RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive?

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Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 9:54:21 AM)
To the audience at large: Listening to the punishment advocates and hecklers, it is obvious that no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. But as I understand the punishment paradigm, mistakes are always punished, which in the case of some people would mean beaten. Now, if we are to take the advocates and the hecklers at their word, no one stops making mistakes. That means a life-time of punishment, which for some people means being beaten for the rest of their lives: for mistakes. Why is that preferable to a life where mistakes are addressed constructively/cooperatively by people who are both fully-invested in the health and happiness of an M/s relationship, where the only choice that leads to an ending is deliberate betrayal of trust?

susie -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 9:57:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin To the audience at large: Listening to the punishment advocates and hecklers, it is obvious that no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. But as I understand the punishment paradigm, mistakes are always punished, which in the case of some people would mean beaten. Now, if we are to take the advocates and the hecklers at their word, no one stops making mistakes. That means a life-time of punishment, which for some people means being beaten for the rest of their lives: for mistakes. Why is that preferable to a life where mistakes are addressed constructively/cooperatively by people who are both fully-invested in the health and happiness of an M/s relationship, where the only choice that leads to an ending is deliberate betrayal of trust? When are you going to understand that not everyone wants to do it your way. Some choose the life time of punishment because that is exactly what they want from the relationship. Is that really so hard for you to understand. Your way is not the right way for others. If you like it that way fine. Good luck with finding your perfect barbie doll submissive who never puts a foot wrong.

Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 10:01:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: susie Some choose the life time of punishment because that is exactly what they want from the relationship. And why do they want it that way? They have options. Why choose that one over any other?

Alumbrado -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 10:02:40 AM)
quote: Listening to the punishment advocates and hecklers, it is obvious that no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. But as I understand the punishment paradigm, mistakes are always punished, which in the case of some people would mean beaten. Now, if we are to take the advocates and the hecklers at their word, no one stops making mistakes. That means a life-time of punishment, which for some people means being beaten for the rest of their lives: for mistakes. Ooooohhh!! So anyone who heckles King Bob is an abuser...wonder how come none of us ever looked at it that way? Must be that pesky common sense and dealing with reality thing that King Bob doesn't let define him.

susie -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 10:05:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: susie Some choose the life time of punishment because that is exactly what they want from the relationship. And why do they want it that way? They have options. Why choose that one over any other? Because that is what they choose from their relationship. Nobody is forced to choose that way. What makes you choose yours. You think it is right for you. Well I think my way is right for me. I am happy, loved, cherished and owned by someone that cares deeply for me. Yes punishment is part of that relationship because it is something that WE both felt was the right thing for us. Punishment is not always as you see it, a beating. It take many forms but I always know that I am truly loved by him. I would see your way of removing yourself from the dynamic when things do not go your way as far more abusive than the way our relationship is. One thing he never does is withdraw from me in anyway.

Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 10:13:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: susie quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: susie Some choose the life time of punishment because that is exactly what they want from the relationship. And why do they want it that way? They have options. Why choose that one over any other? Because that is what they choose from their relationship. Nobody is forced to choose that way. What makes you choose yours. You think it is right for you. Well I think my way is right for me. I am happy, loved, cherished and owned by someone that cares deeply for me. Yes punishment is part of that relationship because it is something that WE both felt was the right thing for us. Punishment is not always as you see it, a beating. It take many forms but I always know that I am truly loved by him. I would see your way of removing yourself from the dynamic when things do not go your way as far more abusive than the way our relationship is. One thing he never does is withdraw from me in anyway. So if she signals that she is quitting the relationship through deliberate disobedience I am "abusive" if I respect her right to make that decision?

Stephann -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 10:14:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin To the audience at large: Listening to the punishment advocates and hecklers, it is obvious that no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. But as I understand the punishment paradigm, mistakes are always punished, which in the case of some people would mean beaten. Now, if we are to take the advocates and the hecklers at their word, no one stops making mistakes. That means a life-time of punishment, which for some people means being beaten for the rest of their lives: for mistakes. Why is that preferable to a life where mistakes are addressed constructively/cooperatively by people who are both fully-invested in the health and happiness of an M/s relationship, where the only choice that leads to an ending is deliberate betrayal of trust? You came a little after I penned this essay on Punishment and Discipline. The crux of your contention, is that you cannot imagine how punishment or discipline could reinforce trust, contribute to emotional health, happiness, or be constructive. No small number of people prefer clearly drawn rules and expectations, with clearly drawn consequences for failure to adhere to those rules. If I am to be at work at nine am each day, yet showing up at ten, eleven, not at all results in no punishment, it's unlikely that I will feel even more compelled to arrive at work on time each day; that negative incentive actually drives me to perform better (arriving on time to put in a full eight+ hours of productive work.) It's actually on par with a capitalist/communist perspective on work; communists often take the belief that if we are all encouraged to do our best, everyone will. Capitalists believe that when we are given negative as well as positive reinforcement, we will perform better. That the United States has the highest worker productivity rates as a result of this model (in my opinion.) You take a communist approach to relationships, I take a capitalist approach. We can argue why the other's ideology is wrong till we're blue in the face, but when I hang my hat up and lock my door at night the only people who need to be content with my ideology is me, and the girls at my feet. Stephan

