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RE: Free Will.... - 10/3/2007 1:16:54 AM

meatcleaver

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I guess where we are differing is that you appear to be looking at free will on a micro level and I'm looking at free will on a macro level.

From day to day we have free will to make choices on a personal level within social and genetic constraints. But as you point out, we choose to limit the use of our free will because...not working is not an option because it provides the stability that we all crave. Which seems to support my point that we respond to stimuli of reward and punishment.

On the macro level, we are prisoners of our biology, genetic programming and upbringing and I see little evidence to the contrary. As a species we seem to have no more free will than any other species.

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/3/2007 5:44:14 AM

kirii

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NorthernGent
You said ‘if free will is the ability to make decisions of your own accord, then I will say we have free will”
May I ask what you would be basing those decisions on, if not ‘external’ influences? You decisions have to come from somewhere, something learned or experienced at some time in your life. Would you not agree? Or would you say instead that one is capable of making a decision completely void of all influences?
Curious as to your answer lol.

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/3/2007 7:01:18 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirii

May I ask what you would be basing those decisions on, if not ‘external’ influences? You decisions have to come from somewhere, something learned or experienced at some time in your life. Would you not agree? Or would you say instead that one is capable of making a decision completely void of all influences?
Curious as to your answer lol.

Which I suggest is the reason for the conformity. We have learnt how to get a reward and therefore we press the right triggers, we have also been socialized into certain behaviour patterns. Many people (maybe more than many) hate their jobs, don't like their partner too much and don't particularly like where they live, amongst other things but are unable to access this theorhetical 'free will' to escape. One in three people will suffer serious mental illness in their life, many due to the stresses of the above. People in society are largely like rats in a cage, they keep pressing the right buttons for a reward, when they get punishment for pushing the buttons they used to press for reward, they get stressed and become anxious, some break down. Mental illness in society would probably be a lot less if people were able to access this 'free will'. In so called free societies which are really capitalist societies, mental illness is many times more prominent than in more traditional societies. Many because of the uncertainty of living in a society with a fluid workforce and uncertainty job security and uncertainty of ones position in society(social support and resource security). It's a little ironic that societies that claim 'free will' put so much stress on its members that mental illness is so rife. Of course, mental illness is not so prominent because we alledgedly have free will but because of personal social insecurity, apparently something we could easily rectify by using our alledged free will. Foucault discusses how society manufactures mental illness due to the social need for conformity. Everyone that does the 9-5 is conforming. I find it amazing that for all the free will we have, just about everyone pushes the same buttons for reward. Yes, I agree, they maye pushing those buttons through free will but I ask, what is the point of free will if you end up doing the same thing as people do in dictatorships? The idea of free will is at best a political safety valve.

To quote Foucault In its function, the power to punish is not essentially different from that of curing or educating.

To quote Chomsky out of context. “If we choose, we can live in a world of comforting illusion.”

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/3/2007 7:20:35 AM >

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/3/2007 11:35:20 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

But as you point out, we choose to limit the use of our free will because...not working is not an option because it provides the stability that we all crave. Which seems to support my point that we respond to stimuli of reward and punishment.

The problem here is that we're into the realms of reading minds. There's an argument to the effect that stability is an in-built human need/instinct, rather than learned behaviour. Craving stability is not part of our persona; it's part of our essence (possibly, you'd have to ask Nietzsche, Freud, Schopenhaur and assorted German romanticists: they know all about it!).

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

As a species we seem to have no more free will than any other species.

Well, I think it's useful to examine ideas that distinguish us from other species: for example, mastering fire. Now, in this case, humans were able to develop an idea that led to agriculture, smelting, trading etc: we have the ability/ingenuity to forge ahead. To me, that suggests we have in-built factors that set us apart from other species. Admittedly, my knowledge of anthropology is limited at best, so feel free to point out the weakness in the argument.

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/3/2007 11:43:21 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirii

NorthernGent
You said ‘if free will is the ability to make decisions of your own accord, then I will say we have free will”
May I ask what you would be basing those decisions on, if not ‘external’ influences? You decisions have to come from somewhere, something learned or experienced at some time in your life. Would you not agree? Or would you say instead that one is capable of making a decision completely void of all influences?
Curious as to your answer lol.

I think we have a different take on "of your own accord".

As said, I have genes and I'm subject to external influences, but within that framework I can make life changing decisions, and that is how I would define "free will"; I appreciate those decisions will always be influenced by my past, but I have it within my grasp to change. The lack of a free will suggests to me acceptance or resignation.

I don't define free will to be decision making without external influence; it is clear that no such decision making is possible, and it follows that such a definition would render this conversation utterly pointless.

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/3/2007 5:11:55 PM

luckydog1

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A speicies is not an individual, and has no will or mind at all, free or otherwise.

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/4/2007 11:47:42 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

As a species we seem to have no more free will than any other species.

Well, I think it's useful to examine ideas that distinguish us from other species: for example, mastering fire. Now, in this case, humans were able to develop an idea that led to agriculture, smelting, trading etc: we have the ability/ingenuity to forge ahead. To me, that suggests we have in-built factors that set us apart from other species. Admittedly, my knowledge of anthropology is limited at best, so feel free to point out the weakness in the argument.

Most species have distinguishing factors but as evolutionary psychologists point out, at root, there is nothing unique in human strategies of survival. The tactics of individual group animals mixing selfish behaviour and cooperation to gain more resources is mirrored in many species and it often helps the group more than the individual creature. Evolutionsary psychologists also point out that much animal group behaviour is mirrored in human society. As for free choice and applying individual effort to gain reweard, last years OCED report on social mobility came to the conclusion there was less social mobility in the US and the UK than any other developed nation. The irony being that it is those countries that believe most in individual effort and freely made choices as being the best way for individuals to get on. According to the report, Japan, a country that believes in the group, has far more social mobility than either country. This seems to support my point that people are good at fooling themselves. While many people might feel they have got on in society, they have not moved up society's ranks but society has got richer and should society get poorer they are in for a rude awakening.

