RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (Full Version)

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missturbation -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:31:05 PM)

Thank you.

If I may ask a more delicate question (disregard if you wish), was physical punishment a part of your upbringing?

Very rarely. I can probably count on my hands the amount of times i remember being physically punished as i grew up. I do not remember it ever hurting to be honest, it was just a slap on the behind.
I also could count on my hands the times i have disciplined my own child physically and again i bet ive never hurt her.



amiciaN -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:55:47 PM)

Ok, I can't stand it, I have to say this....

Bob, what you are missing is just how severe the internal punishment an s-type can inflict upon themselves can be.  My Master never raised a hand to His children or grandchildren.  He does not punish me for retribution on His part, but for the sake of restitution on mine.  I will keep 'beating myself up', until my self-esteem is in the gutter.  The 'punishment' stops the internal violence I do to myself.  He takes back the authority, and declares what the 'just consequence' of my actions are.  He administers His justice, not mine, and it is over.  Our relationship proceeds from there.  Also, Master cannot use corporal punishment for the most part as we are long distance at this time. 

The point I hope you understand is this:
His punishment is not causing more 'violence', it is stopping it.

(edited once for grammar and again because I mispelled grammar and for clarity)



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 12:57:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Please explain why you assume submissives / slaves suffer from low self esteem.



I don't assume anyone is suffering from low self-esteem. I assume everyone is a responsible, mature, intelligent adult.

It's up to them to prove me wrong.



quote:

original:Bobkgin

I'm still confused about how punishment improves self esteem



So why are you connecting punishment and self esteem if you do no think that submissives suffer from low self esteem


Several reasons:

Of those I've known and helped who suffered from low self-esteem, punishment figured prominently in their past.

I've never had a sub/slave request "punishment" as a condition of her service to me (and I am speaking of all those I've interviewed over the years, not just those who went on to actual service).

Of those who served, none complained that I did not punish, and several were pleasantly surprised to discover how much better life was without it (as they'd experienced it before meeting me).

And as I've explained, an analysis of the ethics/morality/motivation aspects has not convinced me.

However, I am listening to Missturbation, Prop, and anyone who says punishment works for her. I can accept that these ladies are relaying reliable information about themselves and their relationships, despite the fact I do not (yet) understand how it works.

That's why I opened the discussion: to better understand it.



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:00:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Thank you.

If I may ask a more delicate question (disregard if you wish), was physical punishment a part of your upbringing?

Very rarely. I can probably count on my hands the amount of times i remember being physically punished as i grew up. I do not remember it ever hurting to be honest, it was just a slap on the behind.


I respect what you've said about your child. I'd prefer to focus on you at the moment.

How did/do you feel about the kind of punishment you received through your upbringing? Did/do those feelings influence your choice to accept punishment in your current relationship?



Alumbrado -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:04:06 PM)

quote:

I'm still confused about how punishment improves self-esteem.


It improves self awareness.  Developing a healthy self esteem is facilitated by (among other things) understanding limits and boundaries.



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:04:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: amiciaN

Ok, I can't stand it, I have to say this....

Bob, what you are missing is just how severe the internal punishment an s-type can inflict upon themselves can be.  My Master never raised a hand to His children or grandchildren.  He does not punish me for retribution on His part, but for the sake of restitution on mine.  I will keep 'beating myself up', until my self-esteem is in the gutter.  The 'punishment' stops the internal violence I do to myself.  He takes back the authority, and declares what the 'just consequence' of my actions are.  He administers His justice, not mine, and it is over.  Our relationship proceeds from there.  Also, Master cannot use corporal punishment for the most part as we are long distance at this time. 

The point I hope you understand is this:
His punishment is not causing more 'violence', it is stopping it.



Thank you Amicia. This is helpful.

May I ask why you must do this until punishment has been administered? Could he not simply tell you it is time to accept what was done and move on, or divert that energy towards something more constructive?

This isn't a criticism. To understand the dynamic I need to understand such things.



WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:05:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: amiciaN

Ok, I can't stand it, I have to say this....

