RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive?

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camille65 -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 6:34:14 AM)
I don't know if I am the only one, but dang it is impossible to read that color/font. [8\|]

velvetears -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 6:40:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin In your relationship, disobedience is forgivable after you've been punished, so the relationship continues. So the value of obedience is diminished, because it isn't essential to keep your relationship going. My past slaves would not have seen obedience in that light. To them, it would have been far more important because the relationship depended upon it. With mine, they would have remembered to turn out the light. [;)] This sounds like emotional blackmail to me. To tell someone that once they disobey the relationship is ended is simply holding obedience over their heads. It would be like living under a dark cloud of doom. It also says - i want your submission without the work of being the dominant. i have to use some means to secure it so i am going to blackmail you into giving it to me ALWAYS - disobey and i end the relationship.

daddysprop247 -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 6:50:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin It is tempting to put myself in your world to answer your question, but the truth is, in my M/s, these situations would not arise. You don't need to apply yourself to obedience to the same degree as a slave of mine would, because your relationship does not hinge upon your obedience. In your relationship, disobedience is forgivable after you've been punished, so the relationship continues. So the value of obedience is diminished, because it isn't essential to keep your relationship going. My past slaves would not have seen obedience in that light. To them, it would have been far more important because the relationship depended upon it. With mine, they would have remembered to turn out the light. [;)] ah, lol...so any slave of yours would be perfect, never forgetful, never breaking a dish or overcooking food, never making a mistake of any sort, ever? i surely would love to meet such a person, perhaps she could give me a few pointers. also, you make quite a few false assumptions about my relationship. first, as i already stated, willful disobedience is not something i have ever been punished for, because i have never and would never willfully disobeyed my Master. it is not willful disobedience to forget to turn out a light, it was not something i have been ordered never to do, rather it is something like many other small things in life that common sense tells me should not been done. my Master does not expect perfection, he does not expect me to never make a mistake in life, when those things come along he will correct and punish me for it and we will move on. but he does expect obedience to his will, always. does our relationship hinge on my obedience? no, because then i would be the one in control of this ship. if i were consciously disobedient, my punishment would be very severe and forgiveness would be a long time in coming, but only he can release me, only he can terminate the relationship. i cannot release myself via disobedience or any other means.

Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:09:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin In your relationship, disobedience is forgivable after you've been punished, so the relationship continues. So the value of obedience is diminished, because it isn't essential to keep your relationship going. My past slaves would not have seen obedience in that light. To them, it would have been far more important because the relationship depended upon it. With mine, they would have remembered to turn out the light. [;)] This sounds like emotional blackmail to me. To tell someone that once they disobey the relationship is ended is simply holding obedience over their heads. It would be like living under a dark cloud of doom. It also says - i want your submission without the work of being the dominant. i have to use some means to secure it so i am going to blackmail you into giving it to me ALWAYS - disobey and i end the relationship. I suppose for those who find obedience difficult if not impossible, that must be the way it appears. They would be wise to pick someone else. Those who have asked me to be their master, and have served as my slaves, did not find it so difficult. But as I see it, this could only be viewed as "blackmail" if an M/s relationship with me was so desirable they'd do anything to avoid losing it. Personally I have to wonder how valuable a relationship is with someone who makes an empty promise (of obedience or any other kind of promise) with no intention of keeping it. Surprising how many sub/slaves have come forth arguing that just because they make a promise to be obedient doesn't mean they should be expected to keep it. How many other sub/slaves believe their broken promises should be respected as if they'd kept their vows?

sublizzie -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:15:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Surprising how many sub/slaves have come forth arguing that just because they make a promise to be obedient doesn't mean they should be expected to keep it. I have promised to try to be obedient. While I'm not in a one-on-one relationship, within the group dynamic I am in I am expected to try to do my best at all times. I have never willingly disobeyed. It's not in my nature. But there are times when I am not as perfect as I would like to be. Because I am trying to be that is accepted as worthwhile at the moment with the knowledge that I will try to be even better in the future. Just my thoughts........

