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Meatcleaver
If a country has resources and another hasn't, that is tough and irrelevent as to whether one country is Muslim or not.

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The Vatican is recognized as a state not a nation. There are two thousand redsidents in Vatican city, none hold Vatican nationality. It is so small as to be pointless but even if the Pope held sway over all its members which it doesn't, many, if not most Catholics ignore papal edicts, Catholics wouldn't be the most powerful religious group. The most powerful religious group in the world at the moment are Christian fundementalists in the US. When the US has got them back in the box perhaps there is hope that the west can form a strategy against Islamic extremists that would help separate them from the Islamic masses. At the moment, US policy is giving the Islamic extremists sympathy amongst the Islamic masses.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

He may have not been so contemptuous if had lived to see how Pope John Paul II used his power to help free Poland, the rest of Eastern Europe, and to bring down the Soviet Union. That kind of power alone warrants a seat at the table. Like the great man said, "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." Not that I regard the Vatican as an enemy but it is foolish to ignore power.

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ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

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Meatcleaver
If a country has resources and another hasn't, that is tough and irrelevent as to whether one country is Muslim or not.

With regard to places like Saudi Arabia it  most definately is not irrelevent. Committed Muslims want the US out of there. Why ? Because they are considered infidels defiling the Holy Land. Then they could return to the primitive pristine life styles that they seem to desire so much.
If the West develops alternative fuels hopefully they will get their wish lol

Another point, it is not likely that places like Dubai and Quatar would be developing so fast were it not for Oil revenues and civil engineering expertise provided by the "wicked" West.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion
Islam is one of the most extreme positions anyone can hold. The Koran, more so than other religious texts, is a madmans mandate for irrationality. They firmly believe that reality is miserable shite and paradise awaits.

I am not so sure about that.

I can point out some pretty gory aspects of irrational christianity (bible), and jew, (talmud) as well.

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Reagan also claimed to have brought the USSR down and Thatcher liked to claim her share of the of the glory too. What really brought the USSR down was that it was rotting from inside out from the day of its inception. East Europe was such a burden on the failing Soviet economy it was only a matter of when it would collapse. Pope John, Reagan and Thatcher just happened to be in place when it happened and there were people in place in the Kremlin that could see that Russia had to be reformed and couldn't go on like it had been. As PJ O'Rourke pointed out, 15 minutes spent in Moscow and one could see the Soviets couldn't organize a shopping trip never mind a war.

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

The Islamic agenda in Europe is to establish a Caliphate.

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

We have a Muslim Council of Britain, which are consulted on policy

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

There are also Shariah courts in every major city in the UK. They have no legal status and they do not respect UK law - whilst they are working underground at present, they are still not being shut down.

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

Add that to the fact that you cant say boo to a muslim in the UK

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

the fact that mosques are getting planning permission left right and centre

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

And everyone should consider the coming religion initiated dark ages.

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

The thing is, if I set up a place for children to come 5 times a day (and thats moderate islam) to be hypnotised and brain washed I think I would (rightly) be thrown in prison.

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ORIGINAL: FetishKytten

Islam requires women to wear the "hijaab"

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ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Good points. These cyberdude threads are always Republican party masturbation material. Distorted facts, blaming opponents, and ignoring more relevant political and social agenda items: US adoption of torture as policy; exploding national debt; running an unfunded and failing war; the promotion of an ideological agenda over science, etc.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: FetishKytten
Islam requires women to wear the "hijaab"

No it doesn't. Come to England and you will see loads of Muslim women not wearing the hijaab......

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

The Islamic agenda in Europe is to establish a Caliphate.

Feel free to put some meat on the bones of this one; how exactly have you arrived at this conclusion?

Visit the website, the names a giveaway, its called Caliphate.eu (www.caliphate.co.uk) Its a muslim website and it has lots of details about how a caliphate would run. Is this just a hobby? Of course not. Europe is liberal and tolerant and doesnt know where to draw the line.
 
Islam is preoccupied with conversion of infidels. (Thats means anyone non islamic). Would you deny this?
 
Also check out this article http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1796
Its a short article, out of it I would ask one question. Why would anyone want to maintain high birth rates in the modern age in Europe?

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

We have a Muslim Council of Britain, which are consulted on policy 

What policy?

One example is Sharia Banking, thats a national government initiative. On a micro scale there was the scrapping by Bolton Council of Holocaust Memorial Day in response to Muslim Council of Britain objections, that was Jan 2007. I am sure you can check the press yourself for other examples of political influence by this organisation.

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

There are also Shariah courts in every major city in the UK. They have no legal status and they do not respect UK law - whilst they are working underground at present, they are still not being shut down.

Some more details on these courts will be useful; what jurisdiction do they have, and where are they? Specific towns and cities will be useful.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/29/nsharia29.xml

Note the comment by an Islamic academic that he expects there to be a network of Sharia courts throughout the land. This is the intellectual muslim class talking about putting sharia law in place in the uk, albeit in parallel UK law at first.

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

Add that to the fact that you cant say boo to a muslim in the UK

Really? What exactly do you mean "boo to a Muslim"? What is it that you'd like to say, but you feel you can't?

Well for one, living next door to a mosque I would like them not to park in my car park which seriously interferes with my business. There is very little parking round here. When asked not to park in my private car park on the grounds of my business (I am not talking outside on the street here) I would like to not be met with some post hypnotic dazed muslim telling me he had to because he needed to go to mosque. I would like not to receive complaints from the mates of said man when I tell him he has no right to park there. I would like to say "fuck you, fuck your mates and fuck your mates mates". However, that would place me in a pretty vulnerable position legally.
 
