quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


Spot on, Real0ne.

There's no doubt that religious fundamentalism stunts the growth of a nation; it's a controlling mechanism that removes the environment for ideas to flourish, particularly ideas of individual liberty. You only have to take a look at contintental Europe in the 1500 and 1600s to see how devastating Christian religious fundamentalism was: this partly explains why England, Holland and France forged ahead at the expense of Spain and Italy, but particularly Germany which was devastated by the Christian organised chaos. Incidentally, during this period, Christians were prescribing reading the bible as a cure for illnesses which the Greeks and Muslims realised were natural diseases many centuries prior to this period. It's easy to forget that the hospital is a Muslim invention. We get carried away because Christian nations have enjoyed a 300 year period of religious tolerance and the associated prosperity, but it certainly wasn't always like that, and, at times, Christian nations were relatively backward. It's also worth mentioning that the Middle East is not a hotbed for Islamic fundamentalism: if you've been, you'll know this to be the case; if you take all your information from the bollocks served up by the media and associated business allies, you'll falsely believe otherwise: ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

But that's the plan: initiate chaos in the Middle East, watch them squabble, further their weakness, and pick off their resources; where they appear to be getting their act together, e.g. Iran 1953, then step in to overthrow the government in order to prevent strong, democratic and prosperous nations in the Middle East that are in a position to control trade in that region.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

so what ever happened to live and let live?  reminds me of the henny penny meddling mother in law.

Then i suppose if we feel that we have the right to meddle in their lives its only fair that the elitists should set the standards and meddle in ours.

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ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Its not helpful to compare the excesses of Christianity in the past with the danger posed by Islam in the present.
Many Muslims still believe that the future is theirs  stemming in part from the indignities of the 11th century crusades and of course because Allah wills it.
Also Western presence in the Middle East upsets them This as I see it is non negotiable at the moment but if ever bio fuels or something similar become available then we can negotiate.

quote:

Meatcleaver
Islamic militancy is not because of a belief tomorrow is theirs but because of the opposite, their culture is failing.

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ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

MC: it is true that no Western advanced nation requires Islamic support for its survival but that is NOT the point.
First you simply cannot gloss over the West's total dependance on oil. That flow must be sustained by whatever means. Note the flow would not even exist were it not for Western expertise and development.

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

Someone earlier mentioned that Islam was having a hard time surviving in the modern world.

Last time I checked it was the fastest growing religion.

If westerners are converting to Islam or allowing Islamic immigration, that is of the west's own making and not the making of muslims.

The Islamic agenda in Europe is to establish a Caliphate. The plan is through increasing numbers and infiltrating all levels of society in European states.

What Islamic agenda? Who are these muslims? Where are they? This is just paranoia.

In the UK this is happening very effectively. We have a Muslim Council of Britain, which are consulted on policy yet have no legal status and are not even democratic and Prime Minister Brown as chancellor helped establish Shariah banking policies, I believe with their own tax rules.

The fact that a country is sensitive to the minorities in its midst is no bad thing. What would you do, set in motion a final solution? Hasn't Europe been here before?

There are also Shariah courts in every major city in the UK. They have no legal status and they do not respect UK law - whilst they are working underground at present, they are still not being shut down.

There are lots of people breaking laws and anyone breaking laws are punished, including muslims.

Add that to the fact that you cant say boo to a muslim in the UK, thanks to the muslim initiated (Muslim council of Britain) laws for inciting racial hatred and the fact that mosques are getting planning permission left right and centre and I would say Islam is having a reformation. And everyone should consider the coming religion initiated dark ages.

This is nonsense. The last person as far as I am aware who was prosecuted for inciting racial hatred was a muslim!

We have a strong movement in favour of faith schools in the UK as well.

Muslims point out that there are Christian and Jewish faith schools and want to be treated equally in that respect. The way to shut down muslim schools is to outlaw all faith schools. The government won't do that and with Britain being a country of equal rights, the muslims can have their schools too. Now in France, there are only state schools, no Christian schools, no Jewish schools and so no muslim schools.

