that she in my mind is saying 'i do not trust you to not do something that could be quite consequential to my health.'
 
I intrinsically trust that if Sir gets His knives out that He will not cut me to the bone. I do not feel the need to say 'please don't cause me serious or permanent harm with the knife Sir'. We have spoken about the use of knives and how much i like them and that i would probably have no limit with them, they really are my thing. That does not mean though that i now think Sir would cut me to the point of serious harm because i have said i wouldnt bat an eyelid.  
 

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to SolarAndViolet)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 6:59:33 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I am curious.  How do you define trust?

I get the sense we are talking across each other.



If i have to get any sort of reassurance from Sir, for example 'please dont cut me too deep with that knife' i am not trusting him.
If i have to say 'please do not ever ..................' i am not trusting Sir.
If i say to Sir as i did when we first met 'i have asthma' then leave it at that, i am trusting Sir to be careful around anything to do with breathing. I did not feel the need when He first gagged me to say 'please dont leave me in this too long as i have asthma.' I did not feel the need to limit His play in this area either.
When i told Sir about other experiences that may effect play in one way or another i did not put limits on those kinds of play. i trusted Him to push me in those areas when the time was right.
In other words i gave Him all the info He needed and then put my complete trust in Him to be aware of them and make the decisions that were right for us.
That to me is showing trust in Him.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:03:51 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		"I completely trust my partner" is not at all the same statement as "I completely trust my partner to be omnipotent and omniscient and omnibenevolent."
I have never stated my partner is any of those things, mistakes get made but im prepared to accept that.
I have a limit on becoming pregnant right now, or at least giving birth.  How does that have anything to do with trusting anyone? 
See for me in this case i have talked with Sir about having children and He is aware i dont want anymore. Do i feel the need to make it a limit? No!! I trust Him from the discussion we had not to impregnate me.
I think when people try to MAKE limits about trust that you get into issues.  I think when people try to use the term trust as an absolute you get into issues.
For me limits are about trust. If you say to your partner i have a limit on anal you would expect to be able to trust him to respect that limit wouldnt you?


_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: I'm being judgemental - apologies !! - 9/20/2007 7:04:51 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ProlificNeeds

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
And if you havent got 100% trust what have you got?
 


A work in progress.


_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to ProlificNeeds)
Profile   Post #: 80
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