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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 7:13:26 AM

Termyn8or

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Wow, now I have to reply to replies that......let's not go there.

Deternimism, well, isn't that something you choose ? I gotta go to work early, I gotta work late, something you hate, but you do it because you have a goal.

That goal is your choice, and it just occurred to me, the PERFECT example of free will.

T

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 21

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 7:24:27 AM

kirii

Posts: 79
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Hello termyn8to
In a nutshell, determinism is simply an argument against the concept of free will. I could quote the exact definition, but instead I will link it here for you so that you can pick the one that you like best J
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism
http://skepdic.com/determinism.html
http://order.ph.utexas.edu/chaos/determinism.html
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04756c.htm
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 22

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 7:28:50 AM

kirii

Posts: 79
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In answer to what you actually asked though; is determinism something that a person chooses?
Yes, but the argument still holds that I choose it because of something that was caused ( or happened ) in my past to direct me to that argument.
Everything happens for a reason; my choices happen for a reason; therefore, my free will ( the moral choices that I make ) happen because of something in my past.
My choices are pre-determined.
I don’t 100% support either side of either argument; I just find both to be of great interest in the wider scheme of things. I will say though that I am more closely tied to the idea of determinism than I am to free will.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 23

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 7:30:01 AM

UR2Badored

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Joined: 2/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Wow, now I have to reply to replies that......let's not go there.

Deternimism, well, isn't that something you choose ? I gotta go to work early, I gotta work late, something you hate, but you do it because you have a goal.

That goal is your choice, and it just occurred to me, the PERFECT example of free will.

T

I will leave shortly but just had to ask......What if a bridge collapses on your way to work or the company in which you work for whether owned by you or not fails? How does circumstances beyond your control fall under the umbrella of free will? Your answer might actually help me see this whole concept in a better light.

< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 9/30/2007 7:31:31 AM >

_____________________________

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Mark Twain

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 24

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 7:42:04 AM

Termyn8or

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Sorry, I seem to have misconstrued determinism. It means what happens was meant to happen ?

Didn't recognize the term, things are moving fast.

Mankind moved southward with the approach of the glaciers. Is this a valid example of determinism ? Or is it something else ? Something much more complex. Like because of the embargos and other factors, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor ?

Is it cause and effect or is it some belief that there is a script for life ? A script with minute details, from which we cannot deviate, even determining every letter I type right now ?

In that case I would say we have two diametrically opposed views here. But I can't dismiss either. If you are dealt a queen you bet, if you are dealt a duece you check or fold.

I think this thread is going to be busy. Hey perhaps, since it is Sunday morning, we could get church status and be tax ezempt.

Be well, and no hitting.

T

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 25

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 7:42:35 AM

kirii

Posts: 79
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I guess it would be a good idea to put in here why I lean towards determinism; much of it is linked to what I think free will implies.
To me, free will is nothing more than a moral choice; something that we employ when faced with a moral dilemma.
However, It is my thinking that our morals are determined by our past; what we have learned, been taught, seen, experienced, etc.
Based on what I know and believe about determinism; free will is nothing more than a choice that has already been pre-determined by my past.

edited because I keep forgetting to hit the right button

< Message edited by kirii -- 9/30/2007 7:43:26 AM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 7:47:14 AM

kirii

Posts: 79
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Sorry, I seem to have misconstrued determinism. It means what happens was meant to happen ?

Didn't recognize the term, things are moving fast.

Mankind moved southward with the approach of the glaciers. Is this a valid example of determinism ? Or is it something else ? Something much more complex. Like because of the embargos and other factors, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor ?

Is it cause and effect or is it some belief that there is a script for life ? A script with minute details, from which we cannot deviate, even determining every letter I type right now ?

In that case I would say we have two diametrically opposed views here. But I can't dismiss either. If you are dealt a queen you bet, if you are dealt a duece you check or fold.

I think this thread is going to be busy. Hey perhaps, since it is Sunday morning, we could get church status and be tax ezempt.

