RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs."

RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (Full Version)

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defiantbadgirl -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/13/2007 9:26:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl NAFTA has hurt the US economy. The combination of NAFTA and immigration is destroying it. The US needs to halt immigration until the big corporations are forced to bring all the good paying jobs back. Hi defiantbadgirl... I think you are on the right track Thank you. Illegal immigration could be stopped tomorrow if a federal law stated to the effect… Any employer who is found guilty of hiring illegal aliens will receive an automatic 20 years without parole. Excellent idea. Only those who come into the county on work permits will be employed making it easier to track their movements. Then if they want to apply for citizenship I welcome them. Now this I disagree with, simply because of the way the the economy is right now. The US can't afford to have any more foreigners come here, even on work permits when good paying jobs are so hard to find. Industrious people…leaving their homes to travel thousands of miles to start a new life are what made the United States the great country it is. I agree, but back then the economy wasn't like what it is now. I think further immigration, even legal immigration should be halted until this whole NAFTA issue is taken care of. Once the US has all those good paying jobs back, legal immigration should be reinstated. I have nothing against immigration as long as it isn't hurting US workers. Butch

kdsub -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/13/2007 9:47:37 PM)
Hi again defiantbadgirl I think there are some jobs that need temporary migrate workers. There are not enough people say in Imperial Valley to pick cauliflower or strawberries… or cotton in S. Caroline or peanuts in Georgia. Those jobs are only needed for a short time so employers could not carry them all year. The crops would rot in the field without them. These employees could come into the US with valid work permits for migrate work that Americans would not want. I would like to see these people receive minimum wage… I’d pay a few cents more for an apple. But other than that I agree with you Butch

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/13/2007 9:52:06 PM)
South America, mainly Mexico, was getting a lot of action for a while there - then they too were deemed too expensive when labor was found to be less expensive elsewhere, mainly China and Malaysia. Then India became the darling for educated cheap labor. And now they are eyeballing Africa. They can keep this up for as long as there is any place on earth that will do X job for less. Your privacy concerns do not factor into this equation - your medical records are fine in China and India (fine by the estimation of the corporations, that is). The corporations would just love it if your personal data were to become open for all to see. Your personal information would then become the perfect database entry - perfect for targeted marketing, disqualification from jobs for health reasons, etc. That's information they can sell. Funny, how it seems the information almost belongs to the likes of TRW. Or does it? Another oddball thing about globalization: the laws are not equal everywhere. In some places forced labor is still effectively the norm and in other places your privacy is better protected (until it crosses the wrong border).

popeye1250 -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 12:40:09 AM)
And just who told these corporations that we "need" all this cheap, imported, plastic junk anyway? I get along fine without it. Sometimes I think people must need another room in their houses to store all that crap. When business makes our laws, Houston, we have a problem.

NorthernGent -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 1:22:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy .......well, either free trade is a good thing or it isn't. Free trade is a sound concept; it stimulates ideas and innovation by providing the opportunity to achieve and compete. For me, we start getting at the crux of conservative thought where the matter of trade arises; it seems they value their own sphere of interest far more than the concept of individual liberty....which is fine as a matter for personal taste (to each their own), but let's not dress this up as something it's not: protectionism is a form of control which dampens ideas and enterprise. I've always believed that, at their core, conservatism and socialism have more in common than liberalism and socialism, and trade is one area where this is borne out.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 1:43:16 AM)
"Free Trade" is only likely to benefit "both sides" if the playing field is level. In a Global Market place if one side has high social costs, and expensive labour and the other side does not then both sides.will not beneifit without some form of protectionism, in which case free trade no longer exists. Funnily enough farmers in both Europe and US are well protected and subsidised. note NG inconsistant as usual. Praises competition after making lots of posts saying how much better the world would be if we all co operated and socialism was the norm quote: NG .Free trade is a sound concept; it stimulates ideas and innovation by providing the opportunity to achieve and compete.

