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RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 4:36:43 PM

kyraofMists

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~ Fast Reply

This reminds me of a similar incident that happened where I live when I was in college. Racially motivated attack, several boys punching and kicking one. The difference is that the one did not live. They were just being normal high school kids getting into a fight. I don't think they thought they would spend the rest of their life in prison for just doing what most high school kids do.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 121

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 4:47:07 PM

julietsierra

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Joined: 9/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

This whole thing is pretty sad really. Most high school students - boys and girls - at one point, whether in their neighborhoods, basements or school grounds, end up in at least one fight in their high school lives. Everything perceived hurt and insult is superficial to a teen
.

Things change - The PC police have already removed 'money bars', games of 'tag', and 'dodge-ball' in many locals. Parents have welcomed the nanny state and abdicated all responsibility to the state, in this case represented by the school.

Sure, fights still happen, but with this result? http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070919/480/7b4a6f668d1d457bb9a96cc57fc23abd
With 6 beating and kicking one?

Seems a bit more than a ripped shirt and skinned knee. But there has been no judgment only arrest and if I've read correctly, 25 years is not even on the table for any of the participants.

But this is the US, so I'm sure the civil litigation attorneys are lining up. They may not spend 25 years in prison but they have a good chance of working 'life' to pay off the resulting civil suit judgment.

lol...the PC police as you call them may have recognized that dodge ball is inherently discriminatory in the years following the passing of IDEA, wherein those of lesser physical and cognitive capabilities were mainstreamed into regular classrooms (including physical education) and found to be the regular targets of the participants on the other team, but I seriously doubt that the PC police can actually legislate development to the point where the reactions of a teen wouldn't still exist with all their feelings on the surface. In fact, I'm pretty sure the PC police as you call them can't regulate maturity, no matter how hard they try.

In our school, we try all the time. We have a zero tolerance rule in place, social workers and counselors and time after time after time, we continue to deal with percieved insults and accusations and the anger and hurt that they cause. From time to time (5 times last year to be precise), we also deal with fights that involve two or more students jumping one student. The fact is, it's less a preconceived plan than it is a high school tendency of gathering friends together to be on "my side" verses "your side" and the resulting chaos that ensues when that happens.

Last year, in an attempt to break up a fight between some girls, one of our teachers was hurt. Police were called. The girls were taken away until their parents could pick them up at the police station. They were expelled. Neither the girls' families, the teacher or the school pressed charges. It was a school fight. The girls found their way in to other schools and away from each other as well as away from our school. They have all since graduated and moved on in their lives. All are attending college.

While in school, they had all been getting help but one thing led to another and quite like flash paper, what was talk became a fight that involved 5 girls jumping on one. And yes, the one girl's face looked much like that boy's face, including a torn ear where her earring was pulled out and a cut running down her face from her ear to her chin. The wounds looked horrible at the time. She healed and there were no scars. Showing me yet another photograph of the boy doesn't convince me in the least that what happened was any different than what I see in any given year.

I've seen girls pull the weave right out of their opponents head and wave it around like it was a scalp. I've seen a boy and his friends jump someone that dared to call his friend - a girl, but with no relationship ties - a "ho." In each of those instances, no calculations were made on the part of the people doing the attacking regarding the ability to hit their opponent 5 times, not 6 because of some ridiculous idea that 6 times is the magic number or something like that. In fact, when I questioned the boy who led the jumping, because of the other boy's "ho" comments, he simply shrugged and said "he won't be insulting my friend again. Next time, he'll remember that just because she's smaller than he is, he will pay for what he says." In his world, there are consequences. When I reminded him he could have been arrested, his reaction was to shrug and say that at least he won't say that stuff about her again."

Sometimes it's difficult for us to remember what life was like in our high school years. More often than not, we remember high school as being someplace calm and "golden." However, it wasn't like that back then and it isn't like that now.

If the girls in my school had been charged for their school fight, they'd have lost their scholarships (yep, all were "good" students). They'd have been unable to go on to college and they'd have become yet some more underachievers. As it is, all the girls involved, from what I hear from their friends, are doing well and have plans for their futures that don't involve jumping others. More often than not, what happened to them in high school, while definitely not appropriate, and even more definitely, violent, was simply a high school thing and they've grown up and out of that tendency to fight at the drop of a hat.

