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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Reagan also claimed to have brought the USSR down and Thatcher liked to claim her share of the of the glory too. What really brought the USSR down was that it was rotting from inside out from the day of its inception. East Europe was such a burden on the failing Soviet economy it was only a matter of when it would collapse. Pope John, Reagan and Thatcher just happened to be in place when it happened and there were people in place in the Kremlin that could see that Russia had to be reformed and couldn't go on like it had been. As PJ O'Rourke pointed out, 15 minutes spent in Moscow and one could see the Soviets couldn't organize a shopping trip never mind a war.

I’m not sure I want to respond to this because I know that claiming Reagan was anything other than a complete nincompoop, or the anti-Christ, or both, will bring out the fanatical, left wing loony Reagan haters. Still, I can’t just let it go.

This is a case of not realizing how wrong you are in being right. Yes the Soviet system was rotting at it’s core (an inevitable consequence of Marxist policies) but few were the people who saw that either because of willful blindness or simple ignorance. Our policy of containment (which was failing) was based on fear. Don’t upset the Soviets, treat them with kid gloves, they’re very powerful, we don’t want to get them angry.

People who grouse that Reagan deserves no credit because the Soviet Union was already weak and failing do not understand that in fact, he was amongst those few who saw that the Soviet Union wasn’t all that powerful. His policies were premised not on the need to weaken a powerful nation but to hasten the collapse of an already weak (but still dangerous) nation. His policies of economic isolation, military buildup, and moral posturing ("evil empire") were designed toward that end.

Pope John Paul II definitely played a major role (and, in fact, he started before Reagan came to office) in this and the two often co-ordinated their efforts (he and Reagan met several times and often talked by phone). That enormous influence of the Vatican came into play whenever the Pope would visit eastern Europe. It must have galled the communist governments to have to stand by while he told their people to have faith in God (who in communist countries, officially did not exist) and to resist communism. His open support of Solidarity is almost certainly why they tried to kill him.

The Right is distorting history (and engaging in myth making) when they claim that Ronald Reagan single handedly brought down the Soviet Union but it is an equal distortion on the Left’s part to say that he had no part in it and "just happened to be there when it happened." He and Pope John Paul II (with Maggie Thatcher in a supporting role) had a goal, devised a plan, and implemented it. Despite a few hitches, it ultimately worked.

I’m surprised that you read P. J. O’Rourke, one of my favorite authors. I’d have thought that his individualist, free market stance would not sit well with you.

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ORIGINAL: torchure

They'd [Christians] still torture....and kill if permitted to do so.

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ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


What's stopping them now?

Whatever is stopping the Christians from killing and torturing infidels sure isn't stopping the Islamists.

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

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ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


What's stopping them now?

Whatever is stopping the Christians from killing and torturing infidels sure isn't stopping the Islamists.

...given the US's recent record on torture, rendition and the like, what makes you so sure that they are being stopped?

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b


This is a case of not realizing how wrong you are in being right. Yes the Soviet system was rotting at it’s core (an inevitable consequence of Marxist policies) but few were the people who saw that either because of willful blindness or simple ignorance. Our policy of containment (which was failing) was based on fear. Don’t upset the Soviets, treat them with kid gloves, they’re very powerful, we don’t want to get them angry.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I’m surprised that you read P. J. O’Rourke, one of my favorite authors. I’d have thought that his individualist, free market stance would not sit well with you.

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

No gun crime in Manchester eh? Wow. NG you should get out more

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

How long was it since christians burned all those evil witches?

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne


I also think that if islam is so horrible than why are modern educated people so attracted to it at a rate of 200%, or are we getting dumber? 

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

No gun crime in Manchester eh? Wow. NG you should get out more

This pretty much tells me everything I need to know about you; it seems that you prefer to deal in second hand stories from the likes of Seeksfemslave, rather than reality. End of chat.

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ORIGINAL: torchure

This whole discussion in this venue makes me laugh nearly hysterically. Oh, the irony. Islam means submission. One might think that in a board based, in large part, on submission would perhaps have less of a difficult time understanding what that might mean. Of course, one could also look at it like a giant my-dom-is-better-than-your-dom pissing contest. LOLZ

Oh, and on the exporting of religion/conversion of infidels, let us not forget that xtianity shares this attitude. While numerous examples from the last 1600 years or so would clearly illustrate this, my personal favorite, and least damaging by far, is the series of books that I found on my Southern Baptist grandmother's shelves one summer.
- Winning souls for Christ
- Winning souls for Christ, 2
- Advanced winning souls for Christ

They'd still torture (oh, that's hillarious given the venue) and kill if permitted to do so.

Oh, and for those of you intent on laying all the world's ills at the feet of Muslim's, check out the concept of Premillenial Dispensationalism, and in particular the teachings of the likes of John Nelson Darby. Want Jesus back? No problem. Here's a list of evils that have to occur for it to take place. We just have to bring them about.

Have fun, y'all.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne


I also think that if islam is so horrible than why are modern educated people so attracted to it at a rate of 200%, or are we getting dumber? 

Real0ne, the 200% comment is nonsense. From what I can gather, young Englishmen/women are not interested in swapping Christianity for Islam; they're seen as two sides of the same coin: young religious people are turning to spirituality. The Christian church in England is being propped up by immigrants from Africa; Islam is growing in Europe because of increasing numbers of immigrants, not because of conversion by the natives.

John Locke would have something to say about this perceived or real threat; the event is the same, but two people see it differently: one views Islam as a threat and wants it outlawed, the other views Islam as the expression of individual choice and wants to embrace difference. It says more about the mindset of the two individuals than it does about Islam; one wants to control others' beliefs and engage in religious persecution, the other wants to live and let live.

