RE: Machismo and BDSM

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Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 4:58:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cyntilating quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin "He stands before the raging spectators, a God in their midst. Machismo and testosterone strewn about him like a train wreck. "He roars, like a beast, a lion challenging one and all to defy his will and step into the arena. "A man takes up the challenge. Smaller, lighter of frame and build. Quiet, alert ... focused. "One bellows as a bull from Hell. The other cocks an eyebrow." My apologies if my use of archetypes offends you. I am seriously curious when it comes to machismo, and why some women find it appealing while others find it repulsive. My parents taught me ethics that would preclude machismo, and I cannot say I miss what I've never had nor truly understood. But every BDSM forum I've visited includes ample displays of machismo as well as a bevy of women who find it appealing. And then there are the men and women who are not in any way impressed by it. Thus I am starting this thread for the purpose of discussing machismo as it relates to BDSM. Bob, you wrote: {It tells me "what", but not "why". } The peacock ( male) displays its plume..to show sexual readiness The Lion shakes its mane and bares its teeth...to show dominance. The male guppy is the one with the colors....to attract the female. The Buck with the largest rack... has won the most battles and shows prowess and skill. the females in the animal kingdom look for the above to find the strongest and healthiest to mate with, because something intrinsic tells her that strong bloodline means security/longevity for the pack/herd. machismo in a man is essentially a display of his prowess and sexuality and it speaks to that animalistic place in the hetero-female. ie "bring you and your strong sperm over here hot stuff! let's procreate!" am I getting close? ...............ok taking my nyquil bottle and going to bed now.. it was the nyquil talking, I swear. ::smiling:: You are probably getting close, Cyndi, but here's the thing. In each of the above examples, the animal displays its most prominent asset. But in humans, that asset has been, and continues to be, the brain. The peacock does not write sonnets, the lion composes no symphonies. Pierre Trudeau, perhaps our most popular and influential prime minister, was not someone with rippling biceps and six-pack abs, yet he was vastly popular with the women voters of his day because of his intellect. (hmm, now I'm wondering at the role culture plays in this) If, in the illustration that opened the OP, the man with the cocked eyebrow pulled out a gun and blew away the competition, what lesson could we conclude from the competition between brawn and brains? How would primitive humans have brought down a mammoth if someone hadn't had the brains to figure out how to chip stone to make spears, or organize a hunt? I'm not dissing body-builders or their admirers, but I see this as conditioning, not instinct. As for procreation, the guy might be built like a god, but if he's dumb as a post ... hmm ... come to think of it, you're probably right. As a society we don't place much value on brains. Funding for music classes in school gets chopped while money for football is untouchable. [:(]

Aileen68 -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 5:00:53 AM)
You are assuming that men who display their machismo are unintelligent and violent. I've found this to not be the case.

littlebitxxx -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 5:09:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub To the OP..well I put my 2 cents worth in on the why of it..speculative on my part though it may be...~grabbing flame suit, just in case..~As generations have passed, and societel conformity changes,women on the whole have come out stronger,more educated,et al whilst men have gotten in touch with their feminine sides, to the point of covering up their "true" (yes I said THAT word!) nature..For some women the loss of that inherant masculinity that once abounded has been profound.I feel that the male gender has abdicated a lot of their leadership roles within a relationship,they no longer accept much responsibility for even their own actions.Some women miss that take charge attitude,that quiet confidence,the maturity level of a man and not a post pubescent adolescent...So these are my thoughts on the "why" of it all...Tempting I'm inclined to agree with TN. Also with her later post about the way the Women's Lib movement seems to have exacerbated the situation. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all they've done for women's rights: equal pay for equal work, having a voice in the community, being seen as more than just a brainless Stepford Wife type thing (read doormat). But not ALL women feel as strongly. Over the last 30-40 years with the advent of the women's movement, we 've seen a lot of stereotypical gender roles reversed with the number of women in "men's" jobs, and the number of single male parents as minor examples. While a lot of women are cheering this advent, a lot are grieving for the downfall of the male dominated society or household. Submissives (interchangeable with slaves) for example desire the return to the time when men were men and women were women and sheep were nervous. A look at the popularity of historical romance fiction books shows women have fantasies of strong, macho type men acting like pirates or whatever. They thrill at the thought of being 'overcome', they get wet reading about being 'taken' and 'compelled to submit'. In this new society of gender reversed roles and men finding their feminine side, men themselves would find it difficult to be seen as masculine and dominating. Hence, the machismo, the act. They can stand up and pound their chest, grab their woman by the hair and drag her off into a dark cave...and some women, wishing for the 'good old days' would go for that. The bluff and bluster is attractive from that point of view. Personally, I like the strut and posture of machismo...to watch. Yes, the idea of being taken and forced to submit is arousing. Much more so than the idea of a flaky, feminine-aware dude in a suit on bended knee with stars in his eyes. But for the long term (and this parallels another thread about the type of man we seek in long term), I would have to say I'd look for masculinity not machismo, striding with purpose not strutting, strong not overpowering, Dominating not domineering. And yes, in touch with his feminine side but knows when to put it away ;) Don't know if it answers the 'why' for you, Bob, but figured I'd throw a nickel's worth into the pot.

