RE: Free Will....

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Free Will....

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Free Will....

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4] 5 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Free Will.... - 10/1/2007 6:39:32 PM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

"Those who have some inner conflict which they cannot resolve know this only too well. Those who do not examine themselves mentally and are satisfied with what they have got believe they have chosen what in fact has been imposed on them. "

It seems to me that one gets the choice in how they react to that which is imposed on them. Free will.

"Some things happen beyond our control such as illness and injury. No one wants these things and if freewill existed no one would get these things. Freewill is me deciding to walk from A to C safely. Destiny is me getting hit by a bus at B. "

If you got hit by a bus you chose to cross the street without looking carefully both ways. Perhaps you choose to stay up late the night before and were tired, or chose to cross the street drunk.

"Yes, you have the freedom to go in there and tell your boss he/she is talkiing bollocks, the chances are you won't because you really aren't that free.

So much for free will. We rarely use it because we aren't that free but we like to think we have it because it makes us feel better about ourselves.

Free will requires a bravery and fool hardiness that most of us don't have but we will claim to have. "

You also get several other choices, including preparing for another job, getting one and then telling the Boss off. Free will does not mean making negative choices, it means accepting the results of negative choices. Making choices with negative reprecusions does not define the exercise of choice.

You can think the Mod is unfair, and you get several choices in how to react. If you choose to quote her you get banned for 2 weeks. Or you can choose among many other choices (which I will try to remember in the future).

Free will, if it exists, does not mean Omnipitance, the ability to travel time and fix mistakes, or freedom from consequences. You have a box of poison, you can eat it or not. Some will choose to. Free will does not mean the lack of imposed choices. If you have no legs, you can't play in the NBA. However you can choose to be involved in basketball, perhaps in a non playing role, or in the Special Olympics. You can't choose to jump 40 ft in the air, you can choose to build a contraption that will fling you 40 ft in the air( probably a bad idea, unless you have a lake (without brain eating Amoebas) to land in).

Cl might be right, our thinking may just be the byproduct of chemical reactions, in a completely preordained universe, but I tend to think not. If you think you are simply a machine, there is no free will. Otherwise there is.

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)

Post #: 61

RE: Free Will.... - 10/1/2007 9:51:53 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

Free will can be an opportunity, an illusion, or at worst, an excuse for irresponsible behavior.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 62

RE: Free Will.... - 10/1/2007 9:54:28 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

I tend to believe that we are slaves to our uncontrolled passions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
In other words, to an extent, we're slaves to our environment?

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 63

RE: Free Will.... - 10/1/2007 10:08:37 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

My idea is this: Free will -we've all got it - whether we want it, or not.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 64

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 12:21:45 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kirii

J
Everything that happens does so for a reason; a cause.
Every action that a human performs is an event that was caused by ‘something’
(“ universal causality”)
When you add in the argument of free will, it is believed that human beings can change; therefore removing the idea that everything happens in an order predetermined.
I think ( not I believe ) that our ability to change though is based on past events ( things taught, learned, seen, etc ). It is this thinking that tells me that determinism is more prevalent than free will.

Hi Kirii,

I fully agree with the above; I'm certainly not a fatalist, and we do change according to our environment, but, as you say, the change is based on events and past experiences.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kirii

Hello termyn8to
In a nutshell, determinism is simply an argument against the concept of free will. I could quote the exact definition, but instead I will link it here for you so that you can pick the one that you like best J

I don't quite agree with this, though. Some believe determinism and free will are not mutually exclusive; I suppose it's a matter for extent. I fall into the bracket of compatibilism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kirii

Based on what I know and believe about determinism; free will is nothing more than a choice that has already been pre-determined by my past.

I agree with the general point, but free will can still be exercised within the boundaries of determinism. I suppose the matter for extent depends on whether someone believes there is such a thing as a soul, or id, or will, or instinct that betrays something of the real self, and is in opposition to the civilised human being. Yes, we make a decision based on past events and experiences, but there are a series of options open to us.