Be well, and no hitting.

T

Hello Termyn8tor
I follow the idea that determinism is the theory that all human action is caused entirely by preceding events; and not by the exercise of free will.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 27

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 7:56:29 AM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
'Not quite with you here, Full Circle, I'm struggling to grasp the notion that eating = slavery :-)

As long as you are dependant on someone else, as we all are, you are exploited for the needs of that person rather than your own. That I suppose is a limited point of view from somewhere midway up the corporate ladder. So lets say you have all the money in the world but you are still susceptible to illness and injury which in turn makes you dependant on other people once again. Freewill verses destiny is hard to prove as long as we are made to cater for the needs of others through our own needs.

Maybe you have all the money in the world and perfect health you may still have regret. True freewill would give you a chance to put right the mistakes you have made but as time always moves forwards and opportunities only last for a finite length of time we are powerless to fix all things wrong with our lives.

Maybe you have all the money in the world, perfect health and no regrets but then you’d probably think such a perfect life was always intended for you all along. Destiny right?

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(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 28

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 7:56:31 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Where does your environment come into this? Do you react to it, or are you free from it?

We aren't as free as we like to think we are, we often use the excuse of consequences and social pressure as a reason to remain within our comfort zones but it is probably something more fundemental than that that keeps us within our comfort zone. There is a high proportion of mental illness in immigrants and other alienating situations people put themselves through or find themselves in.

We often talk about free will and freedom of the individual in the west where such philosophical concepts have been invented but we have never embraced the idea, not even in America where such concepts are written into the constitution. America has a very conforming society, more so than many western European countries where community is valued higher than in the US. This is for a reason, people are social animals and we can't escape that fact, it is what we are. Our free will has a very narrow spectrum in reality and all the philosophical chatter about free will is not going to change that.

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Post #: 29

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 8:01:36 AM

FullCircle

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As UR2Badored alluded to:

Some things happen beyond our control such as illness and injury. No one wants these things and if freewill existed no one would get these things. Freewill is me deciding to walk from A to C safely. Destiny is me getting hit by a bus at B.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 9/30/2007 8:12:59 AM >

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Post #: 30

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 8:30:16 AM

Termyn8or

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I think I am guilty as the next, in taking this in the wrong direction.

If it is to be free will vs determinism, it is a much deeper subject. Gawd I didn't want to sit here all day, but this is an interesting topic.

Let's throw some spin into it, it may help to figure this out. I wrote a story in which time travel is possible, and five people went back to the past to advance technology, cheating basically. Just having written that is prima facie evidence that I must give some weight to the determinism argument.

A thought just occurred to me, the five who went into the past to see each other and bring back future technology seem to have exercised free will. But was it their upbringing and life experience that actually directed them to do it ? Was it all a part of what was supposed to happen ? Of course these are fictional characters, but who cares ? In this context their actions could be analyzed as well as real people, if their technology existed, or in this case, hypothetically.

Now we get to the point I think. If a group of five people go see each other in the past to pass back modern technology, think of it. You would go see a former version of one of your friends and have a detailed history, a future history of their life. They would not be able to deviate much from the said course, because if they bought a different house or took a different job you may have never met. So when you show up in their livingroom, you say "I am from the future, I am the guy you met about a month ago". Then you must give hime what boils down to a script for his life. Indeed it would be what his choices actually were, but some are critical and if he makes a change in the timeline, it blows the whole game.

OK, back to reality. If someone has the free will to decide to fuck me over or help me out, what subsequent decisions I might make will be based on that.

So, as ironic as it may seem, perhaps determinism and free will concepts are one and the same. Perhaps it is all in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps they are components of one another, like the Yin and the Yang.

Perhap we'll never know. Your turn.

T

(in reply to FullCircle)

Post #: 31

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 8:37:42 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

As UR2Badored alluded to:

Some things happen beyond our control such as illness and injury. No one wants these things and if freewill existed no one would get these things. Freewill is me deciding to walk from A to C safely. Destiny is me getting hit by a bus at B.