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion
Agreed. But I would expand that to say all religion means submission to a fraud - its all deceiving those looking for guidance and leadership and it all works through hypnosis and the con of a higher authority based on an illusion.

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Islam happens to be particularly active at the moment in this part of the world; its just one of the heads of the hydra of religion. What I find baffling is the zealous defense of a liberal position which means that the hydra wins. Theres a time to be liberal and a time to draw a line. People seem to think you can have one without the other, whereas I have only observed that, rather like rights and responsibilies, they only work as a pair

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ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

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ORIGINAL: torchure

They'd [Christians] still torture....and kill if permitted to do so.

What's stopping them now?

Whatever is stopping the Christians from killing and torturing infidels sure isn't stopping the Islamists.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

General reply:

Does Islam need a reform period?

1) South East Asian countries certainly do; the Afghans and Pakistanis are living in grinding poverty, which in turn is promoting the trading of opium as the only viable source of income for some. Much of the heroin coming into Britain has its roots in Afghanistan, so it's in our own interests to promote a more prosperous Afghanistan, which in turn requires an open society rather than fundamentalism.

2) The majority of Middle Eastern countries are anti-fundamentalism; they are fearful of fundamentalism because it has the ability to restrict their freedom and way of life. The Saudis, of course, are an indicator of the exception. The Middle Eastern countries know full well that the reform they need is putting an end to Western influence in the region. Iran knows better than most that the West (particularly the democracy/freedom loving/spreading US government) does not want a stable and prosperous Middle East, so they're trying to do something about it: if they can obtain nukes, then it sets an example for Egypt and a couple of others, and then they have something to act as a bargaining tool. They've learned the lessons from 1953, 1979 and Iraq: if you don't have nukes, then you better get some because the Americans and assorted Allies will attempt to impose their will.

How does not having nuclear weapons stop Iran becoming a modern democratic nation with a thriving economy and equality etc, when they have all that oil? The leadership there seems to be quite prepared to use them as soon as they have them - is that a chance worth taking? Would you be happy to see a regime of that calibre with nuclear weapons? How does having nuclear weapons encourage them to get their own house in order? It doesnt seem to have made anyone else bother.

'Thing is, this toing and froing, it's a single grain in the sands of time; the Middle East will end the dominance sooner or later, it's just a case of how many people have to die in the process. Humans seem to want to learn the hard way: from death and destruction.

Well thats true of some humans - not all, and if people want death and destruction thats their choice, but we dont all want it. There are plenty of people who think that death and destruction is not the way they want to learn. Its only leaders that think like this actually. Your normal day to day person would rather not bother.
 
Isnt to say "its a single grain in the sands of time"  just a way of not having to really put any serious hard work thought into things? Thats not how any progress is ever made in life or society.


Edited to add: I'd be interested to know what people actually know about Islam and the Islamic countries; if the answer is not very much, then there is no informed opinion on whether or not Islam needs reform.

I would be interested to know what YOU know about both Islam and non islam. What makes you think you are holding any position to act as the authority on the subject?
 
Personally I deal first hand with Muslims on a daily basis, I live next door to a mosque. I have attended another mosque out of curiosity many years ago. I have also attended gatherings and met the then leader of the Sufi movement, and had a personal introduction and discussion with him. I knew a personal student of this man for many years, and have had dealings with another two scholars of Islam. I have taught two muslims part of their professional CV over a three year period, and I have had a relationship with a Muslim woman (and that was pretty difficult due to the totally intolerant and illiberal attitudes of her family and even muslim work colleagues).
 
I have also dealt with around 20  muslims in my professional work.

A close personal friend deals with helping those who have immigrated find their way in the UK. A lot of these people are from an Islamic background
 
I have an aquaintance who works in a Muslim run business and because she is a woman, and non muslim, has observed she has no status at all at work.
 
I have a copy of the Qu'ran on my shelf which is about as well read as the bible - ie not that much.
 
And after this experience of Islam I fail to be impressed with the effect this religion has on its followers, I consider it a disabling influence on people ability to function in life, in society and to be happy in themselves. More so than other religions that I have personally encountered with catholicism hot on its heels, although I am not blind to the fact that they are all bad for people in these ways if extreme.

I also live in a country where there have been several terrorist atrocities carried out by muslims in the name of Islam and have observed young muslims, who apperantly seem unconnected, voice support for these acts. I have also heard groups of Muslims discussing their feelings about being in the UK, in pretty unflattering terms and showing a scant regard for the affluence they enjoy, but do not themselves contribute to. One of my pakistani friends even pointed out to them that if they were back in Pakistan they would be her servants, and they should be thankful they live in a western democracy. It didnt seem to wake them up.
 
Thats a real life Islam in the UK experience of a non muslim. Not from the papers, not from a book. Whatever the scholarly say about Islam, what these people follow and how they are is what counts.
 
I have met a handful of Muslims who I couldnt say a wrong word about - but the one thing they all had in common? Liberal attitudes and pleased to be contributing to the UK and not interested in following the religious teachings of the "moderate" islamic masses in this country. In other words the islamic equivalent of non practicing christians.
 
And yourself?

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion
How does not having nuclear weapons stop Iran becoming a modern democratic nation with a thriving economy and equality etc, when they have all that oil? The leadership there seems to be quite prepared to use them as soon as they have them - is that a chance worth taking? Would you be happy to see a regime of that calibre with nuclear weapons? How does having nuclear weapons encourage them to get their own house in order? It doesnt seem to have made anyone else bother.

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And after this experience of Islam I fail to be impressed with the effect this religion has on its followers, I consider it a disabling influence on people ability to function in life, in society and to be happy in themselves. More so than other religions that I have personally encountered with catholicism hot on its heels, although I am not blind to the fact that they are all bad for people in these ways if extreme.