NorthernGent -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 2:08:03 AM)
General reply: The idea is to focus on the area where you're strong; all nations have a competitive advantage of some description. There's no sense in attempting to control the supply of household goods; this energy would be much better channelled into R&D - 'particularly thinking about looking over the horizon at the big winners in 10 to 20 years time and getting to the market first. The Americans have a big advantage on most nations: they're a very demanding market, rivalled only by the Japanese. Surely, it makes more sense to take advantage of this demanding market by throwing your weight behind R&D rather than attempt to control the supply of £50 televisions. quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave note NG inconsistant as usual. Praises competition after making lots of posts saying how much better the world would be if we all co operated and socialism was the norm Trade is a form of co-operation, Seeks, it brings people together and promotes ideas, and, yes, co-operation is constructive. Based on your sentence (above), I can only deduce that you do not have the ability to grasp simple notions. Worse still, you're dishonest: you keep making these "Socialist" claims and I've asked you to pull up a post where I've advocated Socialism; you can't, but insist on throwing the "Socialist" label around. If I were you, I'd re-assess my values, and address the dishonesty that blights your character.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 2:21:49 AM)
quote: from NG 1)Free trade is a sound concept; it stimulates ideas and innovation by providing the opportunity to achieve and compete. 2)Trade is a form of co-operation. Competitiion is not a synonym for cooperation. In (2) you should have said barter OK ?

meatcleaver -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 2:55:20 AM)
Unless Americans turn their back on capitalism what can Americans have to complain about? What Americans are seeing is capitalism at work. What is coming to an end and what is effecting America is its decline as an imperial power. The European powers went through a similar decline in their imperail power and had to adjust to the world they found themselves in, a world where they had to make compromises with people they used to exploit.

pahunkboy -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 3:18:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Zensee's right, Canada got screwed too as well as the people of Mexico. It's funny, maybe 10-20,000 people in the U.S. made out like bandits from Nafta and the other 299,980,000 people got screwed from it and nothing's been done about it! what ever happened to "win-win" ? this mode can not continue unchecked. the peasants will revolt.

pahunkboy -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 3:29:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Unless Americans turn their back on capitalism what can Americans have to complain about? What Americans are seeing is capitalism at work. What is coming to an end and what is effecting America is its decline as an imperial power. The European powers went through a similar decline in their imperail power and had to adjust to the world they found themselves in, a world where they had to make compromises with people they used to exploit. It certainly is something to think about, [tho] I am not sure it is that simple. "Empire" spends more then all other countries combined. We now are seeing unchecked power- corporate power. Instead of targeting - say a group of business men, they can now hide under the cloak of corporation. Shell corporations ad naueseon- In my view- the growth from 250 million to 300 million is frought with growing pains. Add to this the lack of good governance- giving to keys to the candy store to Mattel, an aging population; the falacies of the American persona; the playa of religions, devisiveness, fricken gay marriage... and we have J-lo, brittany titalation, in between the boogieman terror pronouncements- the whole while the candy store is being gutted! Being that war produces tecknology- we "should" be rife with new teck shortly. But then, war also make poetry and the arts shine too. ^ still waiting ^ thats it. we live in a corporate candy store- and ceos get the candy- not anyone else...... well its all legalistic.

Politesub53 -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 3:53:16 AM)
Popeye does foreign oil come under the list of " No Buy " goods ? Everyone talks about the loss of skilled jobs to overseas, but the traditionally skilled jobs are disapearing through other reasons, such as new technology and manufacturing procedures.

NorthernGent -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 4:37:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Unless Americans turn their back on capitalism what can Americans have to complain about? What Americans are seeing is capitalism at work. What is coming to an end and what is effecting America is its decline as an imperial power. The European powers went through a similar decline in their imperail power and had to adjust to the world they found themselves in, a world where they had to make compromises with people they used to exploit. Capitalism isn't the problem, and England is still a huge advocate of liberal trade (regardless of empire); one of the stumbling blocks of the EU is the French desire to subsidise and the English desire to liberalise. There's nothing inherently flawed in the principle of organising people for production and encouraging investment and return; the opportunity to prosper stimulates ideas and knowledge. Elitism is the problem. There were haves and have nots long before the union of fire and water, to the extent that a peasant's life was a mere subsistence. An argument suggesting that people, say the people of England, are worse off today in comparison to 400 years ago...well, I can't accept that. 400 years ago, I would have been one of those peasants working morning 'til night in exchange for a bed/floor: I know the era in which I'd rather live; living to work and praying to god for salvation ain't my idea of life. I don't think we're that civilised and the human race has a long way to go down that path; we're yet to work out how best to organise ourselves so that elitism, whether that be in the form of Kings, Corporations or Government, doesn't take root.