Bob, what you are missing is just how severe the internal punishment an s-type can inflict upon themselves can be.  My Master never raised a hand to His children or grandchildren.  He does not punish me for retribution on His part, but for the sake of restitution on mine.  I will keep 'beating myself up', until my self-esteem is in the gutter.  The 'punishment' stops the internal violence I do to myself.  He takes back the authority, and declares what the 'just consequence' of my actions are.  He administers His justice, not mine, and it is over.  Our relationship proceeds from there.  Also, Master cannot use corporal punishment for the most part as we are long distance at this time. 

The point I hope you understand is this:
His punishment is not causing more 'violence', it is stopping it.

(edited once for grammar and again because I mispelled grammar and for clarity)



I think you make a very good point here.  I know that in the past, I've been harder on myself over mistakes I've made, than anyone would ever dream of being on me.  It can be a kindness and mercy to offer someone who is anguishing over a mistake, the opportunity to redeem themselves and make amends. A very good point, amiciaN.  Thank you for sharing.



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:08:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

I'm still confused about how punishment improves self-esteem.


It improves self awareness.  Developing a healthy self esteem is facilitated by (among other things) understanding limits and boundaries.


I agree with the latter.

The former has yet to be demonstrated for me.

But I am listening.



missturbation -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:08:56 PM)

I respect what you've said about your child. I'd prefer to focus on you at the moment.

How did/do you feel about the kind of punishment you received through your upbringing? Did/do those feelings influence your choice to accept punishment in your current relationship?

Well mainly punishment for me was to be spoken to. Things were discussed when they went wrong and to be totally honest i didn't care. Had i of been physically punished would it have made a difference? No.
I grew up very selfish and had quite a bad relationship with my parents due to the fact i was selfish and it was my way or no way. I wasnt bothered when i hurt them or let them down in any way. Nowadays i have a better relationship with my parents and do care if they are hurt or let down. I still live my own way though.
I don't think it has anything to do with my need for punishment in my present relationship.



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:12:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I respect what you've said about your child. I'd prefer to focus on you at the moment.

How did/do you feel about the kind of punishment you received through your upbringing? Did/do those feelings influence your choice to accept punishment in your current relationship?

Well mainly punishment for me was to be spoken to. Things were discussed when they went wrong and to be totally honest i didn't care. Had i of been physically punished would it have made a difference? No.
I grew up very selfish and had quite a bad relationship with my parents due to the fact i was selfish and it was my way or no way. I wasnt bothered when i hurt them or let them down in any way. Nowadays i have a better relationship with my parents and do care if they are hurt or let down. I still live my own way though.
I don't think it has anything to do with my need for punishment in my present relationship.


But if I understand correctly, you do find punishment more effective in curbing your mistakes.

Mistakes like selfishness?



missturbation -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:22:49 PM)

But if I understand correctly, you do find punishment more effective in curbing your mistakes.

Mistakes like selfishness?

With Sir yes. Nothing would have worked with my parents. I was a different person back then.
I would not personally class the mistakes i have made with Sir as selfsih ones.



xoxi -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:34:48 PM)

I find it interesting Bob that your main argument against punishment is that it's designed to instill fear in a submissive.

I have a fear of abandonment.  It's twenty thousand times stronger than any fear of being spanked or being hit.

From what you've said in the thread your take on relationships is "be perfect or be abandoned" - which I think would instill FAR more fear in someone than "if you are less than perfect you will be spanked and forgiven and we can move on."

Don't you think that your approach would lead to a very strong fear that they have to be entirely perfect, at all times, no matter what, or else tossed to the side of the road like they're nothing?



amiciaN -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:35:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin


Thank you Amicia. This is helpful.

May I ask why you must do this until punishment has been administered? Could he not simply tell you it is time to accept what was done and move on, or divert that energy towards something more constructive?

This isn't a criticism. To understand the dynamic I need to understand such things.