We'll never know with Mychal Bell now, will we? Nearly a year in prison, his scholarship gone, and his future in shambles... yes, of course he should have made better choices. But so should the adults involved in this case. They were the adults for goodness sake. The bottom line was not that the kid sat under the tree. It was not that the kid that was beat up threw insults around. It was that the adults in this case just could NOT stand the idea of the minority culture in that small town being so "uppity" as to presume equality with his white peers and by god, that had to be stopped. Mychal Bell was made an example of. And just like the people in authority who used to warn the black community whenever "the boys" were up in arms verses doing anything to stop them as they found someone to lynch as an example to others, these adults could have done a darn better job than they did.

Mychal Bell and his cohorts may have jumped someone. That boy had some injuries to his face. None of those injuries were so debilitating that he couldn't attend a party that same evening. This was a school fight that was blown out of proportion and what the hell if some black kids' lives were ruined in the process.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 9/21/2007 5:02:19 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 122

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 4:52:37 PM

julietsierra

Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

~ Fast Reply

This reminds me of a similar incident that happened where I live when I was in college. Racially motivated attack, several boys punching and kicking one. The difference is that the one did not live. They were just being normal high school kids getting into a fight. I don't think they thought they would spend the rest of their life in prison for just doing what most high school kids do.

Knight's Kyra

I'm sure they didn't. However, the difference is that in their case, the person they jumped died, and in this case, the person that was jumped attended a party later that evening.

juliet

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 123

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 4:58:40 PM

slaveluci

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
a fucking Cracker on the school board

Racism in action, exhibit 1

. One could never get away with saying a fucking "nigger" on the school board, but "cracker" is fine? Absolutely retarded.............luci

Edited to add: Just wanted to add that this is, in my opinion, at the root of why racial problems continue. People who espouse themselves as so anti-racist who really ARE racist, just against another group. Someone who would never let the dreaded "N" word sully their mouths spew out words like "cracker" and "white trash" like they were pearls of wisdom. As I say on every thread of this nature, racism and bigotry goes both ways. You can't act like you want racism stamped out while at the same time perpetuating it's ugly language against a different group of your choosing. All racist language is disgusting, not just choice words..........luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 9/21/2007 5:10:39 PM >

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Post #: 124

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 5:00:31 PM

kyraofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra
I'm sure they didn't. However, the difference is that in their case, the person they jumped died, and in this case, the person that was jumped attended a party later that evening.

juliet

Do you think the government should wait until someone dies before they start prosecuting people for punching and kicking someone against their will?

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to julietsierra)

Post #: 125

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 5:02:58 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Neither the girls' families, the teacher or the school pressed charges.

But is was their prerogative to do so agreed? The young man and/or his family made a different decision in this case. Would you remove his choice as IDEA removed dodge-ball because obviously his "lesser physical and cognitive capabilities may have been contributory to his injuries.

quote:

None of those injuries were so debilitating that he couldn't attend a party that same evening.

If the reports are accurate he went to a party where he couldn't see too well since he can't see well now - one year later; but agreed - he went.

quote:

This was a school fight that was blown out of proportion and what the hell if some black kids' lives were ruined in the process.

You know if the reference were to some kids instead of "some black kids'" you may have convinced me you didn't have an agenda.

(in reply to julietsierra)

Post #: 126

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 5:04:38 PM

hisannabelle

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edited out.

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 9/21/2007 5:06:16 PM >

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Post #: 127

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 5:08:26 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

I'm sure they didn't. However, the difference is that in their case, the person they jumped died, and in this case, the person that was jumped attended a party later that evening.

juliet

You miss the point....... the risk of serious consequence of someone getting beat on by a group of individuals is very real and there is more than a few occasions that the person doesn't walk away. So.... the mob gets lucky that the individual doesn't die on them and they get a slap on the risk.... but if the fucker dies... they spend 20 + years in jail.

I don't agree that Attempt Murder is the right charge... since I believe it reasonable to assume that none actually attempt to kill the person. But the current assault charges on the books are not well suited to deal with mob/gang attacks where a person does walk away. It would do well to bring into the criminal codes punishements that recognize these mob/gang attacks and have serious penalty for those that get involve in them.

This incident is not just a thing that high school kids do... this is Mob/Gang activity in it's most raw form. Gang violence will continue to grow and negatively affect communities if there are no adequate actions against Mob/Gang incidents.

one on one... yeah.. assault just might be the right charge for the crime

six on one... well sorry assault is just not enough... the consequences for the victim goes sharply up the bigger the gang. But it still is not Attempted Murder.

There is a weakness in not having appropriate anti-gang/mob laws and punishments in cases of violent actions by groups of people

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 9/21/2007 5:56:06 PM >

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(in reply to julietsierra)

Post #: 128

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 5:10:00 PM

julietsierra

Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra
I'm sure they didn't. However, the difference is that in their case, the person they jumped died, and in this case, the person that was jumped attended a party later that evening.

juliet

Do you think the government should wait until someone dies before they start prosecuting people for punching and kicking someone against their will?

