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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 9:37:52 AM   
curiosone


Posts: 20
Joined: 9/15/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		lol, i thought it said free wii at first.... i got all excited....

(in reply to kirii)
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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 3:09:57 PM   
chiaThePet


Posts: 2694
Joined: 2/4/2007
Status: offline 		Free Will?

i dunno, it all depends on what he's been charged with.

chia* (the pet)

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 3:21:33 PM   
FullCircle


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Joined: 11/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet
Free Will?
i dunno, it all depends on what he's been charged with.
chia* (the pet)

 I liked that. 

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∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 3:33:55 PM   
CuriousLord


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

What are your thoughts on the concept of free will?


We're chemical reactions.  Our "will" follows from this. 

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 3:41:24 PM   
honestsub4real


Posts: 22
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline 		lmao again at chiaThePet---free will??? That to me is something that all have as humans, if you decide to relinquish it to someone, it will remain there always humanly but you are free...............free will is human but also an option.

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 4:15:01 PM   
kirii


Posts: 79
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

Free Will?

i dunno, it all depends on what he's been charged with.

chia* (the pet)

LOL chiathepet, that got a chuckle out of me also.

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 4:32:25 PM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		Free Will.

No matter the consiquence, law, or loss, we can choose to try to do or not to do what we want. We may not always get what we want, but we don't have to do what we don't want. We always have to choice to do or atleast try and then we may choose to do nothing at all. 

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 10:57:56 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		One of my favorite Star Trek episodes was written by Harlan Ellison, and posited the Enterprise going back in time, where (as usual) Captain Kirk fell in love with a woman and took his shirt off.

Spock pointed out that she had to die at a certain and a certain place, or a horrible war would happen which would result in the Enterprise and the Star Fleet never happening.

Kirk was torn endlessly by his morals and emotions, and Spock kept telling him that she had to die at this certain time and certain place.

So her footsteps were planted in place by whoever, and she was led to her death in the cosmic dance.

And Kirk cried into Spocks chest (a subtle homo/vulco eroticism thingie, I guess) as she was splattered by a car in front of him

I am not sure what that has to do with Free Will or Determinism.  I tend to think people are an amalgam of everything that they have experienced, everything they are genetically, and everything else.  Yet, a part of my mind is dismissive of every decision I make being determined by my past.  I have certain things which I believe.  Certain approaches I take in life when faced with a choice.  Am I slave of my past?  Or has my past given me a wisdom to more effectively utilize my free will?

I dont know.  But I have been brought to this point in the universe, with these attitudes, and this way of thinking, and I personally require for my own sanity to have the idea that I am not simply dancing the preordained steps of a cosmic clockmaker.

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy

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"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 11:13:40 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Lumas, good post.

kirii, the same, and as to your question about the time travelers. They were patriots, they wanted to assure that the US had the best technology. Their personal morality said that they should do this because we can, and that means so can others. We had to be the first ones there.

The GOF did this and did not reveal the higher technology to the world, not even the government. They could probably take over the world in a matter of minutes with technology estimated to be 500 years advanced, and that is from the 25th century.

But they are patriots and moral Men, and the leader of the group set up a system to track time travel, in case anyone else gets the idea. And he stops them. Of course time travel into the past is illegal, but now that we are on top, oh well. Too late to do anything now.

Tyrants ? Not at all. We are the guarantors that the government will heed the Constitution. We can wipe them out in minutes, but they know we won't, unless.....We masquerade as an agency of the government, but we are totally independent. Totally.

So five people, four of whose Grandfathers died in the last war got together, and got this plan going.

Just what has made Man burn, kill, loot and pillage the plummage ? If you say that someone deciding to do this is predestined to do it, have we the right to punish them ? Or is the punishment also ordained ?

This subject is a Pandora's box full of Pandora's boxes. So far so good.

T

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 11:40:39 PM   
Termyn8or


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Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Sinergy, sorry, I didn't see your post when I posted my po,,,,,,oh shit it's happening again.

OK, I really was not aware that episode was not written by Roddenberry. While your recollection of it seems to be a bit embellished, you have obviously seen it or read some serious detail.

To give you the realistic, three beer view of it, here goes. Bones accidentally got hypoed with a super powerful drug that made him insane. They were orbiting this planet investigating a ripple in time constants or whatever, and the transporter had been set to the surface of the planet, near the source of the emanations.

