RE: Machismo and BDSM

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LaTigresse -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:41:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: breatheasone quote: ORIGINAL: xolarkinxo *Machismo is by definition an exaggerated sense of masculinity. I'd take that over a man displaying effeminate behavior any day.* Amen and amen..... As a side note....(my opinion ONLY) Its ashame that our society has created a bunch of eunuches. Its no longer acceptable for the sexes to act like who and what they are... Some will say it is society and others have said it is a proven evolution. That, even physically, we are slowly moving towards androgyny. They used our changes in body type as an indicator. It's a theory that makes sense as the old stereotypes make less and less sense. Personally, I don't find the more androgynous look appealing in either men or women. It appears I am not alone in that regard. So, it's interesting that while we are, in a greater percentage, drawn more to the more feminine women and more masculine men we do, as a species, continue to evolve into creatures that are less so.

IrishMist -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:42:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen68 This thread has the potential for actually being a discussion. I just hope that bob doesn't turn it into a "my way is a better way" kind of thing instead of accepting that everyone has different preferences and views. You are living in a dream world if you seriously think that it will not happen. Good ole Bobby is a force onto himself; he can not see others because he and his own opinion are way too important; the rest of us are here so that he can prove that [:D] I do agree though, you take away everything that he has said, and it is a good discussion.

Aileen68 -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:44:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen68 You are assuming that men who display their machismo are unintelligent and violent. I've found this to not be the case. Ah, but you are a lady and I am a man. As part of my studies on machismo I used to watch pro wrestling. Yes it is an act, but a very popular act as one can see if one watches the audience. Pro wrestling is all about machismo. The stereotyped displays are, to me, "unintelligent and violent". If that example seems weak, consider the displays of machismo in sports, politics, entertainment. They all appeal to the less intelligent and those eager for violence, or so it seems to me. Sad to say, but in my opinion the war in Iraq is all about machismo: Bush II had to prove he's a better man than Bush I. Your Politics May Vary All of the examples you gave are to some extent actors...I'm talking more in terms of the everyday guy who has these traits not someone whos paycheck revolves around how manly or charismatic they are.

leakylee -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:46:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: breatheasone quote: ORIGINAL: xolarkinxo *Machismo is by definition an exaggerated sense of masculinity. I'd take that over a man displaying effeminate behavior any day.* Amen and amen..... As a side note....(my opinion ONLY) Its ashame that our society has created a bunch of eunuches. Its no longer acceptable for the sexes to act like who and what they are... i really really have to agree with the enunch thing. basically what i think it boils down to more than anthing. there are times, and those that prefer men that are actually less feminine than themselves. many of us marry later. we no longer jump from our Daddy's to our Hubbys. we learn to take care of ourselves. someone that matches that capibility or surpasses it can be a much more appealing choice. lee

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:52:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 Bob why do you say that ethics preclude machismo? I don't understand what you mean. Machismo, as it existed in the world I grew up in, was about men being superior to women. It was about the presumption that it was the male perogative to take what he wanted from women. It was also considered vulgar and rude. It might help to put it into context to know these discussions were being held in the first half of the 1970s, a time when liberalism and egalitarianism were immensely popular, at least in middle-class suburban Toronto. Interesting. We definitely come from different socio-economic backgrounds lol. I don't know if that makes the difference in how I view the word or not.~1 : a strong sense of masculine pride That is how I take the word. Sometimes the pride is earned and other times I see it as over compensation, or as a cultural trait.Very rarely do I see it as a negative unless it is obviously unearned. Now machismo and BDSM? In that context I see it as a confident male. For me a confident male is a yummy thing indeed. I hope you have a chance to check out the various definitions some have provided to see how "machismo" is understood by others. One thing I'd like to ask: How do you define "masculine pride" as opposed to "pride" or "feminine pride"? I feel pride in accomplishing something that was a challenge to my skills and abilities. But there is no challenge to my being a man: I was born male and becoming a man is unavoidable. The kind of man I become is another matter. But there is no quality, talent or skill I can accomplish that cannot be equally accomplished by a woman. Thus I see no basis for masculine pride: only a basis for pride in what I accomplish. Machismo is the emphasis on masculinity. But what can men do that women cannot do? Men can produce sperm while women cannot. However, women can produce babies and breast milk where men cannot. Given a comparison of oozing sperm out of my body versus giving birth to an eight pound baby -and- producing enough food to keep the baby alive for months ... ... I'd have to say pride in something purely masculine is a bit over-rated when compared to the pride that can be felt for something which is purely feminine [;)] Perhaps that is why machismo is so exaggerated.

