RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (Full Version)

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Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 11:39:22 AM)

To the audience at large:

I'm still confused about how punishment improves self-esteem.

Self-esteem improves through accomplishment.

Punishment is payment exacted for failure.

Where's the connection?



mnottertail -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 11:46:44 AM)

your reasoning is cloudy....

first, you may feel whatever you feel about it.......

but the couching of the arguments in the line you have is not the codex on how it is thought of by all.

Self-esteem improves through accomplishment.
This may be true in and of itself.

Punishment is payment exacted for failure.
This may be true in and of itself. 

Where's the connection?
This is not aught to do with either of the above statements, except as you see the world.

I would say there is no connection to those two statements either.

Some Buicks are red.
That car is red.  
That car is a Buick.
Where is the connection.

That is where you are arguing, and I don't accept your definitions as stated.

You lay there and think as you please, as will I.  Others have given you views that you refuse to accept.  Oh, well---------fuck it, let's go have a slumber party and toast some marshmallows. It is no big deal if you can't get it. Nothing life changing.

Ron  



susie -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 11:48:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

To the audience at large:

I'm still confused about how punishment improves self-esteem.

Self-esteem improves through accomplishment.

Punishment is payment exacted for failure.

Where's the connection?


Why do you assume that as a submissive I need to improve my self esteem? I don't.

That is also the case for many of the submissives / slaves that frequent these fora.



missturbation -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 11:48:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

To the audience at large:

I'm still confused about how punishment improves self-esteem.
Punishment improves my self esteem because it improves me and my behaviour.

Self-esteem improves through accomplishment.
I accomplish better behaviour, better service after punishment so therefore an increase in self esteem.

Punishment is payment exacted for failure.
Punishment isn't always about failure. It may be about a temporary lapse. But yes if i fail to behave correctly, derve correctly then punish me.

Where's the connection?
See above.



stef -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 11:55:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

To the audience at large:

But Bob, it's abundantly clear that you're not interested in hearing from the audience at large so why pretend that you are?  Any time anyone disagrees with you or points out your Channel Tunnel sized holes in your suppositions, you either ignore them or brand them as hecklers or bullies?  Try and be a little more honest and say from the start that you're really only interested in talking to Bobkateers, people gullible enough who buy into your one true way dogma

~stef



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 11:56:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

your reasoning is cloudy....

first, you may feel whatever you feel about it.......

but the couching of the arguments in the line you have is not the codex on how it is thought of by all.

Self-esteem improves through accomplishment.
This may be true in and of itself.

Punishment is payment exacted for failure.
This may be true in and of itself. 

Where's the connection?
This is not aught to do with either of the above statements, except as you see the world.

I would say there is no connection to those two statements either.


I'd say there is a connection: punishment erodes self-esteem.

Punishment treats mistakes in a cynical way, whereas correction addresses mistakes in an optimistic way.

Punishment paradigm seems to dictate that the sub/slave must suffer in addition to any and all suffering she's already experiencing as a direct result of the mistake.

Sort of like: "your mistake broke your arm, and so I am going to break the other one to make you pay for your mistake"

What would the punishment be if the sub mistakenly burned down the house?

Punishment comes across as gratuitous violence: you make a mistake (you will always make mistakes) get punished (you will always get punished).

Where is the incentive to stop making mistakes?



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 11:59:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Self-esteem improves through accomplishment.

I accomplish better behaviour, better service after punishment so therefore an increase in self esteem.


Thank you for your answer.

With respect to the answer above, why does punishment have that affect on you?



stef -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:01:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

I'd say there is a connection: punishment erodes self-esteem.

And you would be wrong.

quote:

Punishment comes across as gratuitous violence: you make a mistake (you will always make mistakes) get punished (you will always get punished).

Are you still stuck on the idea that punishment is "intended to correct behaviour through physical discipline"?  News flash, it's not.

quote:

Where is the incentive to stop making mistakes?

Asked and answered.

~stef



mnottertail -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:04:21 PM)

how can you even come to that? it is so absurdly constructed that I will not even quote it.  Punishment erodes self esteem.  OK, thanks......I didn't know that was an axiom...........bet you feel like a piece of shit over getting the burn from the stove huh?  Ruined your fuckin outlook forever I bet.  Yeah, that is hard shit to get over, buddy.

To be just as garish, in a counter example, gi' us a wee couple o' lines on the self exteem crisis faced by Charles Manson. There is no alternative thought process that could exist.

Ron



missturbation -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:04:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

your reasoning is cloudy....

first, you may feel whatever you feel about it.......

but the couching of the arguments in the line you have is not the codex on how it is thought of by all.

Self-esteem improves through accomplishment.
This may be true in and of itself.

Punishment is payment exacted for failure.
This may be true in and of itself. 

Where's the connection?
This is not aught to do with either of the above statements, except as you see the world.