camille65 -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 5:11:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 Bob why do you say that ethics preclude machismo? I don't understand what you mean. Machismo, as it existed in the world I grew up in, was about men being superior to women. It was about the presumption that it was the male perogative to take what he wanted from women. It was also considered vulgar and rude. It might help to put it into context to know these discussions were being held in the first half of the 1970s, a time when liberalism and egalitarianism were immensely popular, at least in middle-class suburban Toronto. Interesting. We definitely come from different socio-economic backgrounds lol. I don't know if that makes the difference in how I view the word or not.~1 : a strong sense of masculine pride That is how I take the word. Sometimes the pride is earned and other times I see it as over compensation, or as a cultural trait.Very rarely do I see it as a negative unless it is obviously unearned. Now machismo and BDSM? In that context I see it as a confident male. For me a confident male is a yummy thing indeed.

kirii -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 5:13:13 AM)
Despite the arguments to the contrary, men are taught early on that they ‘should’ be on the front lines; protecting the ‘little woman and family’ ; that courage and strength are things to be embraced and exploited; that confidence in one’s self is an asset and not a hindrance. I don’t believe that most women are attracted to the kind of man you have portrayed here; one who bellows and thumps his chest, demanding that all who come into contact with him concede to his superiority. I believe that women are attracted to those men who quietly exude confidence, courage, assertiveness, and strength. Strength has nothing to do with how many muscles a person has. Strength comes from within; having the courage to face anything head on with a confidence that is indisputable. Courage gives a man strength and the ability to assert himself in times of need. This to me, is machismo. A quietness of character that a man exudes in abundance. He does not need to call attention to himself; he simply IS.

TNstepsout -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 5:13:34 AM)
As to why? It's just basic primal instinct. Survival of the fittest, natural selection and all that non-sexy stuff etc.... At an instinctual level women are still attracted to the male that will make the strongest, healthiest babies and be able to protect them. We don't really need the same things that we once did to create a child that will succeed in this world, but at one time, that power and strength meant survival so it's wired into our DNA. Just like men are attracted to women with young "fertile" bodies. A lot of things about D/s pluck those primal strings. That's why I like it. So much of our modern lives take us away from what we really are at our core, animals.

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 5:36:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub Absolutely I took into consideration womens liberation, and the single (usually mothers) parent households, which is why I came to the conclusions I did about the abdication of men and their responsibilities.I am trying not to point a big finger of blame,,just that the many societel changes have created this phenomenon.And its increase exponentially (sp). Without that strong male influence in a lot of households,that male machismo if you will, will soon disappear altogether, as more and more male children will have less and less direct influence from that male role model...Tempting I can't argue with you on these points (tho' the word "abdication" still sticks, I'll get to that). The lack of a positive male imfluence in so many families is indeed a loss for children. I also note that educational facilities, especially in the younger grades, find it almost impossible to recruit men. In Canada, 96% of single-parent families are run by mothers. This is not the result of fathers abdicating responsibility, but of the courts decreeing that custody will go to the mother. 100 years ago, the decrees went the other way, with the father getting the kids. While I can see "abdication" being applied to the predominantly-male governments that have passed laws and instituted regulations that have reversed the trend, I do not see this as men in general abdicating their responsibilities. Governments, seeking re-election, have been courting the women's vote almost since women got the vote. Passing laws and legislation to 'make women and children' safer are popular with women voters, even when it takes away from the influence men have in society (or because of it). In a sense, it is a power stuggle between the genders where stereotypes dominate the discussions. And women who want men to have less/little/no influence in families and society seem to be winning. Until enough women decide they have emasculated men too much, and seek to reverse this trend through legislative changes, I do not see how men can be faulted for accepting the way things are. They're being taught to accept this from birth, through single-parent mother-run families and women-run day care followed by female teachers in school, all monitored by a female-dominated Children's Aid Society that has enormous power to enforce their will over any family with children. Our society is doing quite well at pushing men out of the lives of children. How do you see men reversing this situation so as not to be seen as "abdicating" their responsibilities?

littlebitxxx -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 5:39:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Well, you can't really do that either.....cause those that actually have it....ooze it. oh I like that.... next time a girl calls me "Slimy"... I will respond with... "NO baby... I am just ooooooooozzzzzzzzingggggg it" Knight, you crack me up! rofl Picturing here ooooozzzzzzzinnngggggg, in leather, with those eyes! Yup, you got it. Sheesh, now I need a towel.