camille65 -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:54:32 AM)
I think that Bob has a skewed view on a lot of things. I don't know if it is due to his upbringing or just how he sees the world. This thread really did have a great beginning, especially when looking at how society has wanted to turn men into having to be touchy-feely. There is a time and place for touchy-feely (especially when I'm in restraints.. touchy and feely away), but it seems like our PC world demands it all of the time.That is why I think there is a need for the over the top machismo of WWE, why video games have murderous characters etc.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:58:05 AM)
Since wrestling was dragged into this, it reminds me of something that happened to me. I had gone out dancing with a male co-worker. While we were out on the dance floor, a team of pro wrestlers came into the club. One of them made it out onto the dance floor and tapped my co-worker/dance partner on the shoulder and asked, "Is she with you?" My 'friend' threw up his hands and promptly said, "not anymore" and actually left me there staring up at this huge caricature of manliness who had a rather amused expression on his face. Now, on topic. It is not the presence of machismo per se, that I find attractive or repulsive. It is how that confidence (exaggerated or otherwise) is expressed. Some men, even though they don't perceive themselves as macho, can convey exactly that persona by simply digging in their heels and refusing to be moved - no matter what. I have a question for you Bob. In your example, is the man who is bellowing and thumping his chest exhibiting Machismo, while the man who accepts the challenge with the quirk of an eyebrow not? Or do you see both men, in the arena, as examples of Machismo?

AquaticSub -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 6:59:12 AM)
People, men and women, love blood and violence. It's always been that way. I tend to believe it's better now because we prefer our violence to be fake instead of pitting actual people against each other to the death for amusement. Hangings and witch burnings have also always drawn a crowd. People would turn out in droves to watch others die.

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 7:09:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TNstepsout As to why? It's just basic primal instinct. Survival of the fittest, natural selection and all that non-sexy stuff etc.... At an instinctual level women are still attracted to the male that will make the strongest, healthiest babies and be able to protect them. We don't really need the same things that we once did to create a child that will succeed in this world, but at one time, that power and strength meant survival so it's wired into our DNA. Just like men are attracted to women with young "fertile" bodies. A lot of things about D/s pluck those primal strings. That's why I like it. So much of our modern lives take us away from what we really are at our core, animals. I think there is much to what you say here, TN. Perhaps some women make such choices with their gut feeling, while others make choices based on a less-instinctive process. But I wouldn't rule out conditioning which must contribute to perpetuating this kind of choice. Regarding the sentence I highlighted: Anyone interested in seeing what desirable women looked like to our primitive ancestors is invited to view the picture here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurines The above is a figurine carved some 25,000 years ago, and it is one of many similar figurines that have been found in Europe.