DocRudy -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:18:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: winterlight die thread die die die! I'm not normally a supporter of euthanasia, but in the case of this thread, I'll make an exception. -DR

Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:31:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin It is tempting to put myself in your world to answer your question, but the truth is, in my M/s, these situations would not arise. You don't need to apply yourself to obedience to the same degree as a slave of mine would, because your relationship does not hinge upon your obedience. In your relationship, disobedience is forgivable after you've been punished, so the relationship continues. So the value of obedience is diminished, because it isn't essential to keep your relationship going. My past slaves would not have seen obedience in that light. To them, it would have been far more important because the relationship depended upon it. With mine, they would have remembered to turn out the light. [;)] ah, lol...so any slave of yours would be perfect, never forgetful, never breaking a dish or overcooking food, never making a mistake of any sort, ever? i surely would love to meet such a person, perhaps she could give me a few pointers. That's just silly, Prop. I do not give instructions to cook perfect meals, or to never chip dishes. My instructions are few, simple, and easily obeyed. In the example you gave, I assumed I'd have given an instruction to a slave to turn a light out when not in use. That is not an instruction I'd have given my slaves, but for the sake of your example, I assumed for some reason I would have and thus I know my past slaves would have done so. I fail to see how that leads anyone to assume they are perfect in every detail. quote: also, you make quite a few false assumptions about my relationship. first, as i already stated, willful disobedience is not something i have ever been punished for, because i have never and would never willfully disobeyed my Master. it is not willful disobedience to forget to turn out a light, it was not something i have been ordered never to do, rather it is something like many other small things in life that common sense tells me should not been done. my Master does not expect perfection, he does not expect me to never make a mistake in life, when those things come along he will correct and punish me for it and we will move on. but he does expect obedience to his will, always. does our relationship hinge on my obedience? no, because then i would be the one in control of this ship. if i were consciously disobedient, my punishment would be very severe and forgiveness would be a long time in coming, but only he can release me, only he can terminate the relationship. i cannot release myself via disobedience or any other means. So you are punished for things where you do not have orders from Daddy. Sounds almost whimsical. Had you told me you'd not been given an order to turn out the light in your example, my answer would have been different. For example, with my wife, I suggested we keep the thermostat no higher than a certain level. Had I come home from an errand and found it set higher, the first thing I'd have done would be to turn it back to where I felt it was appropriate, and ask my wife why it was set so high. I would have received a reasonable answer: she'd had a shower and found the house temperature too cool for her comfort and decided to set the temperature higher for a short time till she adjusted. I do not deny my slaves the freedom to use their best judgment in novel or unusual situations. Indeed, in some aspects of their lives they have a great deal of autonomy (family, friends, work). But they've acknowledged and respected that I am the final authority in their lives, and that if a situation develops which they can't handle they are to bring it to me. I limit my instructions (and thus my expectations of obedience) to those areas where obedience is essential and appropriate. I explain these instructions so that not only is the instruction understood, but the slave subscribes to the reason behind the instruction. I've no need for robots who malfunction. I need intelligent women who are capable of solving problems within the parameters given, even under difficult circumstances. I feel sorry for those d/ms who must constantly nag and punish their slaves for transgressions. In my M/s relationships transgressions are almost non-existent, despite the fact that the individuals involved are not perfect.

Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:38:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sublizzie quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Surprising how many sub/slaves have come forth arguing that just because they make a promise to be obedient doesn't mean they should be expected to keep it. I have promised to try to be obedient. While I'm not in a one-on-one relationship, within the group dynamic I am in I am expected to try to do my best at all times. I have never willingly disobeyed. It's not in my nature. But there are times when I am not as perfect as I would like to be. Because I am trying to be that is accepted as worthwhile at the moment with the knowledge that I will try to be even better in the future. Just my thoughts........ I can see how a group dynamic might lead to conflicting orders, thus your statements would make sense to me. In my relationships, I am the only authority, so there are no conflicting instructions. I also keep a lid on the number and complexity, so as not to create a situation where my slave cannot recall the instruction (and if she reaches that point, she is under instruction to seek clarification). I think this is getting overlooked in the effort to portray my expectations: that my slaves have almost always had the opportunity to check with me and seek clarification (and on the very few times when they couldn't, they were told to use their best judgment if a problem arose carrying out my instruction). I do not fault any slave who is careful enough to double-check with me if she is unsure.

Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:47:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DocRudy quote: ORIGINAL: winterlight die thread die die die! I'm not normally a supporter of euthanasia, but in the case of this thread, I'll make an exception. -DR And neither of you hold yourselves accountable for the threads you choose to read?

daddysprop247 -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:48:58 AM)
yes, i am punished for things beyond failing to follow orders he has set in place. this is because he considers me an intelligent adult, and expects me to have sound enough judgement to know that leaving a light on or overcooking food (something i have been punished for in the past btw) or many other small mistakes in life that most people make, is not the proper thing to do. rather than brush it off and say "eh well, everyone slips up sometimes," he acknowledges these mistakes and i am punished as further incentive to not repeat the same mistake again. this is all part of my growth as a slave...these types of punishments have helped teach me to be more careful, to manage my time more wisely, to stop and think before acting, to double-check myself, etc...all valuable lessons. in the example you gave about the thermostat, i likely would have been punished, because making a significant adjustment solely for my own comfort would be considered a selfish act and that is something he strongly discourages. but thank you for clarifying your stance re: obedience and instructions. however i would like to reiterate once more that punishment is not always about disobedience, as in the examples i have provided.

DocRudy -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:57:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin And neither of you hold yourselves accountable for the threads you choose to read? Just because I feel a thread should die does not indicate that I feel I've been forced to read it. I merely wish the thread to die... it's gone beyond its prime IMO and has ventured into the realm of redundant and tedious. That's all I should need to say about that, though I fully expect a rebuttal from you, Bob. At which point should such occur, I will sigh in disappointment. -DR

amiciaN -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:16:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: amiciaN I am no where close to perfectly obedient, though I give my all in every attempt, successful or not. And this is what your incredulity hinges upon (not to mention those above who mock the idea that anyone would expect a promise of obedience should be kept): if you can't do it, it can't be done. I was unaware that you (or they) were/are the paragons of near-perfection when it comes to obedience. I can understand that it comes as a shock to you that someone has a method of mastery that inspires obedience beyond your abilities to match. I think it sad that people who have promised to obey don't keep that promise. Even sadder if those who have promised to obey are making fun of anyone who keeps that promise. But to say it can't be done because -you- can't do it is the height of arrogance. It took a minute to get my chin up off of the floor there, Bob. Let me get this straight. You are claiming I am arrogant because I DON'T claim perfection???? WTF???? That has got to be one of the most absurd things I have ever heard stated. Here Bob: ar·ro·gant [image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif[/image] [image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif[/image] (ār'ə-gənt) Pronunciation Key adj. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others: an arrogant contempt for the weak. See Synonyms at proud. See especially definition number 2, particularly the example, because that is exactly what *you* have just done. I made no claim of superiority Bob, in fact, I did the opposite. I admitted to being human and fallible. I never intend to disobey, but yes, I am not perfect and thankfully I met NChaka, who is firmly planted in reality, not some delusion regarding the capabilities of human beings to reach perfection. What you have done here is avoid any actual point I made and attempt to discredit me by disparaging my character. Further more, you went so far as to disparage my Master, a Man you have no clue about whatsoever. I sincerely doubt that your deceased wife actually was perfect. She may have been perfect for you, but she was still human and therefore had faults, ones that you, in your grief, have chosen to deny existed. To say she had faults is not disparaging her character however, it is merely accepting her humanity, unlike what you have tried to imply about NChaka's character and His abilities as my Master. I have tried to engage you in a discussion, like many others here before me. When you don't like what I say yet have no actual way to refute it, you resort to attacking my character *AND* the character of a Person who is not a participant in this discussion and Who doesn't even post to these boards. It is childish, immature and irresponsible, in not only my opinion but those of my psych professor and every other mature, thinking person I have ever met. Calling someone arrogant because they admit to being less than perfect is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen.

Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:16:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 yes, i am punished for things beyond failing to follow orders he has set in place. this is because he considers me an intelligent adult, and expects me to have sound enough judgement to know that leaving a light on or overcooking food (something i have been punished for in the past btw) or many other small mistakes in life that most people make, is not the proper thing to do. rather than brush it off and say "eh well, everyone slips up sometimes," he acknowledges these mistakes and i am punished as further incentive to not repeat the same mistake again. this is all part of my growth as a slave...these types of punishments have helped teach me to be more careful, to manage my time more wisely, to stop and think before acting, to double-check myself, etc...all valuable lessons. hmm... I don't brush off mistakes, but neither do I punish for them. We talk, I educate, I ask her to explain the problems she is encountering and we address them. Very few mistakes were ever repeated. quote: in the example you gave about the thermostat, i likely would have been punished, because making a significant adjustment solely for my own comfort would be considered a selfish act and that is something he strongly discourages. I am more flexible than that. I've no objection to my slaves being comfortable, within certain parameters. If my wife had ignored my suggestions to keep the temperature set at a certain level, I'd have likely turned it into an instruction to ensure compliance. She knew I wouild, thus compliance with some lee-way resulted. Because she complied so often I knew that if the temperature was set wrong there'd be a reason for it. A lot of day to day life was handled in this way. My slaves learned to treat my suggestions and requests as instructions, but instructions where non-compliance was addressed constructively. I did not use suggestions and requests to handle essential matters (such matters were covered by instructions). But there is little in day-to-day life that is essential: safety, health and well-being were issues covered with instructions, as were issues regarding sex. quote: but thank you for clarifying your stance re: obedience and instructions. however i would like to reiterate once more that punishment is not always about disobedience, as in the examples i have provided. And I appreciate your clarification on this, Prop. Would you consider the punishment-driven slave to be "high maintenance"?

Aileen68 -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:20:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: amiciaN I have tried to engage you in a discussion, like many others here before me. When you don't like what I say yet have no actual way to refute it, you resort to attacking my character *AND* the character of a Person who is not a participant in this discussion and Who doesn't even post to these boards. It is childish, immature and irresponsible, in not only my opinion but those of my psych professor and every other mature, thinking person I have ever met. Calling someone arrogant because they admit to being less than perfect is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen. But...but...that's how things work in bobkgin land.

Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:27:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: amiciaN It took a minute to get my chin up off of the floor there, Bob... I'll leave it to the reader to review your contributions to this thread and identify the instances of hyperbole and histrionics, Amicia. It does seem to boil down in your mind to: if you can't do it, no one can. As I have real-life experience in several relationships where obedience was not a problem for the slaves, I can only tell you that you assumptions that no one can do it is wrong, and presumptious. I do wish people would engage with their intellect, and leave their egos behind.

domiguy -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:29:51 AM)
You and your kind are not welcome in Bobkgin Land.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:31:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy You and your kind are not welcome in Bobkgin Land. Is anyone welcome in Bobkgin land, but BOBble-head dolls?

Alumbrado -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:35:12 AM)
It is good to be King Bob.

domiguy -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:35:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy You and your kind are not welcome in Bobkgin Land. Is anyone welcome in Bobkgin land, but BOBble-head dolls? I have travelled from shore to shore of Bobkgin Land....It is a breathtaking country....Everyone pulls together and shares the same thoughts...Those that don't get with the program are blocked...(deported).

Aileen68 -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:37:07 AM)
As mayo.Or of the bobkgin City In the county of the land of O.oz I welcome you most regally (Judge) But we've got to verify it legally To see... (Mayo.Or) To see... (Judge) If she... (Mayo.Or) If she... (Judge) Is morally, ethically (bobkgin 1) Spiritually, physically (bobkgin 2) Positively, absolutely (bokgin Men) Undeniably and reliably perfect

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