quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

God, I love a thread like this....Terminology out here is bandied about as if it has some sort of worth.....The word "Slave" doesn't mean shit in the world of bdsm....But people will cling to it like their lives depend on it.....But then they have to add on all of the modifying statements to justify the use of the word to pertain to themselves and pretty soon the word has lost all of it's meaning......It's similar to starting out in using the word "train" in trying to describe your car.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
By calling myself a slave, I am not belitting anyone.  By calling myself a slave, I am not upholding any such treatment of anyone. 

quote:

Why couldn't we go so far as to say that allowing ourselves to be beaten, whipped, hurt, etc. is belitting to all battered women.  It's terrible what they go through NONCONSENSUALLYso we shouldn't go throught it CONSENSUALLY because it's making a mockery of what they endure.

quote:

That is exactly the same as what you are saying.  You are saying that because some people are made into slaves without their consent, that calling oneself a "slave" consensually belittles them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

And some of the people on the Gorean board think that all women are wired to be slaves.  While I will not shit in the Gorean sandbox when I wasn't invited there, I will say that I find the idea laughable and a weird way to rationalize one's own kink.

MSS

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


Looking at a few slavery-related threads, I came across some interesting observations: Slavery might not seem so bad if we did it Roman style rather than American style. Nature approves of slavery. It's a shame we can't have legal ownership of another person here in the U.S. We might be able to update the institution of slavery to make it work for modern times.

All this has left me wondering if we're at risk of romanticizing slavery. Do our easy use of the word slave, our iconization of slave collars, and our interest (from whatever angle) in dominance and submission blind us to the true horrors of slavery? Are we forgetting that consensual slavery is the exception rather than the rule? Does anyone else feel discomfort at sharing language and symbols with one of the great evils of human history?

I'm sure this has been pondered and discussed before, but I couldn't find a thread that raised quite these questions. So I'm interested to hear what folks think.

Thanks,

DC

<Edited to fix typos>

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
Isaid that it belittled the experience, I did not say that it belittled the person

quote:

Because we don't call ourselves "battered women". Calling ourselves "battered women" would make a mockery of what they go through

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

The slavery which existed in the US 200+ years ago is not what today's BDSM is about.

Slavery still exists in this country.

I'm concerned about the use of the word to denote what we do. Slavery is an ugly thing. I feel that what we do, isn't. To me it's same as saying it's okay to use the "N" word, as long as you mean it in the rap sense. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: leatherette
We should actually be ashamed of ourselves. How arrogant  - really - to call our partners or selves "slaves" when REAL slavery exists - by the millions ( yes..there are statistics) all over the world in 2007

quote:

Third world forced for survival labor, UM labor, UM slaves, real sex slaves who service dozens a day, barely fed, kept in a little room until they die - usually of a disease and malnutrition. This is just for starters...

We really are spoiled. We are lucky to be here. Relatively ( as any being on the planet could be) safe, leisure to use computers +

US pre civil war:  Slaves, captives, no choice to leave, many led short miserable lives. 
Slaves did most of  all the work. ( ownership held true responsibility, plus overseers etc worked hard)

Owners: bought slaves. Yes to OWN slaves =  $$$ was an absolute must.

( different from today's egalitarian teamwork partnerships of choice to say the least)
 

quote:

 A disservice to those in unchosen anguish perhaps

quote:

ORIGINAL: leatherette


"To all those the world over in "unchosen anguish," I apologize for diminishing, belittling, and not giving a fat rat's ass about you or your troubles"

labels, labels labels.
Look..you can call yourself whatever you like, not saying you or anyone here is not. Gee, I have the same "box" checked!

nice not to give a fat rat's ass about other's troubles
how altruistic. how service oriented

sounds..like "its all about meeee" 

and yeah... we should lighten up... as in " last post was a tad sarcastic and over the top to illustrate the same point" 
No need for shame..

quote:

ORIGINAL: leatherette
nice not to give a fat rat's ass about other's troubles
how altruistic. how service oriented
sounds..like "its all about meeee" 

quote:

and yeah... we should lighten up... as in " last post was a tad sarcastic and over the top to illustrate the same point" 
No need for shame..

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe
Reason I gave up on consensual slavery was this-I had to be the "master" all the time-or they tended to implode with insecurity. I'm too busy for that most of the time-sometimes I just need to be mr. regular-and not have my partner going into screaming hysteria and pouting over it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Friends ---

A few years ago, I was looking at a book on the Civil War. There was a photo of a slave collar and shackles, and I felt a brief surge of excitement. Then cold reality sank in: This was not BDSM gear I was seeing. These were artifacts of misery, tools of an institution that oppressed millions.

You're able to separate the horrific racist based slavery from modern BDSM and I think that's a good thing. Today's BDSM is about empowerment and growth, not oppression and there is a chasm so large which separate the two that they're not even on the same plain of existance.

quote:

That scene came to mind today as I followed the Gorean thread about nonconsensual slavery. Thirty-six precent of poll respondents said that they believed in nonconsensual slavery. That stunned me. It's possible, I realize, they had in mind some Gorean vision rather than real-life slavery as it's been practiced on Earth. But still.

But still what?? I'd love for you to finish the thought. The slavery which existed in the US 200+ years ago is not what today's BDSM is about. If the term 'slave' bothers you, don't use it but keep in mind slave is not the only term from that time frame. Property, chattel, beasts, animals and others were also used. Do those terms disturb you as well or is it just the word 'slave'? As far as the tools of the trade,  keep in mind, too, that it wasn't just collars and shackles which were used .. it was whips, floggers, hell, even sledge hammers to break ankles so people couldn't run. Trains were used to transport the Jewish, homosexuals and others to death camps. Does that mean you should never ride a train again? Or is it because we've taken some of the tools which were used to commit atrocities and have turned them into instruments of pleasure? We have done similar with the tools used by the Inquisition. We have taken tools and because of our motivational differences, we allow them to empower us rather than overpower us. 200+ years ago, a collar meant the loss of one's freedom. Today, for some of us, it's the collar which symbolizes our freedom... our freedom to be ourselves and revel in it.

quote:

All this has left me wondering if we're at risk of romanticizing slavery. Do our easy use of the word slave, our iconization of slave collars, and our interest (from whatever angle) in dominance and submission blind us to the true horrors of slavery?

I can only answer for myself and the answer is absolutely not.

quote:

Are we forgetting that consensual slavery is the exception rather than the rule?

That would have been true 200 years ago. Today I think it's rather the opposite. We can only be responsible for ourselves. We are not responsible for the sins of our fathers.

quote:

Does anyone else feel discomfort at sharing language and symbols with one of the great evils of human history?

Language is fluid and evolves and I think it would be a mistake to overlook the motivation for it's use.

quote:

I'm sure this has been pondered and discussed before, but I couldn't find a thread that raised quite these questions. So I'm interested to hear what folks think.

Thanks,

DC

I don't recall, in my time here, a similar thread with these points being brought out into the open. I think it's a good topic and one worthy of discussion.

Celeste