Free will is going into your bosses office and telling him/her how you really feel. Politics is what keeps you doing the drudgery and muttering under your dissatisfaction under your breath.

Yes, you have the freedom to go in there and tell your boss he/she is talkiing bollocks, the chances are you won't because you really aren't that free.

So much for free will. We rarely use it because we aren't that free but we like to think we have it because it makes us feel better about ourselves.

Free will requires a bravery and fool hardiness that most of us don't have but we will claim to have.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/30/2007 8:40:55 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 32

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 8:38:42 AM

FullCircle

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Joined: 11/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Now we get to the point I think. If a group of five people go see each other in the past to pass back modern technology, think of it. You would go see a former version of one of your friends and have a detailed history, a future history of their life. They would not be able to deviate much from the said course, because if they bought a different house or took a different job you may have never met. So when you show up in their livingroom, you say "I am from the future, I am the guy you met about a month ago". Then you must give hime what boils down to a script for his life. Indeed it would be what his choices actually were, but some are critical and if he makes a change in the timeline, it blows the whole game.

This is where people start talking about parallel universes because the script of the friend’s life you hand to him he may not follow. In reality he becomes two people at that point one in the universe you are familiar with and one in the universe where he has altered your script of his life and so takes another path.

He may feel he can take shortcuts to the same ultimate goal and will do so. That is what he considers his freewill and is hard for him to act against.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 9/30/2007 8:54:23 AM >

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∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 33

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 8:48:54 AM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Yes, you have the freedom to go in there and tell your boss he/she is talkiing bollocks, the chances are you won't because you really aren't that free.

A slave can have certain freedoms that others don’t. Freedom and freewill are two different things sometimes.

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∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 34

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 8:52:03 AM

Lumus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

What are your thoughts on the concept of free will?

Has anyone here ever played chess?

If so, then you knw that you begin with a small, set series of choices. As the environment of the board changes, the choices available increase; and as action and reaction occur, the choices slowly dwindle in number until there are none.

While simplistic in concept, I think it may be applied to life if one accepts that it suits as a generalization.

Free will is, to my mind, acknowledging that there is always more than one option, and that we have the ability to choose whatever option we like, for whatever motivations, and that said choice is ours to make. By this definition I would agree that free will exists conceptually [to our perceptions, conditionally, as there are times when it simply may not apply]. It cannot always be enacted due to inherent restrictions, which can range anywhere from moral compulsion to physics.

Within the framework of the perceptions we possess, then, free will is possible. Most people would prefer to argue it is or it isn't; I find that a bit too limiting and a trifle dishonest, as far as perceptions versus reality goes.

Tipping the hat to determinism, the same generality applies. One may state that every outcome can be pretermined in an almost callous, precise, mathematical, Einsteinian way. However, while this may be comforting and appealing to the rational, logical mindset, it presumes that 2+2 is 4 until the universe, in her infinite wisdom, brings large values of 2 into the picture. I suspect that, like Einstein, if one embraces that all things may be calculated down to predictable outcomes one is bound to turn religious; for what is a divine entity if not a being capable of conceiving all actions and reactions? We mere mortals are fallible, and so, it follows that we cannot calculate all outcomes, which means in turn we can only assume it exists. Thus, conceptually, determinism may be possible within the perceptions we possess; it cannot be taken as hard fact because frankly, we are not divine.

I'll stick with the Lumus theory. It states that the Universe is just a spinning coin, gleaming brilliantly. Which side of the coin are you gazing upon as it spins - and would you even recognize the side in question, for the speed at which the coin spins? In this instance, let's be blase and assume free will is stamped indelibly on one side, determinism on the other. When you gaze upon a spinning coin its dance may seem a blur, so are you seeing free will; determinism; the blurred vagaries that lie in the middle? The coin is chaos, and your perceptions are the logic trying to stop the coin's motion.

