quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Are you implying that anyone not blindly supporting the GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL is an Islamic Extremist?

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

There was never any problem between Muslims and Jews and not that much between the Arabs and Jews of Trans-Jordania before the zionist terrorists were on the scene.

Historically, there have been problems between Islam any group of people unfortunate enough to have been in its way. They've not become the biggest population on the earth through peaceful means, you know. It's just a historical fact. But you're avoiding my question. After you give them Israel, who or what will you give Muslim extremists next "in the name of peace"

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Since it was zionist terrorism that was the root of the problem in Palestine and western interference and double dealing else where in the middle east that created muslim extremism, I think you have some gall to say your question hasn't been answered. Israel is allowed to daily terrorize Palestinians because they have US backing and US weapons. Thousands of Iraqis die each month because the US invasion and occupation. Iran is in the styate it is because the US and the UK overthrew a democratic government and the US supported a brutal oppressive regime. If there are any extremists in the middle east, they are American or American backed extremists.

As for getting rid of Israel, no one has said it should be got rid and if the Israelis hadn't and didn't steal property and land and terrorize the occupied population of Arabs there would be a chance of peace. However the USA is happy to bank roll the Israelis to have a secure foot in the middle east and be in a position to steal other peoples oil.

As I have said, the real extremists in the middle east have been western. It is the USA and its western lapdogs that have troops in other people's countries, not the Arabs or the Iranians.

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

No, Muslim extremists have been around as long as Islam has. And as far as your lamenting Israel's existence goes, what about all the deals for peace that Muslim extremists violate on a daily basis. Your blaming it all on Jews smells like the barrel of rotten fish that it is. OF COURSE there are those who are talking about eliminating the Jewish state of Israel - who the hell are you trying to kid. That's what this whole thing has always been about, killing the Jews and the infidels. FIRST the Jews, and THEN anyone else who is in their way JUST LIKE IT HAS BEEN FOR CENTURIES.

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

And we're buying their oil, Meat. Nobody is stealing anyone's oil. In fact, we took oil riches from one of the worlds' wealthiest men who had palace after palace packed with golden toilets and we gave that immense oil wealth to the people who he owned like slaves, and the best thanks you can muster for that is the loudest shrillest yelp of pain that was ever heard in the history of the earth.

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

As for the Arabs and Iranians not having troops in other peoples' lands, how do you think they got the lands they have. And what about the Iran - Iraq war, and Iraq sacking, raping and killing Kuwait. What about 9/11, and Sudan, and the Barbary pirates, and and and and and.

In short, you are categorically wrong in everything you ever try to talk about! So why in the hell do you ever even try?

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


Am I "Standing Up" for him, or criticizing the US Propaganda Machine? I don't know anymore.

I think the whole manufactured outrage about the "holocaust denier" shit is pretty much the Adminstration's way of deflecting Adminijahad's very real valid criticism of US foreign policy.

Look, Bush LIED HIS WAY INTO IRAQ. So he's got ZERO CREDIBILITY. ZERO. He's been PROVEN to AT BEST, be a complete and total fuckup. At worst, he's a criminal. But in either case, how much crack do you need to smoke to give him another turn at-bat?

I don't bash "American Democracy". I bash the Criminals sitting in office in the Executive Branch, and their supporters.

You need to accept this one simple fact. The USA Can NEVER speak from the moral high-ground anymore. NEVER.

It has lost that privilege when it did shit like torture Padilla for 1300 days BEFORE giving him something sorta like "due process".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


Am I "Standing Up" for him, or criticizing the US Propaganda Machine? I don't know anymore.

I think the whole manufactured outrage about the "holocaust denier" shit is pretty much the Adminstration's way of deflecting Adminijahad's very real valid criticism of US foreign policy.

Look, Bush LIED HIS WAY INTO IRAQ. So he's got ZERO CREDIBILITY. ZERO. He's been PROVEN to AT BEST, be a complete and total fuckup. At worst, he's a criminal. But in either case, how much crack do you need to smoke to give him another turn at-bat?

I don't bash "American Democracy". I bash the Criminals sitting in office in the Executive Branch, and their supporters.

You need to accept this one simple fact. The USA Can NEVER speak from the moral high-ground anymore. NEVER.

It has lost that privilege when it did shit like torture Padilla for 1300 days BEFORE giving him something sorta like "due process".

So because Bush is a liar, anyone who disagrees with him on any subject is automatically correct?