Knight's Kyra

I'm saying that one boy shouldn't have spent 11 months in jail for a high school fight. I'm saying that expulsion of all concerned would have stopped the process - from the noose to the jumping incident. I'm saying that adults should have more prudence than to take their racially motivated views and agendas out on a group of students - ANY group of students. And I'm saying that it shouldn't have taken another court to throw out a conviction of a teen who was charged, and tried as an adult and awaiting sentencing - as an adult for a juvenile situation. It shouldn't have taken the "threat" of a protest march to get the courts to move on this. It shouldn't have gotten to the point where one segment of that community was singled out for harsh treatment by the judicial system there while another segment of that community received nothing more than the "punishment" of having to attend school as usual, but sit in a room designated "in-school-suspension" while they still did all the work they'd been assigned and were able to continue on in their lives with little or no consequences.

juliet

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 129

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 5:17:53 PM

Sinergy

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Thank you for the rant, Mercnbeth.

A prosecutor determines what charge to file against somebody based on the likelihood of getting a conviction on that charge, and to a lesser extent the likelihood the defendant will be willing to plea bargain to a lesser charge.

I could go into the physics of a blow to the skull, as well as the medical outcomes from it, but I doubt you or anybody else wants to hear it.

Whether or not a punch could kill somebody has some relevance, except you have to convince a jury of yahoos like, say, you, that a punch could kill somebody while dealing with the 6 defendants testifying that they did not hit the person that hard.

Whereas if you file 2nd degree murder charges, plead it down to a lesser charge, send them to prison, is a workable approach to prosecution. In other words, OJ got off in front of a jury.

Sinergy

p.s. From what I understand, they knocked him out with a punch and then continued to kick and beat the person when they were down. Exactly what charge do you propose would have been appropriate?

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(in reply to julietsierra)

Post #: 130

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 5:30:12 PM

julietsierra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Would you remove his choice as IDEA removed dodge-ball because obviously his "lesser physical and cognitive capabilities may have been contributory to his injuries.

quote:

This was a school fight that was blown out of proportion and what the hell if some black kids' lives were ruined in the process.
You know if the reference were to some kids instead of "some black kids'" you may have convinced me you didn't have an agenda.

Well, first of all, unless you have other information, it's simply your presumption that the boy who was beat up was somehow cognitively impaired and so under the perveyance of IDEA. Your comparison regarding PC police and dodge ball to a school fight was what I was alluding to with the comments regarding IDEA. It wasn't that it wasn't politically correct. It was that the school would be held liable and so changed their policies to protect themselves from a law suit.

Secondly, I wasn't the least bit concerned whether you thought I had an agenda or not. I absolutely DO have an agenda. My agenda is that judicial actions should not be determined by the color of a boy's skin and that consequences for criminal actions should be evenly applied. I simply do not see that that is the case in this situation. That's my biggest agenda. My second agenda is that once set, precedence holds no regard for color and that it's no small jump to see my son and his friends in the same situation, regardless of the pigmentation they carry. And for both those agendas, I'll believe as I do - regardless of pictures and all the knee-jerking that's going on.

juliet

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 131

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 7:45:29 PM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

the black lads are the first to take the law into their own hands by assaulting a white lad, and it is assumed they were trying to kill him in order to lock them up for 20-25 years.
NG,
Absolutely correct! These were educated HS young men who knew exactly how many kicks to the head a person can withstand without incurring permanent brain damage or death and counted each blow to make sure they didn't exceed it. Indeed the fact that there is only ongoing vision problems speaks to their ability and restraint.

The distraction argument of race here is similar to the 'racial' and/or ethnic distraction regarding illegal immigration. The illegal actions are discounted in the face of 'political correctness'; speaking to the weakness of the argument and the weakness of the integrity of those supporting the arguments.

Illegal Actions = Legal Consequence. Simple and racially and ethnically neutral. Why such a difficult concept?

Absolutely incorrect!

I`ve been teaching and training in karate for over 20 years.
I don`t know,and I don`t know anybody who knows, "exactly how many kicks to the head a person can withstand without incurring permanent brain damage or death".

I have to agree with you as a martial arts and self-defense instructor since the early 1980s. Soft tissue injuries, hematoma, weak arteries and veins, etc., can kill a person with one blow of limited force. Additionally, the comment that vision irregularities which may last the rest of this person's life being used to prove the restraint and good-nature of 6 people jumping 1 person ranks down (in terms of complete idiocy) there with giving weapons of mass destruction to the Iraqi insurgency as a solution to our invasion of Iraq to prevent them from getting
weapons of mass destruction.
Sinergy

Yup.
I`ve been knocked out cold,with one strike.