It comes from growing up with expectations of perfection, Bob  (which is probably why my posts have been passionate, though calling them histrionic is likely to be hyperbole).  Nothing less than 100% on school work was good enough.  If I had to clean the bathroom, the floor behind the toilet was checked with a white piece of tissue and the shower tiles checked with a black glove or rag for water scale deposits.  When I was 8 years old, I washed every dish in the house for leaving one spot on the side of a serving bowl and one spot under the handle of a skillet.  It took me about 8 hours; until past 2:00 am to finish on a school night.  Perfect was the only acceptable standard and I failed over and over and over again.  Nothing I did was ever good enough; I wasn't ever good enough.  I internalized that completely.  I accepted an emotionally abusive relationship for 20 years because I was convinced I deserved all the contempt and criticism heaped on my head.  Even attempts at building my self esteem were always couched in terms of how I wasn't living up to my potential, I could 'do better'.  My Master NChaka has never done that to me; not once!  He accepts me and loves me for who I am, not who I was or who I may become.

In two years, my Master has only punished me a handful of times.  He does not like to punish me at all.  In every case, it was because talking about it was not resolving things.  The punishment was a way to end the conflict.  It is always done with love.



defiantbadgirl -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:36:57 PM)

I'd rather be spanked than abandoned any day.



amiciaN -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:38:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I'd rather be spanked than abandoned any day.


AMEN!!



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:38:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

But if I understand correctly, you do find punishment more effective in curbing your mistakes.

Mistakes like selfishness?

With Sir yes. Nothing would have worked with my parents. I was a different person back then.
I would not personally class the mistakes i have made with Sir as selfsih ones.


Does this mean you curbed your selfishness before meeting Sir?



Stephann -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:39:16 PM)

quote:

I don't assume anyone is suffering from low self-esteem. I assume everyone is a responsible, mature, intelligent adult.

It's up to them to prove me wrong


I will state that there are literally dozens of statements by you to the contrary on this forum.

You can't imagine changing your submissive, clearly.  That's fine and dandy.  Some submissives actively desire to be changed by their dominants.  For them, this gives a sense of their submission; indeed, if there were no expectations (with teeth to enforce them) why bother with expectations at all?

You really missed on the work example.  For my girls, the things they do for me are work.  It's hard to serve me; I know it, they know it.  To please me isn't a given, it's a challenge.  A bleary eyed charlotte had to fetch coffee after about four hours of sleep this morning; by the time it was in my hands, she had a huge smile on her face.  Getting her out of bed, though, required a few whacks on the behind.  This didn't make her a weak, stupid, lazy, woman with poor self-esteem; it made her a slave who thrives on having rules and having those rules enforced.  (I'll have her elaborate when she's off work tonight.)  Your approach would be "well, I'd like her to make me coffee, but if she doesn't that's ok too; she's only supposed to do the things she feels motivated to do."  A few days of that with Tigrita, and you'd probably be the one making her coffee. 

Strong willed women sometimes desire much stronger willed men (use whatever gender you think necessary here.)  Thus, where you would find an obstinant and unco-operative person, I see a hungry willing submissive.  Naturally, you're left scratching your head and wondering 'why.'

Stephan



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:44:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I find it interesting Bob that your main argument against punishment is that it's designed to instill fear in a submissive.

I have a fear of abandonment.  It's twenty thousand times stronger than any fear of being spanked or being hit.

From what you've said in the thread your take on relationships is "be perfect or be abandoned"



Xoxi, those who have followed this thread know that's not what I am saying at all.




domiguy -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:46:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I find it interesting Bob that your main argument against punishment is that it's designed to instill fear in a submissive.

I have a fear of abandonment.  It's twenty thousand times stronger than any fear of being spanked or being hit.

From what you've said in the thread your take on relationships is "be perfect or be abandoned"



Xoxi, those who have followed this thread know that's not what I am saying at all.




I certainly hope you get at least a blowjob from the person that has actually taken the time to follow this thread.



missturbation -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 1:46:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

But if I understand correctly, you do find punishment more effective in curbing your mistakes.

Mistakes like selfishness?

With Sir yes. Nothing would have worked with my parents. I was a different person back then.
I would not personally class the mistakes i have made with Sir as selfsih ones.


Does this mean you curbed your selfishness before meeting Sir?


No, i'm still selfish.
I'm not selfish with Sir though. There is no place for it in our relationship.



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