I would say there is no connection to those two statements either.


I'd say there is a connection: punishment erodes self-esteem.
Not for everyone.

Punishment treats mistakes in a cynical way, whereas correction addresses mistakes in an optimistic way.
Punishment - correction = same same.

Punishment paradigm seems to dictate that the sub/slave must suffer in addition to any and all suffering she's already experiencing as a direct result of the mistake.
Yes and?

Sort of like: "your mistake broke your arm, and so I am going to break the other one to make you pay for your mistake"
Huh? This just doesnt make any sense. how does breaking your arm by mistake mean you are going to be punished, incoherent comparison.

What would the punishment be if the sub mistakenly burned down the house?
Strokes of the cane for me.

Punishment comes across as gratuitous violence: you make a mistake (you will always make mistakes) get punished (you will always get punished).
For you, not everyone. Your way is not the one true way, your thoughts are not the one true thoughts.

Where is the incentive to stop making mistakes?
I don't like being punished, i dont like letting Sir down. There two incentives for you.




missturbation -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:08:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Self-esteem improves through accomplishment.

I accomplish better behaviour, better service after punishment so therefore an increase in self esteem.


Thank you for your answer.

With respect to the answer above, why does punishment have that affect on you?


Punishment helps me immensely. It reinforces whatever i did was unacceptable, it helps me get rid of the negative emotional feelings i have when i let Sir down.
Therefore through punishment i feel better emotionally and am able to let go of the feelings of guilt, i feel i have paid my dues.
When i feel good emotionally my self esteem heightens.
Hope that makes sense.



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:10:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Where is the incentive to stop making mistakes?

I don't like being punished, i dont like letting Sir down. There two incentives for you.



Why isn't the one I highlighted enough incentive?



susie -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:10:27 PM)

Please explain why you assume submissives / slaves suffer from low self esteem. Or are these the only type of submissive you have had relationships with?




missturbation -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:11:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Where is the incentive to stop making mistakes?

I don't like being punished, i dont like letting Sir down. There two incentives for you.



Why isn't the one I highlighted enough incentive?


Punishment helps me immensely. It reinforces whatever i did was unacceptable, it helps me get rid of the negative emotional feelings i have when i let Sir down.
Therefore through punishment i feel better emotionally and am able to let go of the feelings of guilt, i feel i have paid my dues.
When i feel good emotionally my self esteem heightens.
Hope that makes sense.

Apologies for repeated post but it fits the question.



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:12:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Self-esteem improves through accomplishment.

I accomplish better behaviour, better service after punishment so therefore an increase in self esteem.


Thank you for your answer.

With respect to the answer above, why does punishment have that affect on you?


Punishment helps me immensely. It reinforces whatever i did was unacceptable, it helps me get rid of the negative emotional feelings i have when i let Sir down.
Therefore through punishment i feel better emotionally and am able to let go of the feelings of guilt, i feel i have paid my dues.
When i feel good emotionally my self esteem heightens.
Hope that makes sense.


I think it does.

If I may rephrase, as a check:

Punishment purges you of guilt, thus allowing you to feel better about yourself.

Is that about right?



MissSCD -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:13:07 PM)

Consent.  It is all about the consent of the relationship between Dom/me and sub/slave.

Regards, MissSCD



missturbation -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:17:17 PM)

I think it does.

If I may rephrase, as a check:

Punishment purges you of guilt, thus allowing you to feel better about yourself.

Is that about right?

Yes.
In the main i have been punished for stupid mistakes i should not have made. For me the physical punishment reinforces better than being spoken to does. By taking my strokes i feel like i am paying for my errors.



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:20:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Please explain why you assume submissives / slaves suffer from low self esteem.



I don't assume anyone is suffering from low self-esteem. I assume everyone is a responsible, mature, intelligent adult.

It's up to them to prove me wrong.

quote:



Or are these the only type of submissive you have had relationships with?



I have helped a few individuals who have suffered from that problem.

My wife suffered from it when we met, due to her weight problem.

It was great watching her blossom. [:)]



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:25:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I think it does.

If I may rephrase, as a check:

Punishment purges you of guilt, thus allowing you to feel better about yourself.

Is that about right?

Yes.
In the main i have been punished for stupid mistakes i should not have made. For me the physical punishment reinforces better than being spoken to does. By taking my strokes i feel like i am paying for my errors.


Thank you.

If I may ask a more delicate question (disregard if you wish), was physical punishment a part of your upbringing?



susie -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:28:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Please explain why you assume submissives / slaves suffer from low self esteem.



I don't assume anyone is suffering from low self-esteem. I assume everyone is a responsible, mature, intelligent adult.

It's up to them to prove me wrong.



quote:

original:Bobkgin

I'm still confused about how punishment improves self esteem



So why are you connecting punishment and self esteem if you do no think that submissives suffer from low self esteem



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