I also fell of a roof,splitting my scalp from my eyebrow to the top of my head(when the surgeon stitched me up,there was a half-dollar sized piece of flesh, missing. Gone).I had a concussion and two black eyes.But never even once got dizzy or light headed.

I`ve also, on many, many occasions, been mistakenly hit, during sparring or other practice. Sometimes it`ll leave a red mark,or nothing.Other times,just a little pop, will close down an eye,leaving a huge shiner.

In my book,no amount of kicks,or punches to head ,is right. If you hit someone in my class, even by mistake, you`re doing push-ups (in the corner), for the rest of the class.

Owner / Synergy -

DAMN! Thanks for the information. So a person can die or suffer very serious injury with only one blow! Who would have believed it?! ?

Guess "attempted murder" was an appropriate charge. I stand corrected and once again - THANKS!

How much injury is caused by viewing a rope hanging from a tree?

quote:

If you're going to lock someone up for 20-25 years, there's a heavy burden of proof, and your estimates and assumptions aren't good enough, Merc. It's an assault charge.
NG - I defer to the experts who say - one blow is enough to kill. Your argument is with them.

I'll leave the "idiocy" of equal distribution of weapons for another thread.

Owner / Synergy -

DAMN! Thanks for the information. So a person can die or suffer very serious injury with only one blow! Who would have believed it?! ?

Guess "attempted murder" was an appropriate charge. I stand corrected and once again - THANKS!

No.With your logic,every push,shove and punch,would bring an"attempted murder"charge.Ridiculous, isn`t strong enough a word.Get real...

How much injury is caused by viewing a rope hanging from a tree?

That was wittingly,or un-wittingly,the most bigoted thing I`ve read on a message board.

I guess spray painting Swastikas on Jewish temples, is no big deal either.And should only carry a "defacing property" charge,(a misdemeanor).

How much injury is caused by a little spray paint,Merc?

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 132

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 7:50:56 PM

deadbluebird

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[

No.With your logic,every push,shove and punch,would bring an"attempted murder"charge.Ridiculous, isn`t strong enough a word.Get real...

[/quote]

this case is not about just a "push" it is about a boy being knocked unconcious, laying on the ground, and six boys proceding to kick him in his head several times.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 133

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 8:04:53 PM

Owner59

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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: deadbluebird

[

No.With your logic,every push,shove and punch,would bring an"attempted murder"charge.Ridiculous, isn`t strong enough a word.Get real...

this case is not about just a "push" it is about a boy being knocked unconcious, laying on the ground, and six boys proceding to kick him in his head several times.

Read the whole page/thread,sweety.

I was talking about Merc`s logic, not the case itself.

Technically,a shove can kill.Do you want school kids charged w/ attempted murder,for that?With Merc`s logic,you would.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/21/2007 8:07:58 PM >

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Post #: 134

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 10:39:24 PM

Archer

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Again nobody seems to want to deal with the fact that once the victim is rendered unconcious by the first blow, the definition of a "fight" has been passed up and criminal battery at the least is appropriate. Add to this the gang nature of the attack, and the racial nature and you have something worthy of felony criminal charges at the very least.

Was the victim's race a significan motivating influence for the attack?
If so then why is this not filed as a Hate Crime, and subject to the enhanced panalties?
Was the noose incident something that required attention of authorities sure, however is it justification to escalate into a physical battery? I would say no.
This went WAY WAY WAY beyond a simple battery.

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Post #: 135

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/21/2007 10:56:35 PM

deadbluebird

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Again nobody seems to want to deal with the fact that once the victim is rendered unconcious by the first blow, the definition of a "fight" has been passed up and criminal battery at the least is appropriate. Add to this the gang nature of the attack, and the racial nature and you have something worthy of felony criminal charges at the very least.

Was the victim's race a significan motivating influence for the attack?
If so then why is this not filed as a Hate Crime, and subject to the enhanced panalties?
Was the noose incident something that required attention of authorities sure, however is it justification to escalate into a physical battery? I would say no.
This went WAY WAY WAY beyond a simple battery.

well said.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 136

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/22/2007 12:01:59 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

And if black kids hung up something that has historically been a symbol of terrorism toward white kids, would you be as nonchalante regarding their actions?

juliet

'Interesting to see that no one has addressed this question; one possible conclusion is that personal taste shapes opinions on when and where to apply the rule of law and mob rule.