As an example, in a war situation, there is a loosening of moral code and law enforcement: there is an increased opportunity for conflict between the instinctive and the civilised human being. During WW1, very few prisoners were taken by the Germans and British, and there was a constant battle between the instinct to kill, and learned moral behaviour; much of the time, those trying to surrender were shot or bayoneted on the spot. To me, that is exercising free will; a series of options including adhering to moral codes or otherwise. I think this contest between adhering to moral code and law on the one hand, and instinct and self preservation on the other, exists in every day life, but to a lesser extent.

Maybe our slight difference of opinion is in how we define free will :-)

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 65

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 12:28:03 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

quote:

We can break the law, but the thought of jail or being a social outcast to friends and family prevents that.

Do we then have 'free will' if we obey a society's norms (mores and morals)? Or are we just merely following the will of the state/culture?

I choose not to break the law because a) it's in my interests (I don't fancy a spell in her majesty's big house) and b) I empathise with other people; I have no wish to murder or rape or whatever because it will destroy someone's life and c) Christian morals and law: do as would be done to etc.

You have the choice to conform or reject; you are able to exercise the person you are, even though that person has been shaped by his/her environment/genes etc.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to came4U)

Post #: 66

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 12:33:27 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

What are your thoughts on the concept of free will?

I'm free to eat a Ghirardelli dark chocolate bar for breakfast. Now, I might pay for that in a number of ways, but I AM exercising free will.

<giggle>

'Dunno about free will, but there's a case for discipline, here :-)

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 67

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 12:43:06 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored

My question to you though is do you think a choice is free will in itself despite a choice being made with limited options to an unforeseen outcome?

You'd have to explain what you mean by 'limited options' before I can give you an answer. As a note, Jean Paul Sartre rejected all values; he rejected the concept of family, he rejected order, he rejected government etc: he wasn't simply an existentialist philosopher, he actually lived his life according to his preaching. Now, there is evidence to suggest Sartre was a product of his childhood, but I think he exercised a free will that is common to all of us, but most of us choose to follow moral code, law and society's norms.

If you mean limited options based on past experience, then yes, we do have limited options, and I think we can exercise free will within the boundaries of those limited options: free will being the self, even though the self is grounded in the genes of mothers and fathers and his/her environment.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to UR2Badored)

Post #: 68

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 1:19:38 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Where does your environment come into this? Do you react to it, or are you free from it?

We aren't as free as we like to think we are

In the interests of balance, some like to think we aren't free in any way, shape or form; the reason being that this removes all alibis and excuses for when things take a turn for the worse, "it's all god's work" etc, it shifts responsibility to someone else.

Our friend Sartre certainly believed we are as free as birds, he thought that the victims of advertising, or government corruption etc, have chosen that life, and I've always believed that we get the government we deserve, so I agree with him in that respect.

So, in my mind, this isn't a matter for what we'd like to be, as many of us don't want to be free.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 69

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 1:24:01 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

General reply:

Work's getting in the way of my free will, so I'll have to come back to the other posts later. Cheers for the replies to all, I'm just starting to develop an interest in philosophy and psychology, so it's been interesting to read.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 70

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 1:48:37 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Where does your environment come into this? Do you react to it, or are you free from it?

We aren't as free as we like to think we are

In the interests of balance, some like to think we aren't free in any way, shape or form; the reason being that this removes all alibis and excuses for when things take a turn for the worse, "it's all god's work" etc, it shifts responsibility to someone else.

Our friend Sartre certainly believed we are as free as birds, he thought that the victims of advertising, or government corruption etc, have chosen that life, and I've always believed that we get the government we deserve, so I agree with him in that respect.

So, in my mind, this isn't a matter for what we'd like to be, as many of us don't want to be free.

It's a long time since I read Sartre but I think he accepted his ideas collapsed at the point of two free wills impacting and one becoming subjugated.

I also think that it is accepted that socialisation (brain washing) and experience determines future choices. I am thinking that if I said that black crime in London is higher than white crime (which it is or was when I lived there), you wouldn't say it ws the free choice of black people to be more criminal than white people, you would point to social factors and experience that created such behaviour.