When Bones went nuts he beamed his ass down there all the sudden and jumped into this time portal thing. After you watch the whole thing it comes clear that he had saved this Woman's ass one day from getting hit by a car. Spock did tell him, but there was no hounding, nothing like that. I remember the scene where Kirk stops Bones from saving her, he says "Do you know what you just did ?", then Spock says "Yes, he does".

Actually I have not found a piece of time travel fiction to make complete sense, not even mine. I did my best but I could pick it apart, and have. It is imperfect, as was Star Trek, and everything else I have seen or read. It seems the subject is actually too complicated. In one case, the season finale and the next opener were just about a decent movie about it. But there are still points to ponder. Some things do not make sense, and I don't think they ever will.

Such as it is with this argument. We have the free will theory which says I can type any letters I want. Then we have the theory that every letter I type, I want to type because of events in the past.

I really don't want to be a stick in the mud, but I think we have a stalemate here.

T

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/1/2007 5:01:06 AM   
kirii


Posts: 79
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LOL termyn8to
It is such an interesting dilemma, is it not? That is why I find the subject so interesting; the possibilities are endless.
One statement you made said ‘if you say that someone deciding to this is predestined to do it, have we the right to punish them? Or is the punishment also ordained?”
I think the real question that should be asked is instead “ if someone breaks the law, ( and we are using the argument that they were destined to do so because of the past ), is the punishment that is given already decided also because of the past.”
I don’t think the statement of ‘do we have the right to punish them’ would work because it has already been decided that punishment is needed.
Of course, as already stated, it could also take a turn the other way.
It could have already been decided that punishment was not needed.
LMAO I love the possibilities that can arise from a discussion such as this.
Our decisions in life are based on something in the past; naturally, if the past is changed, our decisions would be different; but it still does not change the fact that they are still based on an event or happening from the past. The real question is trying to figure out how much of an influence the past has on the present and future.
Free will is only employed when we are influenced to act a certain way.

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/1/2007 5:08:01 AM   
kirii


Posts: 79
Status: offline
Sinergy
You said that ‘you have certain things which you believe. Certain approaches that you take in life when faced with a choice.”
You then go on to say ‘am I a slave of my past? Or has your past given you a wisdom to more effectively utilize your free will”
Those approaches that you take in life when faced with a choice; what are they based on?
Morals? Ideas? Beliefs?
How did you attain these morals, ideas and beliefs?
Just as a side, I would like to say that I like the argument that you bring and this is not an attempt to swing you around to my way of thinking lol. I am truly curious as to the answers that you bring.

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/1/2007 5:52:00 AM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		 
That is an interesting question you ask, kirii, as to how I arrived at my beliefs.

To reverse engineer all of them would take eons, and like all aspects of a system, could not really be
transplanted into a new system and show persistence.  In other words, there are too many variables
to say that if you cloned me and put me through what you thought was my life's experiences, I might
not turn out the way I am.

On the other hand, I think one particular aspect of my consciousness is easy to determine.  When I
was 8 years old I went to summer camp.  On the first day, the counselor made a statement that is
graven in my consciousness.  "We have 3000 campers coming through here every summer, and if
each of you throws one piece of trash on the ground, by summer's end we will be knee deep in
garbage."

I dont litter.  I pick up litter I find.  I drive what I thought was a reasonably (as far as one is possible
to own) non-polluting vehicle.  I try to avoid driving.  I moved closer to work because I was sick of
the carbon footprint I was leaving on the planet.  I dont support bond measures or politicians who
cannot say to me with a straight face, and prove by their voting records, that they have the interests
of my great- great- grandcihldren at heart.

All this because at a formative time in my life somebody made a comment relating my actions today
with the outcomes of tomorrow for other people, which has stuck with me all this time.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Free Will.... - 10/1/2007 6:06:34 AM   
kirii


Posts: 79
Status: offline
quote:

That is an interesting question you ask, kirii, as to how I arrived at my beliefs.

To reverse engineer all of them would take eons, and like all aspects of a system, could not really be
transplanted into a new system and show persistence.  In other words, there are too many variables
to say that if you cloned me and put me through what you thought was my life's experiences, I might
not turn out the way I am.


