RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (Full Version)

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Aileen68 -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 4:15:26 PM)

Well maybe in a strange kind of way bob has proven that punishment is abusive.  If someone was forced to read his words that would be considered a punishment and that kind of punishment could definitely be categorized as abuse.  [:D]



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 4:21:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

What are the ethical/moral foundations for the punishment paradigm?


Depends on the variant of the paradigm, the people involved, the reference ethics, etc.

Care to be more specific if you want a thesis on this? [;)]


I could probably use some keyword terminology so as to make a selection.

quote:

quote:


"I don't like what your doing so I'll beat you for it" ?


That's not exactly the common version of the punishment paradigm.
It sounds more like partially internalized sadism instead.
Some "subs" use it as a way to initiate play.


Derived from things Prop said: that Daddy could punish her for things he didnt like, whether he'd told her about these things or not.

quote:


For me, I prefer to keep my sadism sadistic, my corrections productive.
And never the two shall meet in intent or motive, for me.


Agreed.



Prinsexx -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 4:26:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Through the various punishment threads the theme seems to be:

1. sub/slave breaks a rule.
2. sub/slave needs physical punishment to learn not to break the rule.



I don't agree as what this really means to me is:

sub/slave needs physical pain and/or/ as punishment
sub/slave nreaks rule or does not obey in order to be physically pained or pumshed

Forgive the cultural diversity here BUT
Perhaps in Europe we have internalised the repression model.......what is expressed is tangential to needs

As a switch I know both sides of the power equation....when I am sub I love to break the rules....being a feisty sub getsme far more attention

When I am dom I like my snese of responsibility pushed to its limits and love disobeience...it makes my punishment soooooo creative.

perhaps in Us/Canada they have internalised the behavourist model....what expressed is repressed



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 4:35:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Through the various punishment threads the theme seems to be:

1. sub/slave breaks a rule.
2. sub/slave needs physical punishment to learn not to break the rule.



I don't agree as what this really means to me is:

sub/slave needs physical pain and/or/ as punishment
sub/slave nreaks rule or does not obey in order to be physically pained or pumshed

Forgive the cultural diversity here BUT
Perhaps in Europe we have internalised the repression model.......what is expressed is tangential to needs

As a switch I know both sides of the power equation....when I am sub I love to break the rules....being a feisty sub getsme far more attention

When I am dom I like my snese of responsibility pushed to its limits and love disobeience...it makes my punishment soooooo creative.

perhaps in Us/Canada they have internalised the behavourist model....what expressed is repressed



Prinsexx, that sounds more like role-playing to me. I'm not addressing those who engage in role-playing that involves punishment.

I am addressing those who use punishment as a punitive measure with the expressed intent of "correcting" behaviour.

As for models in Canada and the US, I won't hazard a guess. I've been involved in my own M/s with my wife for over ten years, and just recently have started looking about again.

Probably safer to say my M/s is too rare to be considered a "kind". More like an "anomaly".

I'm just grateful I've heard from a few others with similar forms of M/s.

A quick aside: how are things with your young man these days? All going well, I hope. [:)]



Tigrita -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 5:12:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
Strong willed women sometimes desire much stronger willed men (use whatever gender you think necessary here.)  Thus, where you would find an obstinant and unco-operative person, I see a hungry willing submissive.  Naturally, you're left scratching your head and wondering 'why.'


Actually, I have a theory about who ends up with the high-maintenance slaves and who ends up with the low-maintenance ones.

But it would probably be prudent for me to keep that to myself.

[;)]


Ohhooo wooooow.  ROFLMAO.  Yeah, you'd see it that way all right.   When she finds her match, a tigress makes a ferociously devoted submissive.  You'd never have the spine to discover that. 

Half&Half and a Splenda. Quick-like bobbykins.



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 5:21:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
Strong willed women sometimes desire much stronger willed men (use whatever gender you think necessary here.)  Thus, where you would find an obstinant and unco-operative person, I see a hungry willing submissive.  Naturally, you're left scratching your head and wondering 'why.'


Actually, I have a theory about who ends up with the high-maintenance slaves and who ends up with the low-maintenance ones.

But it would probably be prudent for me to keep that to myself.

[;)]


Ohhooo wooooow.  ROFLMAO.  Yeah, you'd see it that way all right.   When she finds her match, a tigress makes a ferociously devoted submissive.  You'd never have the spine to discover that. 

Half&Half and a Splenda. Quick-like bobbykins.


lol

He's more than welcome to you, Rita.

I have my own preferences which make me happy.



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 6:47:28 PM)

To the audience at large:

I am curious how the punishment advocates would handle a sub/slave who repeatedly:

- safe-worded during punishment
- broke down or suffered a panic attack during punishment.
- changed her mind about accepting/tolerating punishment, choosing to refuse it in future.




xoxi -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 6:53:05 PM)

[sm=idea.gif][sm=argue.gif][sm=boxer.gif][sm=banana.gif][sm=ofcourse.gif][sm=whoa.gif][sm=boohoo.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=mrpuffy.gif][sm=banghead.gif][sm=dance.gif][sm=goodnight.gif]

Yup I think that sums up the thread quite nicely.