Just look at cocieties and the degree of conformity in them. Either people by nature are conformists or they have a very limited imagination, probably a bit of both but we struggle with the limited imagination because we like to think we are intelligent but try to look at human beghaviour from the outside, we appear to have no more free will than other species. Surely, that is why we are knowingly destroying our own habitat and doing nothing of dsubstance about it.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 71

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 4:15:27 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

I've been thinking about this. If people operated on a level of free will, there wouldn't be pseudo sciences such as psychology, sociology and the prediction of human behaviour through mathmatical equations. We can argue how accurate such pseudo-sciences are but they are accurate enough and give qualitive results for many people to take them seriously. People operate on a level of stimuli, punishment and reward. There is some leeway for a certain level of deviant behaviour so society can change depending on the environment and other external conditions impacting on society. But on the whole people stay within socially defined limits.

Foucault argues that madness is socially defined and this is to limit free will and deviant behaviour. Certainly not all madness leads to self harm or the harming of a third person and most people considered mentally ill can look after their own welfare. Foucault suggests these 'mad' people could be operating free will, however, society is unable to tolerate free will because with free will comes a break down in society. I have a medical doctor friend who spent much of his career in psychiatric hospitals and since their closure he has remained in the psychiatric field. He said if you observe closely, psychiatrists with their patients, you very quickly start to wonder who is supposed to be mad. What the relationship becomes about, is who is controling who's behaviour. It is this sort of situation Foucault was interested in. Who is controling who and how free are we. How free is succumbing to someone elses wishes for the benefit of the whole? We often argue we are using free will when really we are responding to external forces (stimuli) putting pressure upon us to conform

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/2/2007 4:22:08 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 72

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 4:41:52 AM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline

I'm a bit surprised to read what I believe are quite superficial responses to this question. Free will is a much deeper concept than committing crime or behaving irresponsibly. IMO anyway. Because after all if you choose to commit a crime you can be said to be making a free choice.

"Free will" reaches deep down in to what we are, how we respond, what we think about ourselves and how we interact with those around us.
For example an extrovert attention seeker type will likely as not always behave in that way regardless of how appropriate that behaviour is. In polite society he may well be ignored and either he doesnt "get it" or senses something is going wrong but cant change .
Many many people do things that in their heart of hearts they know are not in their interests but plough on regardless.. eg eating/drinking too much.
Are they free. I think not !

I believe people can and do change but even then it doesnt follow that they are free; they have just learned that a different "me" gets better rewards. In other words a conditioned reflex just like Pavlov's dogs.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 73

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 5:06:17 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

Seeks. How many rebels and non-conformists operate outside the social norm? Very few and those that do we will never hear about them because they are operating on free will, most rebels and non-conformists are looking for reward. ie. winning society over to their values but then the values of most rebels and non-conformists are not altogether different from the norm. Take the American revolution, it changed little. The French revolution after so much violence changed little, as did the Russian revolution. This is because at a fundemental level we are all of the same species and the benefit to socity as a whole is for people to conform. There has to be some difference of values in society for society to change and adapt, for there is nothing so dangerous for a species as the inability to change and adapt.

I think the deeper we dig, the less personal identity we have and the more we have the identity of the species. If we were all fundementally different and thought differently, we wouldn't have a dociety.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 74

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 5:09:53 AM

kirii

Posts: 79
Status: offline

I tend to use the examples of ‘breaking the law’ because it seems to be what most identify with when speaking of something such as this. As Seeksfemslave said though, free will does go much deeper than just the surface. So, I am going to dig deep here J
What do I define as free will? For myself, it is the ability of an individual to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being, and not as a result of compulsion or predestination ( the definition from Encarta most closely aligns itself to my own thinking on this )
Taking that into account, I always associate free will with the argument of predestination; or determinism.
Seeksfemslave said “ free will reaches deep down in to what we are, how we respond, what we think about ourselves and how we interact with those around us” I do agree with this. BUT; our responses, our thoughts about ourselves, and the way we act with others are all LEARNED actions. We are taught from an early age what is right, what is wrong, what is black, what is white, and what COULD be seen as grey J Because of these teachings, we make a conscious choice on which path to take. This to me says that our choices have already been determined; we have three choices to make. Right, wrong, or somewhere in the middle riding the line. ( and this can be used in any aspect of life, in any decision that is made )
From what I see, the only way to have ABSOLUTE FREE WILL, is to employ it from the moment of birth, before we are taught or can experience ANYTHING. I think that most would agree that this is impossible to attain ( if not, then I would truly love to hear your thoughts on it )
Free will is nothing more than choices. Choices are made based on our life experiences, what we have learned, been taught, seen, etc. The different paths that a life can take based only on this are endless; yet, each path is still one that has been determined; and each variation of that path is based on the choices made.
The circle continues to go round and round J
I would not call myself a fatalist either; as I said the possibilities are endless in a scenario such as this; but I do think that our lives are pre-determined based on what we are taught, have learned, have experienced, etc. And because of this, free will, in my thinking, does not exist.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 75