But the acid test of free will comes at a point of crisis, we are destroying our habitat but many people refuse to believe the evidence (fooling themselves?) and those that do accept the situation, seem unable to use their intelligence and free will to break their behaviour patterns. When people die for their country, even when their country is not in danger but they are in effect fighting a proxy war for their group leaders, they simply can't use their free will for their own benefit and refuse or run away. Yes some will break behaviour but there are even insects that break their behaviour patterns when they've hit their head against a wall often enough to register their current behaviour is pointless.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/4/2007 11:55:02 PM >

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/4/2007 11:50:43 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

A speicies is not an individual, and has no will or mind at all, free or otherwise.

A bird in a flock, a fish in a shoal, a bison in a herd, are all individuals and all acting individually but they are programmed so their individual behaviour is more beneficial to the whole species than the individual. It's the mechanism that allows some to be sacrificed so the species can survive. Human behaviour is more complex but the essentially the same. You see many human group pattterns of behaviour repeated in nature on an admittedly simpler level but they are there.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/4/2007 11:53:09 PM >

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/5/2007 11:21:17 AM

Termyn8or

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I think we are missing the point, but I do recognize that it is an elusive point, one that is very hard to nail down.

I think if we had the mental capacity to vicariously experience another's entire life, we could well predict what their next decision would be on any given matter. But realize that even if the technology existed, to actually read someone's whole mind, who has the wherewithall to step back from their own personna (without losing it permanently) and take all this in ? I mean if determinism is actually true, things that happened when you were five determine decisions you make when you are fifty.

And that is indisputable. Therefore determinism is indisputable, but that does not mean that it is to be accepted, it merely means that it cannot be disproved. But neither can free will.

I call it a stalemate, and we are just simply chasing our tail. But then dogs seem to enjoy it. I firmly believe the issue will never be resolved one way or another, but the subject does provide for some interesting discussion.

Now, whether by instinct, ordainment or free will I say this. Each and every one of you, take the opposite side. Give it a try. I have found it to be an interesting mental exercise. Like a lawyer, he could say "This N did it, he raped and robbed and killed the B, he is guilty as they come" and if asked what is he going to do "Try to get him off". That is his job.

I dunno how many people were into Star Trek TNG, but I remember an episode where someone wanted to disassemble Data. Reiker was charged with proving the case for this, and Piccard was to defend Data. The JAG told Reiker that if he slacks in his argument there would be a summary judgment that Data is a toaster, have him report for disassembly.

Sometime what makes you a whore makes you an honest person. For example if you are a lawyer and your client simply fesses up and says yup he did it, but it is your job to see that he is not convicted, that is your job. You can refuse but you better do it before taking that shitload of money. You then discuss what evidence there is, how it can be refuted and similar issues. You are not concerned with any morality whatsoever, if you take the case.

Your job and your work ethic are at stake, not what your client did. Your client has his own morals to deal with, and you have yours. You take his money you must do your best.

So, just for some practice, try defending the opposing point of view. That is if you can handle it.

T

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RE: Free Will.... - 10/10/2007 3:01:25 AM

ravenor

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Well I have missed quite a discussion now haven't I? I have to say the many views and possibilities expressed in the preceeding posts have been intrigueing. Lumus, I loved your roleplay charachters speech, and I applaud you both for your insight and your ability to immerse yourself in charachter, I don't recall a single Larp where I would have been able to mirror such expression of a charachters personality.

As to Free Will..... I have read much in just the past 10 minutes that has made me look closer at my opinions, and Kirii is right in her assertion that the conversation can go round and round forever. For indeed that is what I feel it doing within the confines of my own mind. We as humans have generally (I feel) needed to feel free. needed to feel that we have a choice. We struggle against restrictions (Bondage loving submissives excepted) and so we tell ourselves "I am here by my choice... I am here because I want to be" and full of that happy little glow we toddle off to the slave camps (be we slaves to whips or slaves to the wage) and I have to say In some respects I find Kirri's views on determinism beguiling. When I think of all the decisions I make, I can link most of them to my past... to things I have experienced or learnt, be it emotionaly or logically. And I sit.. and I think... what if all I am is my experiences, and all my experiences are driven by who people are, and their experiences , and that extends back.. over and over.. where did it all start? Who had the first experience. Was the big bang the universes first experience, an experience so massive and all encompassing that it dictated how my life and yours and everyone elses would play out? And now scientists are postulating that the universe existed before the big bang and did not expand from a point but from a small area, where is the deciding factor in that?

Such thoughts cannot be good for mental clarity. I had always thought myself free... but then freedom without limits.. is just a word. Are we all free.. for a given value of freedom?

I can think of only two outcomes.

1. Freedom and freewill exist, at some level and for some value, whether that be in conflict with the deterministic nature of our environment, or in balance with it or in total defiance of it. They are there and in some way allow us to shape what is to come.

2. Freedom and Free Will are an illusion, created by our minds to allow us to sleep at night. For if we truly faced the fact that all our lives are predetermined, that nothing we do matters because it will happen anyway, that we are nothing but immensely complicated computers, following our program, if we opened up the door, and stared out from our place of comfort, and truly saw the cold hard truth that existed outside our fragile circle of light.... what would we do?

*closes the door.. and sits by the fire*

Rav

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