This right here, what you said, is what causes me to move towards determinism more than free will. And as you said, it is such an interesting question with so many possibilities that the variations are endless. And yet, from where I stand, I can not help but think that our actions in the present are dictated by the past; pre-determined. And yet, on the other side is the argument that the past was once the present J
LOL I am giving myself a headache.

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/1/2007 6:16:31 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Free Will: we aint got it. Its an illusion.
Whether our behaviour pattens are learned or intrinsic I do not know. But mentally free at any point in time  we are not.

Those who have some inner conflict which they cannot resolve know this only too well. Those who do not examine themselves mentally and are satisfied with what they have got believe they have chosen what in fact has been imposed on them.

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/1/2007 6:27:42 AM   
kirii


Posts: 79
Status: offline
quote:

Those who have some inner conflict which they cannot resolve know this only too well. Those who do not examine themselves mentally and are satisfied with what they have got believe they have chosen what in fact has been imposed on them.


Now this is a very interesting take on it; it gives me another angle from which to think about

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Free Will.... - 10/1/2007 7:30:26 AM   
UR2Badored


Posts: 506
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline 		I really find this fascinating.  Thank you Term, Meat, and everyone for clarifying some things for me.  Okay, going off on my own tangent again, because of my flawed perception.  I feel like if I say I believe in absolute free will that I would be somewhat implying that people dying of hunger in a third world country are doing so because they are not exercising their free will.  Am I the only person that feels sometimes that I am like a tough little steel ball in a pinball machine of life that is just being thrown around a bit and that my little decisions and my free will are futile for the most part? 

I guess I follow along these thoughts of Seeks
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave


Those who have some inner conflict which they cannot resolve know this only too well. Those who do not examine themselves mentally and are satisfied with what they have got believe they have chosen what in fact has been imposed on them.




< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 10/1/2007 7:39:50 AM >

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/1/2007 3:07:14 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline 		I see a few posts have generated regarding specific scenarios meant to measure the validity of free will and/or determinism.  I'd like to toss another overview into the arena, if I may:

I once indulged in philosophical discussion in a roleplay venue, using an old and dear character who is now neatly six feet under.  The persona was meant to be void of morals [or free, if you like], and was drawn into a debate on "fate versus choice" by another "good" or moral character.  Thinking in the veins of the persona I had taken upon myself, I came up with the following argument:

"When you speak of choice, you presume that we control our destiny.  If that is the case, and we earn our own consequences, then true freedom is mine, not yours.  You live by a 'code' that dictates what you may do, and accept the meager rewards that you are given.  I do only as I please, for my own pleasure, and reap the same rewards, if not greater ones.  We seem similar on the surface, but the very code that you use to define yourself limits your actions - makes them 'safe'.  No such code binds me.  I am free...you are not.
"When you speak of destiny, you presume that our fate hangs before us, pretermined, that all the endless paths are mapped out and we are merely wanderers on roads already paved.  If this is so, then any choice we make is already made for us.  The consequences are already meted out, and hang before us, in our temporal blind spot - the future.  Thus, I am still free, and you are not...as my destiny takes me to what I most desire, and your desires are constrained still within the scope of your moral vision.
"We are not gods, nor would I wish it so, for the tiresome burden of attending to mortals is not to my tastes...and you are hardly competent.  The truth of fate and choice is not my concern, only my desires, and their fulfillment.  If my choices, made by me, or made by some invisible puppeteer [or bricklayer, for who else would make our predestined paths?] bring me to my desires, then I am fulfilled either way.  I am content, and unfettered.  You are merely a slave.
"Do you still pity me...?"

Needless to say, the other player was quite flustered and annoyed with this little speech, and as was common with these two personas, weapons were drawn and curses muttered.  That was the other redeeming epiphany I had - that those who cannot refute you with words, yet are convinced you are wrong, will resort to violence because they have no other option.



Sorry for wandering a bit off the beaten path there, but I think the story holds a few interesting perspectives, in a humourous [if arrogant!] vein.


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RE: Free Will.... - 10/1/2007 3:12:44 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		i suspect i would love reading what you have to type-but that damn font hurts!

interesting thread tho-sorry for the mini hijack

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it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Free Will.... - 10/1/2007 6:34:49 PM   
kirii


Posts: 79
Status: offline
Lumus
All I can say is WOW. I like what you said here J

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