The thing is, if I set up a place for children to come 5 times a day (and thats moderate islam) to be hypnotised and brain washed I think I would (rightly) be thrown in prison.

I think you ought to look at Christians and Jews, they also brain wash their kids in the same way.

Islam is one of the most extreme positions anyone can hold. The Koran, more so than other religious texts, is a madmans mandate for irrationality. They firmly believe that reality is miserable shite and paradise awaits. ANYONE who lives with that as a backdrop for their life needs locking up: then it can be true for them.

Have you read the bible lately? The first recorded genocide is in the bible and its on the orders of god.

Finally I have this to pose: Muslims say if you hurt one you hurt us all, but when it comes to taking collective responsibility for the actions of a few "madmen" you see nothing but complaint from the Islamic community. "Dont point the finger at us" etc.

They don't say don't point the finger at us. They say don't treat us all like terrorists.

Fuck the lot of them, and that includes all religions. If they cant live peacefully in non muslim/christian/whatever countries without trying convert everyone then if its them or me to die, I choose them.

I think you are nailing your racist colours to the mast here.

And before anyone gets on one about respecting beliefs let me just say beliefs can be reviewed and changed in light of facts, if you want to put the effort in. Anyone can do that every day. If someone wants to persist in believing a fairy tale thats none of my business, but if they start trying to make me believe it and respect it then it becomes entirely my business. In the UK today we have to tip toe around all kinds of bullshit without upsetting whichever deluded freak thinks its the word of God written on the page.

I think all religion is about believing in fairies but that doesn't alter the issue, people should be respected even if you can't respect their beliefs.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
MC: it is true that no Western advanced nation requires Islamic support for its survival but that is NOT the point.
First you simply cannot gloss over the West's total dependance on oil. That flow must be sustained by whatever means.

The west's dependence of oil is in its own control. The fact that western economic ideology promotes over consumption is a weakness of the west's own making and is not dependent in any way, shape or form on what resources Islamic nations have.

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ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
MC: it is true that no Western advanced nation requires Islamic support for its survival but that is NOT the point.
First you simply cannot gloss over the West's total dependance on oil. That flow must be sustained by whatever means.

The west's dependence of oil is in its own control. The fact that western economic ideology promotes over consumption is a weakness of the west's own making and is not dependent in any way, shape or form on what resources Islamic nations have.

Amongst the many valid points on many subjects you have made MC, tho' usually with an anti Western theme, thats just about the silliest  point you have ever made.
Any technically advanced economy will require large quantities of hydro carbons to produce just about everything. From the "commies" in  China to the "neo cons" in the US.
The political/economic position  is irrelevant.

Hair shirted PC thinkers might not agree lol

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

You have a good point. Islam's growth in Europe is something like 200%. But I think when you look at the past decade, Islam was allowed to grow. In other words there was very little resistance to it. That resistance is starting to grow especially recently in France where racial tensions are heating up. And you are starting to see that conflict between Islam and the modern world.

You are seeing this in Britain where there has recently been a wave of Islamic fundamentalism. So there is a clash of the culture starting to appear and this is going to be a growing problem for Europe over the next 20 years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Immigration, high birth rates religious zeal today ,coupled with the lunacy of PC thinking are IMO building up to catastrophic future social problems.

With regard to reform, I cant see how the "truth" can be reformed.
Christianity in Europe was controlled and came to accept that control. That is going to change IMO if only because of a backlash against Islamic presence and at the moment seeming preference dished out by guilty and IMO quite naive Liberals.

The balance of power in the Christian Church is shifting as we speak and those who may get control in the future almost certainly will not be so wishy washy as the current Archbishop of Canterbury.
We shall see !