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 5:45:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SunnyTawse Possibly they produce more/better/different pheromones...? Sunny Perhaps, Sunny. I've often wondered that, as my sweat doesn't stink (I've never used deodorant and my lovers have all commented on this). But so much of what is "machismo" seems to be the result of conditioning, not instinct. Were this a result of genetics (thus the particular pheromones being released) I would think conditioning would be less a factor in producing machismo. Would make for an interesting study, tho' [;)]

breatheasone -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 5:50:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xolarkinxo *Machismo is by definition an exaggerated sense of masculinity. I'd take that over a man displaying effeminate behavior any day.* Amen and amen..... As a side note....(my opinion ONLY) Its ashame that our society has created a bunch of eunuches. Its no longer acceptable for the sexes to act like who and what they are...

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:10:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: came4U I know manly-men who don't behave this way, is it because they don't have to?? They must see a weakness in another as a reason to avoid confrontation? They don't see the need to convey a macho-strength? This sounds like Mohandas Gandhi whose philosophy of non-violence liberated India/Pakistan. Throughout history there have been two models for men: Protector (warrior-caste, machismo, violent) and Nurturer (priest-caste, egalitarian, non-violent). The ideal, for me, is a balance between the two. Though I was raised a Nurturer, and it still dominates who I am, I've also deliberately studied the Protector model. I believe my father was seeking to create this balance in the things he taught me while he lived. That was something my mother either couldn't or didn't continue teaching after he died.

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:13:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressDolly quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin I take it you are talking about what I described, and not my writing talent? [;)] Your writing isn't so bad. :) (A humble bow to a generous audience) [:)]

AquaticSub -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:16:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin I am seriously curious when it comes to machismo, and why some women find it appealing while others find it repulsive. My parents taught me ethics that would preclude machismo, and I cannot say I miss what I've never had nor truly understood. Because not all women are the same and your parents didn't know everything.

breatheasone -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:23:40 AM)
quote: Because not all women are the same and your parents didn't know everything. OUCH.....

Aileen68 -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:25:45 AM)
This thread has the potential for actually being a discussion. I just hope that bob doesn't turn it into a "my way is a better way" kind of thing instead of accepting that everyone has different preferences and views.

AquaticSub -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:28:05 AM)
Nobody's do.

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:32:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen68 You are assuming that men who display their machismo are unintelligent and violent. I've found this to not be the case. Ah, but you are a lady and I am a man. As part of my studies on machismo I used to watch pro wrestling. Yes it is an act, but a very popular act as one can see if one watches the audience. Pro wrestling is all about machismo. The stereotyped displays are, to me, "unintelligent and violent". If that example seems weak, consider the displays of machismo in sports, politics, entertainment. They all appeal to the less intelligent and those eager for violence, or so it seems to me. Sad to say, but in my opinion the war in Iraq is all about machismo: Bush II had to prove he's a better man than Bush I. Your Politics May Vary

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:37:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlebitxxx (snipped for brevity) Don't know if it answers the 'why' for you, Bob, but figured I'd throw a nickel's worth into the pot. Count your change, LB, that was worth a lot more than a nickel [:)]

AquaticSub -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:38:27 AM)
So... what is it when women wrestle or spar?

camille65 -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:40:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen68 You are assuming that men who display their machismo are unintelligent and violent. I've found this to not be the case. Ah, but you are a lady and I am a man. As part of my studies on machismo I used to watch pro wrestling. Yes it is an act, but a very popular act as one can see if one watches the audience. Pro wrestling is all about machismo. The stereotyped displays are, to me, "unintelligent and violent". If that example seems weak, consider the displays of machismo in sports, politics, entertainment. They all appeal to the less intelligent and those eager for violence, or so it seems to me. Sad to say, but in my opinion the war in Iraq is all about machismo: Bush II had to prove he's a better man than Bush I. Your Politics May Vary Lol Bob, WWE is exaggerated machismo to the extreme. It is a caricature of that trait and I'm surprised to see you take it as a serious example.

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