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Even Holocaust deniers are right,

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and anyone who disagrees them (and by default agrees with Bush on the Holocaust) is 'manufacturing outrage'?

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Do you even think about what you write?

BTW...Given the obvious, that Bush is a lying TPOS, what do you think the heads of Iran, or any other country are?

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
What deals for peace? Israel has never offered a realistic peace deal.

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What Israel is doing in its annexation of the occupied lands and in its treatment of the occupied Palestinians is breaking just about every international law and every human rights law on the subject and is openly supported by the USA in breaking international and human rights laws. That how interested the USA is in the rule of international law. Every international organisation has spoken out about Israel flouting international law and committing human rights violations.

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Oh. On your idea that muslims have been trying to kill Jews for centuries....Total and utter bullshit. If you said Christians, you would be onto something.

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No you haven't. It is the US that is pushing the Iraqi parliament into privatising the oil industry and to give American companies lucrative contracts. Even the British at the height of the empire bought goods from their colonies, the idea is to get lucrative contracts that keep out the competition. The US is getting nervous because of the amount of oil it consumes and it is making enemies of most of the large oil producers and so needs sources it controls.

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Iraq has a legitimate claim over Kuwait that has been internationally recognized as a valid claim because Kuwait was originally a part of the province of the Ottoman province that makes up southern Iraq. The British turned Kuwait into a seperate country so a weak state Britain could control would be in control of a large quantity of oil.

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The Persians have been in Iran for probably more than 4,000 years.

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In fact the name Iran comes from the word Aryan which were indo-European people that moved there from central Asia around that time. The Iraqi Arabs are also a majority indigenous people too.

It is you that is wrong in everything you say and you increasingly show your ignorance of everything to do with the middle east. Including suggesting the Iranians want to liquidate all Jews. If they really did want that you would have thought they would have started with the historical Jewish community in their midst.

quote:


On the eve of the Islamic Revolution in 1979, 80,000 Jews lived in Iran. In the wake of the upheaval, tens of thousands of Jews, especially the wealthy, left the country, leaving behind vast amounts of property.

The Council of the Jewish Community, which was established after World War II, is the representative body of the community. The Jews also have a representative in parliament who is obligated by law to support Iranian foreign policy and its Anti-Zionist position.

Despite the official distinction between "Jews," "Zionists," and "Israel," the most common accusation the Jews encounter is that of maintaining contacts with Zionists. The Jewish community does enjoy a measure of religious freedom but is faced with constant suspicion of cooperating with the Zionist state and with "imperialistic America" — both such activities are punishable by death. Jews who apply for a passport to travel abroad must do so in a special bureau and are immediately put under surveillance. The government does not generally allow all members of a family to travel abroad at the same time to prevent Jewish emigration. Again, the Jews live under the status of dhimmi, with the restrictions im posed on religious minorities. Jewish leaders fear government reprisals if they draw attention to official mistreatment of their community.

Iran's official government-controlled media often issues anti-Semitic propaganda. A prime example is the government's publishing of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious Czarist forgery, in 1994 and 1999.2 Jews also suffer varying degrees of officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and public accommodations.3

The Islamization of the country has brought about strict control over Jewish educational institutions. Before the revolution, there were some 20 Jewish schools functioning throughout the country. In recent years, most of these have been closed down. In the remaining schools, Jewish principals have been replaced by Muslims. In Teheran there are still three schools in which Jewish pupils constitute a majority. The curriculum is Islamic, and Persian is forbidden as the language of instruction for Jewish studies. Special Hebrew lessons are conducted on Fridays by the Orthodox Otzar ha-Torah organization, which is responsible for Jewish religious education. Saturday is no longer officially recognized as the Jewish sabbath, and Jewish pupils are compelled to attend school on that day. There are three synagogues in Teheran, but since 1994, there has been no rabbi in Iran, and the bet din does not function. 4

Following the overthrow of the shah and the declaration of an Islamic state in 1979, Iran severed relations with Israel. The country has subsequently supported many of the Islamic terrorist organizations that target Jews and Israelis, particularly the Lebanon-based, Hezbollah. Nevertheless, Iran's Jewish community is the largest in the Middle East outside Israel.