mnottertail -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 10:18:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance You are too good to me, Ron (beams). If the switch could be beat out of me, I'd probably be the first in line for it. Please don't get me anything that needs to live outside of its natural environment. I kill all potted plants and ants in antfarms.... No soup for you, then. Reichfueher Von Suppe

Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 10:21:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin To the audience at large: Listening to the punishment advocates and hecklers, it is obvious that no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. But as I understand the punishment paradigm, mistakes are always punished, which in the case of some people would mean beaten. Now, if we are to take the advocates and the hecklers at their word, no one stops making mistakes. That means a life-time of punishment, which for some people means being beaten for the rest of their lives: for mistakes. Why is that preferable to a life where mistakes are addressed constructively/cooperatively by people who are both fully-invested in the health and happiness of an M/s relationship, where the only choice that leads to an ending is deliberate betrayal of trust? You came a little after I penned this essay on Punishment and Discipline. The crux of your contention, is that you cannot imagine how punishment or discipline could reinforce trust, contribute to emotional health, happiness, or be constructive. No small number of people prefer clearly drawn rules and expectations, with clearly drawn consequences for failure to adhere to those rules. If I am to be at work at nine am each day, yet showing up at ten, eleven, not at all results in no punishment, it's unlikely that I will feel even more compelled to arrive at work on time each day; that negative incentive actually drives me to perform better (arriving on time to put in a full eight+ hours of productive work.) It's actually on par with a capitalist/communist perspective on work; communists often take the belief that if we are all encouraged to do our best, everyone will. Capitalists believe that when we are given negative as well as positive reinforcement, we will perform better. That the United States has the highest worker productivity rates as a result of this model (in my opinion.) You take a communist approach to relationships, I take a capitalist approach. We can argue why the other's ideology is wrong till we're blue in the face, but when I hang my hat up and lock my door at night the only people who need to be content with my ideology is me, and the girls at my feet. Stephan Now maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt you have the same feelings for your work as you do for your "girls". Seems to me the motivation to excel in an M/s relationship is quite different than that of a working relationship. So comparing the two just doesn't work for me. Unless you are saying that serving you is like going somewhere where you don't want to go and doing something you don't want to do and never being adequately compensated for the effort.

susie -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 10:25:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: susie quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: susie Some choose the life time of punishment because that is exactly what they want from the relationship. And why do they want it that way? They have options. Why choose that one over any other? Because that is what they choose from their relationship. Nobody is forced to choose that way. What makes you choose yours. You think it is right for you. Well I think my way is right for me. I am happy, loved, cherished and owned by someone that cares deeply for me. Yes punishment is part of that relationship because it is something that WE both felt was the right thing for us. Punishment is not always as you see it, a beating. It take many forms but I always know that I am truly loved by him. I would see your way of removing yourself from the dynamic when things do not go your way as far more abusive than the way our relationship is. One thing he never does is withdraw from me in anyway. So if she signals that she is quitting the relationship through deliberate disobedience I am "abusive" if I respect her right to make that decision? No because that is clearly not what you have said in previous posts. You have said you withdraw from being the Master and wait for her to ask you to resume that role. To me (this is my view the one I am entitled to) that would be abusive emotionally. I have a consistent dominant partner not someone who turns it on and off when I am having a bad day.

susie -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 10:29:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Now maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt you have the same feelings for your work as you do for your "girls". Seems to me the motivation to excel in an M/s relationship is quite different than that of a working relationship. So comparing the two just doesn't work for me. Unless you are saying that serving you is like going somewhere where you don't want to go and doing something you don't want to do and never being adequately compensated for the effort. Not everyone sees work in that way. I have a job that I love as does Master. He runs his own business doing something he loves doing. The comparison is obviously not going to work for you if you have never had that feeling about a job. How sad to view your working life as something you hate doing.

Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 10:39:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: susie quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: susie quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: susie Some choose the life time of punishment because that is exactly what they want from the relationship. And why do they want it that way? They have options. Why choose that one over any other? Because that is what they choose from their relationship. Nobody is forced to choose that way. What makes you choose yours. You think it is right for you. Well I think my way is right for me. I am happy, loved, cherished and owned by someone that cares deeply for me. Yes punishment is part of that relationship because it is something that WE both felt was the right thing for us. Punishment is not always as you see it, a beating. It take many forms but I always know that I am truly loved by him. I would see your way of removing yourself from the dynamic when things do not go your way as far more abusive than the way our relationship is. One thing he never does is withdraw from me in anyway. So if she signals that she is quitting the relationship through deliberate disobedience I am "abusive" if I respect her right to make that decision? No because that is clearly not what you have said in previous posts. You have said you withdraw from being the Master and wait for her to ask you to resume that role. That is not what I've said. What I said was that if she is willing I will talk with her about her decision. If there was some error in communication then it is quickly discovered, addressed, and we move on together. But I can only recall one instance of that, with my wife early in our relationship. In the other cases of deliberate diobedience, it was indeed intended to end the relationship. For me, I see the act of disobedience to be the point where the relationship ended. That was where the trust was betrayed and the promise broken. Both the trust and the promise are essential to our M/s relationship. My refusal to act as master after that is my recognition of her right to quit. It is not a bluff. It is not a tactic. It is the end. If it is to continue, it will be at her request, and only providing she can convince me this won't happen again. And I am very reluctant to believe that if it happened once, it won't happen again. But thus far, that situation hasn't arisen and I hope it never does. quote: To me (this is my view the one I am entitled to) that would be abusive emotionally. I have a consistent dominant partner not someone who turns it on and off when I am having a bad day. And I saw my wife to her death by cancer. While I hope you never face that, if you do, I hope yours is as devoted to you as I was to mine.

susie -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 10:43:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: To me (this is my view the one I am entitled to) that would be abusive emotionally. I have a consistent dominant partner not someone who turns it on and off when I am having a bad day. And I saw my wife to her death by cancer. While I hope you never face that, if you do, I hope yours is as devoted to you as I was to mine. You are not the only one to have gone through that, though why you feel the need to mention it in every thread is beyond me. In fact my Master nursed his wife through cancer until her death 5 years ago. Last year he nursed me through a serious cancer operation. I can assure you that others are devoted to their partners too and you are not the only one. edited for crap spelling once again doh!

Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 10:43:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: susie quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Now maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt you have the same feelings for your work as you do for your "girls". Seems to me the motivation to excel in an M/s relationship is quite different than that of a working relationship. So comparing the two just doesn't work for me. Unless you are saying that serving you is like going somewhere where you don't want to go and doing something you don't want to do and never being adequately compensated for the effort. Not everyone sees work in that way. I have a job that I love as does Master. He runs his own business doing something he loves doing. The comparison is obviously not going to work for you if you have never had that feeling about a job. How sad to view your working life as something you hate doing. Well you've just patronized about 90% of America's working population, because most of them are not doing what they'd really like to do, or going where they'd really like to go. Certainly most do not run their own business. I happened to enjoy the work I did, for the most part. But before that I had other jobs I loathed. But when you need money for food and rent, you do what you can.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 10:59:32 AM)
Soup Nazi. (edited to point out this was directed toward Ron. Not Bob.) Domiguy: Greenville is 208.5 miles from Chicago.

breatheasone -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 11:08:36 AM)
I get spankings when I'm good [:)] ....I DON'T get puninshed for "mistakes" Heck I don't really get punished for anything LOL. Master and I seem to have the talk it out approch.

Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 11:13:40 AM)
To the audience at large: I'm wondering how much of a connection there is between choosing the punishment paradigm and the parenting strategy they experienced when young. I can see how too little discipline or too much discipline could lead towards choosing the punishment paradigm. It seems odd that so few can actually articulate why they want it. Makes me think of Kate's warning about how most people put very little thought into making choices.

mnottertail -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 11:14:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance Soup Nazi. (edited to point out this was directed toward Ron. Not Bob.) Domiguy: Greenville is 208.5 miles from Chicago. Gotta love it when you talk dirty to me, baby. Ron

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 11:24:29 AM)
Ron, you can try to beat the switch outa me, but if you break me - you bought me.

mnottertail -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 11:26:36 AM)
I never break my toys, if I did, I would have nothing left to play with, love. Ron

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