Especially this one  [sm=idea.gif]



xoxi -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 6:58:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

To the audience at large:

I am curious how the punishment advocates would handle a sub/slave who repeatedly:

- safe-worded during punishment
- broke down or suffered a panic attack during punishment.
- changed her mind about accepting/tolerating punishment, choosing to refuse it in future.


Not that I would ever have a sub, but my ideal man would:

1. Stop, ask what the problem was and then switch to a different form of punishment
2. Stop, ask what the problem was, and then once she calmed down switch to a different form of punishment
3. Examine the dynamics of the relationship and determine if it was a change he was interested in pursuing.  If so, implement it.  If not, wish her luck and attempt to find someone more compatible

Most people aren't 100% rigidly set in stone.  They do things like compromise.  However I do think panic attacks during punishment would speak to a deeper mental problem that possibly should be resolved before pursuing a relationship with a D/s dynamic.



MadRabbit -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:01:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Really? Because it is a repeat of several others starring Bob, his homemade definitions, his projection, and his magical ability to read blocked posters.....[8|]


Dont forget his humorous rantings of his "uber experience" even though his theories and paradigms are completely unpractical, unlogical and lacking of even one personal example or analogy from all his decades of "binding slaves" to help support how they would actually work.



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:06:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

- changed her mind about accepting/tolerating punishment, choosing to refuse it in future.



3. Examine the dynamics of the relationship and determine if it was a change he was interested in pursuing.  If so, implement it.  If not, wish her luck and attempt to find someone more compatible



Now, those who have followed this thread have seen a -lot- of talk about "emotional blackmail" and "abandonment".

Wouldn't a dom threatening to "abandon" a sub unless she allows her dom to beat her as "punishment" constitute "emotional blackmail"?



MadRabbit -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:13:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

To the audience at large:

But Bob, it's abundantly clear that you're not interested in hearing from the audience at large so why pretend that you are?  Any time anyone disagrees with you or points out your Channel Tunnel sized holes in your suppositions, you either ignore them or brand them as hecklers or bullies?  Try and be a little more honest and say from the start that you're really only interested in talking to Bobkateers, people gullible enough who buy into your one true way dogma

~stef


Bobkateers....thats priceless



trappedinamuseum -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:18:52 PM)

That's not abandonment.  If they have a commitment, and she (or he) for that matter, does not obey the statutes and limitations set forth (i.e. accepting punishment as he sees fit) in that relationship, then why pursue the matter? Doesn't he have the right to end the relationship, as does she?   It is not abandoment; it is the severing of a relationship that is not working on some level...it is up to him to decide how much effort to put into discovering why she refuses that punishment. 




Padriag -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:23:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

To the audience at large:

I am curious how the punishment advocates would handle a sub/slave who repeatedly:

- safe-worded during punishment

A safe-word should not be necessary during punishment.  Safe-words were never intended for that, they are most appropriate during edge play, play with people you don't know well, etc.  Punishment should be, like any consequence, unavoidable by saying "ardvaark" or some such.

quote:

- broke down or suffered a panic attack during punishment.

I find it unlikely that such would occur, though it is possible.  Obviously if that became the case, it would warrant further investigation on the part of the dominant... and thus "repeatedly" happening should be even more unlikely.

quote:

- changed her mind about accepting/tolerating punishment, choosing to refuse it in future.

Not an option they have.  If they feel that strongly about it, they know where the door is.  However, I've never had that be a problem, chiefly because I make sure such matters are settled before it progresses to a relationship.

On a further note, I find some of the questions a bit peculiar, particularly the first two.  Both somewhat imply punishments which are extreme enough to either require a safeword, or provoke a traumatic response.  I can't recall ever using a punishment that left either a possibility.  Making someone repeat a task until they get it right, giving a lecture, taking away a privilege, etc. are all forms of punishment I make use of.  I find yet another, now 19 page, debate about punishment which still seems to perpetuate the same stereotypes of punishment always being some form of harsh corporeal discipline.  While I have no particular problem with corporeal punishment, whether it be having a slave kneel on rice or caning the soles of the feet, they are not forms I've ever much used (just a matter of personal style really).  But perhaps the point I find most ironic in all this debate about punishment is the fact that many of the fetishes so many enjoy, such as flogging, whipping, strenuous bondage, stocks, etc. were originally designed and intended as forms of punishment.  A point that has amused me to no end.



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:26:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trappedinamuseum

That's not abandonment.  If they have a commitment, and she (or he) for that matter, does not obey the statutes and limitations set forth (i.e. accepting punishment as he sees fit) in that relationship, then why pursue the matter? Doesn't he have the right to end the relationship, as does she?   It is not abandoment; it is the severing of a relationship that is not working on some level...it is up to him to decide how much effort to put into discovering why she refuses that punishment. 



Trapped, I'm in complete agreement with you, as I argued earlier in this thread.

However, there are some who feel a dom should never abandon a sub, regardless of how much she might unilaterally change the dynamics of the relationship.