Concept is not fact, only the mask of wooden fact made from intellectual shavings. To flatly state choice is one thing or another is ignorance based on what we think we know. I'll happily accept my ignorance of answers that only perfect beings can truly know, if for no other reason that I am imperfect, in an imperfect universe, and relate better to my imperfect environment when I live in it, rather than trying to conceive it.

[Besides...birth is for girls. I'm a boy. I has a penis.]

*slips out before thinking too hard so he can live hard instead*

_____________________________

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~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 35

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 8:52:10 AM

kirii

Posts: 79
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LOL
I did ask at the start if he wanted a discussion such as this or if he was referring more towards another angle; I was told to take it off in any direction that I felt like going J
You are correct though that a discussion of determinism vs. free will is a much deeper concept than what the original OP was asking for. I find it a fascinating concept though; one that is hard to defend on either side.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 36

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 8:57:51 AM

kirii

Posts: 79
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I think that much of the trouble though arises when we try to adhere one single definition to what we think free will is. It’s not possible, simply because every person’s perception will differ.
Using only what I use to define free will, determinism wins out within the argument; if I was to instead use the definition that Lumus presents; I am sure that my argument would change.
Either way, I am finding that this discussion could and most probably will take many twists and turns before coming to an end J I am enjoying it immensely so far.

(in reply to Lumus)

Post #: 37

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 9:11:20 AM

kirii

Posts: 79
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quote:

A thought just occurred to me, the five who went into the past to see each other and bring back future technology seem to have exercised free will. But was it their upbringing and life experience that actually directed them to do it ? Was it all a part of what was supposed to happen ? Of course these are fictional characters, but who cares ? In this context their actions could be analyzed as well as real people, if their technology existed, or in this case, hypothetically.

Termyn8tor
This is the portion of your post that got me.
It was a choice to go back in time; a choice exercised by free will ( according to what you have stated here ). But… what was the deciding factor in going back in time? What knowledge did they hold that said to them ‘ this must be changed?”
If free will is based on moralities ( which are something learned, taught, seen, experienced etc ), then their present moral decisions dictated that they go back and change something. Yet, these moral decisions are based on something that has already happened.
LOL I love the possibilities that a discussion such as this can bring about.
Did you ever see the movie Swinging Doors? It almost mirrors the concept of determinism vs. free will.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 38

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 9:12:30 AM

FullCircle

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If you wanted to prove freewill existed you would go back in time and make a different choice in life, you can’t do that so you can’t prove it exists. We are not the only ones that make choices in this world; you’ll see patterns where different things are making the same choices over and over again. They make these choices because it suits them and they know it’s what they need to do. Freewill is therefore like putting a gun to your head, pulling the trigger and expecting anything other than death to follow. Freewill is abandoning everything you have been told by others you mustn’t do and doing it. So who really has freewill?

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 9/30/2007 9:13:08 AM >

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∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

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Post #: 39

RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 9:23:21 AM

kirii

Posts: 79
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

If you wanted to prove freewill existed you would go back in time and make a different choice in life, you can’t do that so you can’t prove it exists. We are not the only ones that make choices in this world; you’ll see patterns where different things are making the same choices over and over again. They make these choices because it suits them and they know it’s what they need to do. Freewill is therefore like putting a gun to your head, pulling the trigger and expecting anything other than death to follow. Freewill is abandoning everything you have been told by others you mustn’t do and doing it. So who really has freewill?

FullCircle
I will be honest and say that I do not believe wholly that there is such a thing as free will; not in the context that most seem to be utilizing it. To me, free will Is nothing more than a moral choice that is made based on past experiences and events.
If I decide not to break the law, it is a moral choice based on what I have been taught, seen, and experienced. The same can be said for deciding to break the law; I am doing so based on what I have learned, seen experienced or been taught.
These moral decisions are based on events which tells me that to repeat them would be either disastrous or rewarding.

(in reply to FullCircle)

Post #: 40

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