camille65 -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 7:09:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 Bob why do you say that ethics preclude machismo? I don't understand what you mean. Machismo, as it existed in the world I grew up in, was about men being superior to women. It was about the presumption that it was the male perogative to take what he wanted from women. It was also considered vulgar and rude. It might help to put it into context to know these discussions were being held in the first half of the 1970s, a time when liberalism and egalitarianism were immensely popular, at least in middle-class suburban Toronto. Interesting. We definitely come from different socio-economic backgrounds lol. I don't know if that makes the difference in how I view the word or not.~1 : a strong sense of masculine pride That is how I take the word. Sometimes the pride is earned and other times I see it as over compensation, or as a cultural trait.Very rarely do I see it as a negative unless it is obviously unearned. Now machismo and BDSM? In that context I see it as a confident male. For me a confident male is a yummy thing indeed. I hope you have a chance to check out the various definitions some have provided to see how "machismo" is understood by others. One thing I'd like to ask: How do you define "masculine pride" as opposed to "pride" or "feminine pride"? I feel pride in accomplishing something that was a challenge to my skills and abilities. But there is no challenge to my being a man: I was born male and becoming a man is unavoidable. The kind of man I become is another matter. But there is no quality, talent or skill I can accomplish that cannot be equally accomplished by a woman. Thus I see no basis for masculine pride: only a basis for pride in what I accomplish. Machismo is the emphasis on masculinity. But what can men do that women cannot do? Men can produce sperm while women cannot. However, women can produce babies and breast milk where men cannot. Given a comparison of oozing sperm out of my body versus giving birth to an eight pound baby -and- producing enough food to keep the baby alive for months ... ... I'd have to say pride in something purely masculine is a bit over-rated when compared to the pride that can be felt for something which is purely feminine [;)] Perhaps that is why machismo is so exaggerated. Oy. I don't see machismo as a reaction to what a man can do. It is how a man feels and shows himself to the world, not about lifting something heavier than me.Most here have tried to explain how they see it, similiar to me. Just read their answers again and maybe you will get it.

Aileen68 -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 7:13:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Anyone interested in seeing what desirable women looked like to our primitive ancestors is invited to view the picture here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurines The above is a figurine carved some 25,000 years ago, and it is one of many similar figurines that have been found in Europe. It's a little odd to try and compare ideals from 25,000 years ago to today. That ideal only meant that the tribe of people were successful enough to provide food. Food and shelter = life.

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 7:13:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: breatheasone quote: Because not all women are the same and your parents didn't know everything. OUCH..... ::smile:: But its true nonetheless. Aqua has only stated that which is obvious to everyone.

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 7:23:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub So... what is it when women wrestle or spar? I admit I'm no expert on the appeal of the sport, whether men or women are involved. When I watched, women wrestlers were a novelty. Perhaps that has changed. If I had to guess, I'd say either their fans are amongst some of the sub men seeking dommes, or perhaps machismo men who dream of conqueroring a warrior-maiden (a Red Sonja). This is not to rule out the possibility their appeal may be more amongst women than men.

RapierFugue -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 7:24:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen68 You are assuming that men who display their machismo are unintelligent and violent. I've found this to not be the case. Ah, but you are a lady and I am a man. As part of my studies on machismo I used to watch pro wrestling. Yes it is an act, but a very popular act as one can see if one watches the audience. Pro wrestling is all about machismo. The stereotyped displays are, to me, "unintelligent and violent". If that example seems weak, consider the displays of machismo in sports, politics, entertainment. They all appeal to the less intelligent and those eager for violence, or so it seems to me. Sad to say, but in my opinion the war in Iraq is all about machismo: Bush II had to prove he's a better man than Bush I. Your Politics May Vary That's a staggeringly over-simplified series of statements. Those concerning the Gulf conflict/Iraq are also clearly incorrect, as the situation is vastly more complex than the one you paint, and the pro-wrestling references are highly questionable in this context; a single, heavily-caricatured and over-inflated sub-class does not prove a global theory. As to the original point, I think it depends entirely how you frame a definition of “machismo”; for some it’s merely a pride in “maleness”, without much of the more dubious elements you’re trying to tack onto it. For others, it’s become (through misuse of the word and context) the worst excesses of the destructive male forces. Personally, I’ve found that those who adopt a posture of machismo tend to be fools or charlatans, whereas those who merely take a simple pride in their own abilities, and often those of others, are positive forces in life. As to the “why” you keep asking, I would suggest that, historically, women have been attracted to strong, male providers, from cave times onwards. The fact that these desires are somewhat frowned upon by society these days as a sign of an under-evolved mind, as if they were something bad, only increases their appeal to some women. It’s Newtonian; you push society in one direction here, an equal and opposite reaction takes place there. Some women are into strong-minded, direct, “male” men. Some aren’t. T’was ever thus, and forever will be. And a jolly good thing too, say I. “Machismo; helping dominant blokes get laid since 15,000 BC.”