I would also like them to not mill about on the road after church with no regard to the rest of reality, and I would like the mosque not to broadcast prayers at 9pm. That doesnt happen every night, but it shouldnt happen at all. Its the lack of regard for the rest of the society they live in that I would like to be able to point out without being labelled a racist. Its not even a racial issue.
 
So, quite a lot. However, there are legions of muslims coming out of the mosque and you criticise one, its not like an internet message board, all civilised. I come from a middle class tolerant background, some of my best friends have been/are african, asian...even welsh. But I deal with a lot of people everyday from all backgrounds and in the last 5 years I am telling you attitudes have turned right around. In private the British non muslim community has had enough of pandering to muslim sensitivities.
 
If I meet an individual muslim I am as polite as I would be to anyone else. I judge individuals on their merits. Or not. I am talking about the collective ethos that I have observed.

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

the fact that mosques are getting planning permission left right and centre

Can you qualify left, right and centre, and explain why British citizens shouldn't be allowed planning permission to express their ideas and individuality?

http://www.salaam.co.uk/mosques/index.php

Above is a link to a page with lots of mosques. A lot more than 10 years ago. British citizens shouldnt be allowed planning permission to express their ideas and individuality if it involves curtailing other peoples ideas and individuality. Islam is not tolerant, Britain is. You think Islam is tolerant? Check out any Islamic country and explain to me how that is tolerant?

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

And everyone should consider the coming religion initiated dark ages.

Should they? Why don't you do your own thing with your views, and leave others to their's.

Yes I believe people should wake up and take a look around their country and observe the changes occurring, without some woolly liberal view that "its all ok", because sometimes its healthy to say "Stop - this isnt OK". I am not stopping other poeple having a view, last time I looked. If you think I am then say so. Should I somehow keep a silence for your comfort? Its not pretty stuff to say, but sometimes in life one has to deal with ugly dirty things.

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ORIGINAL: GoldStallion

The thing is, if I set up a place for children to come 5 times a day (and thats moderate islam) to be hypnotised and brain washed I think I would (rightly) be thrown in prison.

Would you? I don't think so. Can you give some examples from past or present? 'Any precedent, here? England forged ahead on the back of religious tolerance, the only dark ages point of view here...is your view.

Then we differ on outlook - its only a view, and no I have no examples, or precedent. I agree religious tolerance is important, but religions are not tolerant and Islam is particularly intolerant when it gets a hold in a country, there are lots of examples of that across the Islamic world. Religious tolerance doesnt arrive by standing around letting extreme views promulgate unchallenged, just because they are becoming something we are getting used to.

I can't be bothered reading the rest.

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ORIGINAL: Zensee

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I think all religions should be outlawed.

Outlawed is a bit much. But they could certainly do with less kissing up to.

A good start would be to remove the Vatican from the General Assembly of the UN. It does not even begin to pass muster as a "nation". It's not a nation, just denomination, last time I checked.


Z.

PS: It's fundamentalists in all religions that make trouble, not the flavour of the fairy tales they tell.

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GoldStallion
But I deal with a lot of people everyday from all backgrounds and in the last 5 years I am telling you attitudes have turned right around. In private the British non muslim community has had enough of pandering to muslim sensitivities.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

The Vatican on the other hand wields enormous influence, not just spiritually but economically and politically. I don’t know that "most" Catholics ignore Papal edicts but even if that were the case there are still millions of people around the world who will cry out "how high?" if the Pope says "jump." Stalin once contemptuously dismissed the Vatican by asking, how many battalions the Pope had. He may have not been so contemptuous if had lived to see how Pope John Paul II used his power to help free Poland, the rest of Eastern Europe, and to bring down the Soviet Union. That kind of power alone warrants a seat at the table. Like the great man said, "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." Not that I regard the Vatican as an enemy but it is foolish to ignore power.

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The Vatican certainly HAD a lot of power in WW2, (which it failed to use appropriately, but that's another issue...) but that does not argue for it retaining any special power asat the UN. Why that religion? Why any religion?

The fact that the Vatican has a place at the table supports the delusions of other fundamentalists that they too speak with real authority, on behalf of god. The Vatican is a legal fiction. As long as the UN continues to recognise and granted real political power to only one religion, it's objectivity is questionable. Since including more religions, schisms, sects, denominations and what have you to the UN mx is impossible (Scientology anyone?), the fairest thing to do is to eject the only one presently enjoying that privilege.

Ditto the observations that the Vatican did nothing substantive in the Soviet Union to bring about its demise. It doesn't matter how much power the Vatican actually has or how it uses it. It's a religious sect, not a nation state and has no place in formal international politics.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So how do you explain ww1 and ww2 ?  Islam has always been different to the west and a lot of the times more tolerent.

Well... In WWI, I think the Ottoman Turks aligned themselves with the Central Powers to run the Brits, French and Russians out of the Middle East,  destroy Christian Armenia and The Christian Kurds and sure up their hold on South East Europe thus rebuilding their crumbling Islamic Empire

And...

Then in WWII I think Iraq joined forces with the Nazis and Italians to again kick out the French and English and destroy the Zionist movements with the hopes of and Arab Islamic Empire instead of a Turkish one.

This is such a disingenous analysis if one can even call it an analysis rather than pure prejudice. The alignment of the Ottoman empire in WWI and the allying of some Arabs (by no means all) to the NAZIs was more to do with self preservation than any idea of Islam. The European powers along with the US had and have the biggest empires, no one calls them Christian empires, which they were and are.