These lads should be charged with an offence; in my mind, there's no question. Mob rule is not civilised, but then neither is hanging a noose from a tree. It's fair to say that this will be the catalyst for a tit-for-tat cycle of insults and threats which will eventually lead to violence. This isn't about "offending someone's feelings"; you offend someone's feelings when you call them overweight, or you're rude to them: evoking memories of lynchings, hangings and second class status is on another level altogther. Can it possibly get more inflammatory?, and when those in a position of power pass it off as a prank, then I can understand why the black lads have no faith in the authorities, and decide to take matters into their own hands. The only possible conclusion, in my mind, is that a system is in place designed to keep a certain group of people firmly in their station i.e. down the pecking order, and until the balance is redressed, then these lads will continue to fight back outside of the rule of law - history provides strong evidence to support that point.

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Post #: 137

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/22/2007 12:13:12 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Again nobody seems to want to deal with the fact that once the victim is rendered unconcious by the first blow, the definition of a "fight" has been passed up and criminal battery at the least is appropriate. Add to this the gang nature of the attack, and the racial nature and you have something worthy of felony criminal charges at the very least.

a) Who decided when the lad was sparked out? The lad himself, the other lads, or witnesses?

b) Assuming he was sparked out, would the other lads know he was unconscious? If I were on a jury, there'd be too much doubt for me to assume they knew he was unconscious from the first punch on. I'm guessing that most of us on this board have been involved in brawls at some point, and the heat of the moment is another matter altogether.

There is no way on this earth that you could be reasonably sure that these lads were trying to kill him. I think there are two issues here:

a) Race: I agree with JulietSierra that this is a sad case of the lads not getting a fair crack of the whip because of their skin colour.

b) Burden of proof: surely you can't lock someone up for 25 years on the grounds that "we assume they were trying to kill him"? There are far too many assumptions, doubts and estimates: basic human rights dictate that if you're going to lock someone up for a long time, then you're going to have to meet the heavy burden of proof, rather than ifs, buts and maybes.

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Post #: 138

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/22/2007 12:20:57 AM

SugarMyChurro

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I don't think some of you understand institutionalized racism and violence against a minority group nor the inherent fear of being a member of that minority group. Context is everything in this story and it starts with the members of a minority group being told to keep their place and is punctuated with the majority group receiving different and favorable treatment for wrongdoing at every turn.

Many here want to punish the final actors for performing the final acts in a much longer string of racially motivated acts perpetrated against them.

The "white tree" was an abomination that could not stand. When the black kids tried to do something non-violent to point up the situation they received a tacit mortal threat as their reply. The white kids that had decorated the 'white tree" with lynching nooses received no more than a slap on the wrist.

[Digression: To my mind, an "in school suspension" is effectively no punishment at all. I had never heard of such a punishment before this story - when I was a kid you either kept the peace or were sent home on suspension or expulsion. This "in school suspension" is neither fish nor fowl and is utterly meaningless as a punishment.]

Having been intimidated with nooses, having taken a beating, having been threatened with a shotgun these black kids had to make their own justice because the authorities were turning a blind eye to their situation. In fact, the shotgun situation is one in which the black kids averted a true calamity in the making - but instead of being lauded as heroes they were charged with crimes. What explains that?

The final fall back position for these six black kids was this: You come at us and we will take the fight right back to you.

And that's exactly what some of you want to continue to turn a blind eye to: people that have to make their own kind of justice because the authorities turn away when minority members don't keep their proper place.

And again I am reminded of people like Malcolm X. Everything about X is non-controversial if he had been a white person. No one would have been the least surprised to find a white person asserting the right to even demand rights, to self-defense, the right to defend one's family and home. The problem with X is that he was perceived as the "field negro" demanding the rights of a free person - and that's just too shocking, isn't it? There's a black man refusing to keep his place!

But X was a free man. And we as a society no longer accept the status of "field negro" for any man.

Did the Jena 6 commit crimes? Place the story in it's proper context - the land of the "white tree" with nooses hanging from it - and then tell me that these kids do not deserve some special consideration.

(in reply to deadbluebird)

Post #: 139

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/22/2007 12:49:27 AM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline

Nothing to do with the thread and I dont care; but just out of interest who murdered Malcolm X?
Was it a white racist group or a black rival group ?
Only arskin'

I only threw this in because SugarmyChurro presents Malcolm as a bit of a charmer. In other words seeing what he wants to see, a bit like those in this thread who want soft option treatment because those charged are black.

Having said that I do agree that a 20/25 year sentence is excessive. But....they haven't got it yet have they ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/22/2007 1:00:55 AM >

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 140

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