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 5:39:45 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kirii

Free will is nothing more than choices. Choices are made based on our life experiences, what we have learned, been taught, seen, etc. The different paths that a life can take based only on this are endless; yet, each path is still one that has been determined; and each variation of that path is based on the choices made.

Basically we have been taught to operate to certain stimuli.

People keep talking about making different choices and determining their own life. Up to a point that is true but the vast and overwhelming majority of people are operating to the stimuli of reward and punishment and stay within the social norms.

I would exclude crime from being outside the social norm, it most obviously isn't outside the social norm or there wouldn't be so much of it. Crime is arbitarily defined by the powerful or by a social consensus. Criminals for many reasons might not be getting the reward stimuli of staying on one side of that arbitary boundary so operate on the otherside of that arbitary boundary, most probably because that is where they think they will get reward.

However, don't look at individuals. Focusing on an individual does make it appear that they are operating to free will and they do, within the defined limits of the social norm. Look at societies as a whole, people conform, that is how societies exist. If everyone was fundementally unique and operated to free will, we wouldn't be able to communicate or identify with each other. The idea of 'Free will' is a human construct and not a universal one at that, it doesn't really exist.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/2/2007 5:51:02 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to kirii)

Post #: 76

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 6:44:53 AM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Kirii
This to me says that our choices have already been determined; we have three choices to make. Right, wrong, or somewhere in the middle riding the line.

I believe that choices between right or wrong have very little to do with free will especially since there is no universal definition of Right/Wrong. I think you are confusing morality with free will.

Free will is a theoretical possibility but given the known suggestability of human minors it disappears very early on in life, if it was ever likely to develop anyway.

Human conciousness and motivation are such profound mysteries that I think no one really knows how free we are. Its just seems clear to me that many people respond to "things" in a rather fixed way somewhat like a computor, infinitely more complex, but slower and less reliable lol and capable of life threatening violence which incidently a computor could be were it so programmed.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 77

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 7:09:14 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

free will is when you actually dont care about stains on the sheets during intimate moments! lol

(in reply to kirii)

Post #: 78

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 9:07:15 AM

kirii

Posts: 79
Status: offline

quote:

I think you are confusing morality with free will.

LOL if you look backwards, you will find a post I made which not only explained what I saw as free will; but another which stated that no one will ever agree with mine because the idea itself is too large to pin down to one definition.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 79

RE: Free Will.... - 10/2/2007 12:04:57 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Look at societies as a whole, people conform, that is how societies exist.......the idea of 'Free will' is a human construct and not a universal one at that, it doesn't really exist.

I'm not convinced that conforming is akin to there being no free will.

It goes without saying that there are loads of ideas out there, and unless you're one of the 0.0000000001% who come up with something original, then we're all comforming to an idea; however, that doesn't mean it's not of our own accord. Free will isn't akin to being original.

If free will is the ability to make decisions free from external constraints, then I would agree that it doesn't exist; I'm guessing 99% of the world's population would do likewise, based on the obvious: genes, schooling, parenting etc.

If free will is the ability to make decisions of your own accord, then I would say we have free will. As an example, I hate being bossed about at work. Whenever I start a new job, there is always conflict for about 6-8 months because my boss will inevitably try and stamp her authority on the situation; the trick is to create some space for yourself by making yourself indispensable, which I do, and after the initial conflict they tend to back off and let me do my own thing within the wider strategy. Now, some would say that isn't in my interests because, sooner or later, I'm going to come across someone who isn't prepared to let that sort of thing go and it will backfire on me. It's good for my spirit, however :-) There is real choice there, I follow my own interests where the majority would say I'm not doing myself any favours.

By the way, not working is not an option because it provides the stability that we all crave: it's certainly in my interests.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 80

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4] 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Free Will....

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4] 5 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.109