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion
Islam is one of the most extreme positions anyone can hold. The Koran, more so than other religious texts, is a madmans mandate for irrationality. They firmly believe that reality is miserable shite and paradise awaits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

You have a good point. Islam's growth in Europe is something like 200%. But I think when you look at the past decade, Islam was allowed to grow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

Someone earlier mentioned that Islam was having a hard time surviving in the modern world.

Last time I checked it was the fastest growing religion.

If westerners are converting to Islam or allowing Islamic immigration, that is of the west's own making and not the making of muslims.
Does that change the fact that its the worlds fastest growing religion? No. It is a stated aim of Islam that conversion of infidels is a duty of every good muslim. So whilst its irrelevant to my point who's, as you like to put it, "making" it is, you also happen to be wrong. The export of idealogy is a central tenet of wahabist islam. The conversion of infidels a central tenet of all islam (and of course most other religions).

The Islamic agenda in Europe is to establish a Caliphate. The plan is through increasing numbers and infiltrating all levels of society in European states.

What Islamic agenda? Who are these muslims? Where are they? This is just paranoia.
 
The Islamic agenda of the Wahabist Muslims. These muslims are the most dangerous, to the western way of living. They are dispersed all over the place, but I believe the highest concentration is in the middle east. Saudi Arabia particularly. There are plenty in the UK and Europe who follow this aspect of Islam, and they are all muslim brothers so we are supposed to respect them all as the same - according to Islam.
Those are the facts. Wheres my paranoia?


In the UK this is happening very effectively. We have a Muslim Council of Britain, which are consulted on policy yet have no legal status and are not even democratic and Prime Minister Brown as chancellor helped establish Shariah banking policies, I believe with their own tax rules.

The fact that a country is sensitive to the minorities in its midst is no bad thing. What would you do, set in motion a final solution? Hasn't Europe been here before?
 
Actually I think sensitivity to minorities is extremely bad. Every time you protect the rights of a minority the rights of the majority are eroded. There should only be one protection: the rights of the individual. That way everyone regardless of race etc is protected. Thats what I would do. And please, get off the rather transparent character assassination to discredit a point. Discredit it with argument by all means. If you have a point I will absorb into my arsenal...pretty much opposite to the entrenched attitude you are displaying.


There are also Shariah courts in every major city in the UK. They have no legal status and they do not respect UK law - whilst they are working underground at present, they are still not being shut down.

There are lots of people breaking laws and anyone breaking laws are punished, including muslims.
 
Well, thats not the real world. Anyone breaking laws are punished? Unless you happen to be a judge, politician, priest or policeman. Oh yes, or criminal. Muslims are punished by UK law, I agree, when caught - however they are also administering their own sharia law, often in opposition to UK law, on each other. Thats not being bothered with by the authorities; these communities are the ones setting up the sharia courts illegally. Why would they be doing that if they didnt have an agenda? for a hobby?


Add that to the fact that you cant say boo to a muslim in the UK, thanks to the muslim initiated (Muslim council of Britain) laws for inciting racial ( I meant to say religious hatred here) hatred and the fact that mosques are getting planning permission left right and centre and I would say Islam is having a reformation. And everyone should consider the coming religion initiated dark ages.

This is nonsense. The last person as far as I am aware who was prosecuted for inciting racial hatred was a muslim!
 
That doesnt change the fact that the rest of us have to stomach all the religious nonsense of the deluded without saying what the reality is "This is nonsense and its a fairy tale and I dont respect your beliefs if its interefering with me living my life". Take the example of the vale worn by teachers at school or in the courtroom, or at passport control. You speak up against that, for perfectly valid reasons, and all hell breaks loose.


We have a strong movement in favour of faith schools in the UK as well.

Muslims point out that there are Christian and Jewish faith schools and want to be treated equally in that respect. The way to shut down muslim schools is to outlaw all faith schools. The government won't do that and with Britain being a country of equal rights, the muslims can have their schools too. Now in France, there are only state schools, no Christian schools, no Jewish schools and so no muslim schools.
 