On the eve of Passover in 1999, 13 Jews from Shiraz and Isfahan in southern Iran were arrested and accused of spying for Israel and the United States. Those arrested include a rabbi, a ritual slaughterer and teachers. In September 2000, an Iranian appeals court upheld a decision to imprison ten of the thirteen Jews accused of spying for Israel. In the appeals court, ten of the accused were found guilty of cooperating with Israel and were given prison terms ranging from two to nine years. Three of the accused were found innocent in the first trial.5 In March 2001, one of the imprisoned Jews was released, a second was freed in January 2002, the remaining eight were set free in late October 2002. The last five apparently were released on furlough for an indefinite period, leaving them vulnerable to future arrest. Three others were reportedly pardoned by Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.6

At least 13 Jews have been executed in Iran since the Islamic revolution 19 years ago, most of them for either religious reasons or their connection to Israel. For example, in May 1998, Jewish businessman Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh was hanged in prison without a public charge or legal proceeding, apparently for assisting Jews to emigrate.7

Today, Iran's Jewish population is the second argest in the Middle East, after Israel. Reports vary as the the condition and treatment of the small, tight-knit community, and the population of Iranian Jews can only be estimated due to the community's isolation from world Jewry.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


...Irrelevant. This is about how Bush gave up his credibility.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

What boggles my mind is that anyone does give anything he says credence. And many of those that do, would shit little golden apples if Bush or any other Republican said similar things about homosexuals, wiping a nation off the map, or advocated treating women like dirt.

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ORIGINAL: camille65

Actually I'm disappointed at how he was treated. Yes we all want to smush him under our shoes but.. I think it would have been much worse for him if he had hung himself out to dry without the excuse of being provoked.
That just gave him more credence to those that believe him. He would have done it to himself given a few minutes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

What boggles my mind is that anyone does give anything he says credence. And many of those that do, would shit little golden apples if Bush or any other Republican said similar things about homosexuals, wiping a nation off the map, or advocated treating women like dirt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Since it was zionist terrorism that was the root of the problem in Palestine and western interference and double dealing else where in the middle east that created muslim extremism, I think you have some gall to say your question hasn't been answered. Israel is allowed to daily terrorize Palestinians because they have US backing and US weapons. Thousands of Iraqis die each month because the US invasion and occupation. Iran is in the styate it is because the US and the UK overthrew a democratic government and the US supported a brutal oppressive regime. If there are any extremists in the middle east, they are American or American backed extremists.

As for getting rid of Israel, no one has said it should be got rid and if the Israelis hadn't and didn't steal property and land and terrorize the occupied population of Arabs there would be a chance of peace. However the USA is happy to bank roll the Israelis to have a secure foot in the middle east and be in a position to steal other peoples oil.

As I have said, the real extremists in the middle east have been western. It is the USA and its western lapdogs that have troops in other people's countries, not the Arabs or the Iranians.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

What boggles my mind is that anyone does give anything he says credence. And many of those that do, would shit little golden apples if Bush or any other Republican said similar things about homosexuals, wiping a nation off the map, or advocated treating women like dirt.

See what I said about the propaganda and dehumanization? That "wiping Israel off the map" bullshit again...

You know, the dominant thinking among myself and the other Jews I know is that the Government of Israel HAS TO GO because of all the bad faith in the past.

Of course, this is wholly acceptable, as the documentation for the process can be found in our Declaration of Independence.

OF COURSE, if you have an agenda, you would chose to mis-represent that statement out of context, wouldn't you?

A lie can be halfway around the world, before the truth has it's shoes tied...

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65


... My point was, that he should have had his messed-up sick and brutal side showcased without any verbal provocation from the audience or speakers.
Because that gave him something to react to.
The impact would have been greater (towards those that believe him, and there are those people) when calmly questioned had he said what he did. I firmly believe that he would have been his own worst enemy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

What boggles my mind is that anyone does give anything he says credence. And many of those that do, would shit little golden apples if Bush or any other Republican said similar things about homosexuals, wiping a nation off the map, or advocated treating women like dirt.

'I' don't give him credence Level. My point was, that he should have had his messed-up sick and brutal side showcased without any verbal provocation from the audience or speakers.
Because that gave him something to react to.
The impact would have been greater (towards those that believe him, and there are those people) when calmly questioned had he said what he did. I firmly believe that he would have been his own worst enemy.

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ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65


... My point was, that he should have had his messed-up sick and brutal side showcased without any verbal provocation from the audience or speakers.
Because that gave him something to react to.
The impact would have been greater (towards those that believe him, and there are those people) when calmly questioned had he said what he did. I firmly believe that he would have been his own worst enemy.

Thanks for clearing that up, and I'm sorry for misreading you.