At least, that was the position they took when I explained the limits of a relationship with me.

But this -does- raise an interesting question:

Is it impossible for a sub/slave in a punishment-driven relationship to outgrow her need for punishment without risking/losing the relationship she's spent years developing?




Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:34:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

To the audience at large:

I am curious how the punishment advocates would handle a sub/slave who repeatedly:

- safe-worded during punishment

A safe-word should not be necessary during punishment.  Safe-words were never intended for that, they are most appropriate during edge play, play with people you don't know well, etc.  Punishment should be, like any consequence, unavoidable by saying "ardvaark" or some such.

quote:

- broke down or suffered a panic attack during punishment.

I find it unlikely that such would occur, though it is possible.  Obviously if that became the case, it would warrant further investigation on the part of the dominant... and thus "repeatedly" happening should be even more unlikely.

quote:

- changed her mind about accepting/tolerating punishment, choosing to refuse it in future.

Not an option they have.  If they feel that strongly about it, they know where the door is.  However, I've never had that be a problem, chiefly because I make sure such matters are settled before it progresses to a relationship.

On a further note, I find some of the questions a bit peculiar, particularly the first two.  Both somewhat imply punishments which are extreme enough to either require a safeword, or provoke a traumatic response.  I can't recall ever using a punishment that left either a possibility.  Making someone repeat a task until they get it right, giving a lecture, taking away a privilege, etc. are all forms of punishment I make use of.  I find yet another, now 19 page, debate about punishment which still seems to perpetuate the same stereotypes of punishment always being some form of harsh corporeal discipline.  While I have no particular problem with corporeal punishment, whether it be having a slave kneel on rice or caning the soles of the feet, they are not forms I've ever much used (just a matter of personal style really).  But perhaps the point I find most ironic in all this debate about punishment is the fact that many of the fetishes so many enjoy, such as flogging, whipping, strenuous bondage, stocks, etc. were originally designed and intended as forms of punishment.  A point that has amused me to no end.


Padriag, I've seen debates where some said safewords should be permitted during punishment. That's where that question comes from.

And several people have spoken of corporal punishment. I acknowledge that it is not everyone's choice, but there are sufficient numbers that it is not out of line to use it as an example of what can occur.

Thank you for your opinion. Bottom line, a punishment-driven relationship ends if/when a sub decides she does not want punishment any longer.




trappedinamuseum -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:37:18 PM)

Don't all relationships change, mature, and grow over time?  Who would want to be in a static relationship for the rest of their life?  Relationships are hard work...I think if she wants it badly enough, and works at it enough, nothing is impossible.  If she grows out of needing punishment, one can only hope he has grown out of needing to mete out punishment.  Hopefully, they've made the journey together and can work through it.  



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:40:40 PM)

To the audience at large:

It has been argued that a sub/slave in a punishment-driven relationship should be able to deliberately disobey her d/m as long as she is willing to pay for it through punishment. and that as long as she pays for it through punishment her d/m has no basis for ending the relationship.

Do you believe this argument has merit?

Why/why not?



MadRabbit -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:50:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

To the audience at large:

It has been argued that a sub/slave in a punishment-driven relationship should be able to deliberately disobey her d/m as long as she is willing to pay for it through punishment. and that as long as she pays for it through punishment her d/m has no basis for ending the relationship.

Do you believe this argument has merit?

Why/why not?


Bob, it would be helpful if you actually provided quotes as to where these arguments you are paraphrasing are coming from. I have yet to see this argument presented. Your merely shoving words in the mouths of the "audience at large" (you know...the one you arent listening to) based on whatever twisted conjecture you have created in your own mind.

Personally, I wonder...why even bother participating in this discussion since anything that is offered as an argument will just be hashed up, broken apart, and twisted back together into something completely silly, innacurate, and bearing very little resemble to what the actual person is trying to communicate.

I wonder...what is the proper term for these 19 pages since "discussion" and "debate" hardly do any justice to the obtuse and ignorant ramblings of one man who is arguing against things never said and made up by him?

I dont know....maybe by page 25...you will suddenly come to realization thats the darkness surrounding you isnt from it being night outside, but from having your head lodged so far up a certain orifice of your body.

Until then, I will enjoy the entertainment value of yet another one of Collarme.com's pseudo experts.



xoxi -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 7:57:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Now, those who have followed this thread have seen a -lot- of talk about "emotional blackmail" and "abandonment".

Wouldn't a dom threatening to "abandon" a sub unless she allows her dom to beat her as "punishment" constitute "emotional blackmail"?


No, I don't think it's blackmail because I don't think it would be presented as "let me punish you or I will leave."

In fact, I would think that once a sub said she didn't want that dynamic in the relationship, and the Dom said he couldn't live without it, then BOTH parties would agree that it's not in THEIR mutual best interest to continue a relationship.

So yes saying "let me do it or I will leave" is a form of blackmail, but no emotionally mature person would put it that way.  They would realize the relationship was not working out and end it.  I know I would rather have someone leave me than stay with me and endure things that make me happy but make them miserable. 



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