I agree entirely with you here. I would certainly outlaw all faith schools; if you havent noticed I dont have time for any religion, not just Islam. Its just they happen to be the rising religion at the moment in my part of the world.


The thing is, if I set up a place for children to come 5 times a day (and thats moderate islam) to be hypnotised and brain washed I think I would (rightly) be thrown in prison.

I think you ought to look at Christians and Jews, they also brain wash their kids in the same way.
 
Very true, however the zeal seen in "moderate" Isam is not seen in moderate Judaism or moderate Christianity, at least in the UK. You have to find extremist forms of those religions to find an equivalent appetite for indoctrination. The fact is most people in the UK are Christian and never go to church. Most people in the UK who are Muslim, and thats not a small number, go to mosque daily, at least once, often several times. And the relevance of that is that the whole thing is hypnosis and indoctrination away from reality. A reality which they share with the rest of us and have a fucking responsibility to deal with for ALL of our benefits. Thats how societies grow and thrive: by dealing with reality. All the periods if History in Europe where there has been progress in society, which includes promotion of some of the ideals you would seem to hold dear, correlate with a direct opposite in the hold of religion on the people : and one big indicator of that is how much they actually attend church etc.

Islam is one of the most extreme positions anyone can hold. The Koran, more so than other religious texts, is a madmans mandate for irrationality. They firmly believe that reality is miserable shite and paradise awaits. ANYONE who lives with that as a backdrop for their life needs locking up: then it can be true for them.

Have you read the bible lately? The first recorded genocide is in the bible and its on the orders of god.
 
Do you really believe that is true? ie that GOD ordered a genocide? I think its more likely that a PERSON decided to do a bit of genocide and thought he would get some help by using the higher authority of GOD to hypnotise his colleagues. In any case it doesnt change what I said about the Qu'ran.


Finally I have this to pose: Muslims say if you hurt one you hurt us all, but when it comes to taking collective responsibility for the actions of a few "madmen" you see nothing but complaint from the Islamic community. "Dont point the finger at us" etc.

They don't say don't point the finger at us. They say don't treat us all like terrorists.
 
Well, thats the same thing isnt it. They are having the finger pointed at them by being treated like terrorists. You know what, the current terrorists ARE muslim, so muslims are probably a good place to start looking for terrorists. What do they expect? There is a lot of tacit and vocal approval within the muslim community for terrorist acts that kill people that have nothing to do with any war anywhere. That is a muslim phenomena in the UK where we have muslims stating "yeah we think the suicide bombers on the tube are heroes" That sounds a lot like support to me.


Fuck the lot of them, and that includes all religions. If they cant live peacefully in non muslim/christian/whatever countries without trying convert everyone then if its them or me to die, I choose them.

I think you are nailing your racist colours to the mast here.
 
Really? Since when was a religion a genetic characteristic you idiot? (idiocy may well be a genetic characteristic btw). Its a belief system - its subject to review and change. No mercy for you here, as I already explained this later....


And before anyone gets on one about respecting beliefs let me just say beliefs can be reviewed and changed in light of facts, if you want to put the effort in. Anyone can do that every day. If someone wants to persist in believing a fairy tale thats none of my business, but if they start trying to make me believe it and respect it then it becomes entirely my business. In the UK today we have to tip toe around all kinds of bullshit without upsetting whichever deluded freak thinks its the word of God written on the page.

I think all religion is about believing in fairies but that doesn't alter the issue, people should be respected even if you can't respect their beliefs.
 
Really? So do you respect paedophiles who are adamant they are doing the kids they destroy a favour? If so you must have nil respect for yourself. Get a backbone.
 
Often people can be respected inspite of their beliefs - but I am dealing with the belief part of them, not the whole of them. And sometimes a persons beliefs mean I cant respect them - racism is a good example.


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