breatheasone -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 7:24:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: breatheasone quote: Because not all women are the same and your parents didn't know everything. OUCH..... ::smile:: But its true nonetheless. Aqua has only stated that which is obvious to everyone. I get that, but still.....and FYI....(this is so sad too btw) I had to explain to my Mother when i was 15 or, so exactly what the purpose of a womans menstrual cycle was for. She had NO CLUE it was to rid the body of the unfertilized egg!...I was like "Holy shit mom are you serious??" So I get that parents aren't ALL knowing...i would hope we all just do the best we can when we raise our kids....Now back to our regularly scheduled programing

AquaticSub -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 7:26:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin When I watched, women wrestlers were a novelty. Perhaps that has changed. If I had to guess, I'd say either their fans are amongst some of the sub men seeking dommes, or perhaps machismo men who dream of conqueroring a warrior-maiden (a Red Sonja). Being a woman in martial arts (BTW, the movie Red Sonja is quite dear to my heart, it is one of the things that, as a little girl, gave me the courage to follow my interest in martial arts), who is also quite submissive, I'd say you might want to take another look at it. It is not only submissive men who find physically capable women appealing. One of the main reasons Valyraen is attracted to me because I am far from helpless. Perhaps that makes him machismo - which is fine with me. He's a strong, loving man who will make an excellent father and provider and he likes to throw me down on the bed. I'm perfectly happy with whatever his machismo rating is. Athough, I do dare you to tell a female wrestler or any of the second or third degree female black belts at my dojo that they are a novelty.

Aileen68 -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 7:27:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RapierFugue “Machismo; helping dominant blokes get laid since 15,000 BC.” Hahahaha. Understatement.

LaTigresse -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 7:27:57 AM)
Oh come now, nothing turns most guys on more than a "CAT FIGHT!!!" A couple weeks ago I visited some aquaintances that were camping not far from where I live. There was a playful mudwrestling between 3-5 women of various ages. All the guys standing around in a circle avidly watching, just hoping and praying to see a mud covered breast being groped by another woman.

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 7:29:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 Lol Bob, WWE is exaggerated machismo to the extreme. It is a caricature of that trait and I'm surprised to see you take it as a serious example. Caricature is a useful illustrative tool, Camille. It emphasizes qualities so they cannot be overlooked. I used it for that reason in the OP. As I indicated, pro wrestling is one of many examples I've studied.

camille65 -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 7:29:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RapierFugue That's a staggeringly over-simplified series of statements. Those concerning the Gulf conflict/Iraq are also clearly incorrect, as the situation is vastly more complex than the one you paint, and the pro-wrestling references are highly questionable in this context; a single, heavily-caricatured and over-inflated sub-class does not prove a global theory. As to the original point, I think it depends entirely how you frame a definition of “machismo”; for some it’s merely a pride in “maleness”, without much of the more dubious elements you’re trying to tack onto it. For others, it’s become (through misuse of the word and context) the worst excesses of the destructive male forces. Personally, I’ve found that those who adopt a posture of machismo tend to be fools or charlatans, whereas those who merely take a simple pride in their own abilities, and often those of others, are positive forces in life. As to the “why” you keep asking, I would suggest that, historically, women have been attracted to strong, male providers, from cave times onwards. The fact that these desires are somewhat frowned upon by society these days as a sign of an under-evolved mind, as if they were something bad, only increases their appeal to some women. It’s Newtonian; you push society in one direction here, an equal and opposite reaction takes place there. Some women are into strong-minded, direct, “male” men. Some aren’t. T’was ever thus, and forever will be. And a jolly good thing too, say I. “Machismo; helping dominant blokes get laid since 15,000 BC.” Uhhuh to what I bolded. Bob I think that you are taking one and only one view as to what machismo means, and you have received a whole lotta answers as to why women tend to like a man who has machismo because they areconfident within themselves, andconfident in their place in society.

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