Owner59 -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 7:28:57 AM)
Is it right that bush(and by that ,also us)threaten another nation or try to influence their voters with threats? Is "my way,or the highway",a good foreign/trade policy? http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071006/pl_nm/usa_costarica_trade_dc_7

Owner59 -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 8:23:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Unless Americans turn their back on capitalism what can Americans have to complain about? What Americans are seeing is capitalism at work. What is coming to an end and what is effecting America is its decline as an imperial power. The European powers went through a similar decline in their imperail power and had to adjust to the world they found themselves in, a world where they had to make compromises with people they used to exploit. "Unless Americans turn their back on capitalism what can Americans have to complain about? What Americans are seeing is capitalism at work." I agree with those who don`t feel this way. There are many kinds capitalism.Capitalism is as old as mankind is.And has taken many ,many forms.We will always have some form of capitalism,b/c it`s natural. It`s not at all ,"inherently" bad. It is un-fettered,predatory,un-checked,"lessie-faire capitalism",that`s the problem,and has been through out history. From the beginning,men have had the tendency to dump their wastes/poisons/garbage/soot/slag/run-off, just anywhere.Like the drain, a stream,or a hidden dump. Doing this would make the most profits,which is the aim of capitalism. To the extent that these douche bags did`t kill,poison or make the locals sick,they could get away with this. Over time things have tightened up to the point where now, you just can`t dump,bury or burn your wastes anymore.Not legally ,anyway. Regulated capitalism,scrutinized by public/private accountants/auditors,that lives and works with the law,Is just about the best thing we could want and hope for. By we,I mean the middle class,working class ,and the poor. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Does anyone recognize the catch phrase, "Get government off the backs of the people",or "We`vie got to reduce or eliminate "~Government Regulation~"? Those are code words for the UN-fettered,out of control,fascist-like capitalism ,that give the system a bad name. I won`t get into which political party uses those phrases,but those kinds of policies only benefit corporate America,rich people,and the elite.Not us. "We the people",get the pollution,anti-union crap,a higher tax burden,less protection from harm/death(so called torte reform),no bankruptcy protection(anyone notice that when we lost our bankruptcy protection,corporate America didn`t?They can go under, just as before and charge it to us.Is that fair?)and the expense/cost of setting up the infrastructures,that allow businesses to do business, and make money in the 1st place.

popeye1250 -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 11:57:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Popeye does foreign oil come under the list of " No Buy " goods ? Everyone talks about the loss of skilled jobs to overseas, but the traditionally skilled jobs are disapearing through other reasons, such as new technology and manufacturing procedures. Polite, it certainly does! We should be much more aggressive in exploring and developing other (not "alternative") sources of energy! What is happening now is not "capitalism." And if Bush wants to do more of it you know it's not good for the average person! Bush doesn't represent the "average person."

pahunkboy -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 11:59:28 AM)
^ nods profusely ^ at bush doest represent the average person. 08 field looks rather empty too.

farglebargle -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 12:08:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Unless Americans turn their back on capitalism what can Americans have to complain about? What Americans are seeing is capitalism at work. What is coming to an end and what is effecting America is its decline as an imperial power. The European powers went through a similar decline in their imperail power and had to adjust to the world they found themselves in, a world where they had to make compromises with people they used to exploit. It's UNREGULATED and UNRESTRAINED Artificial Legal Entities, not "Capitalism" per-se which is objectionable. I have NO PROBLEM with Sam Walton doing whatever HE chooses to do. I have a BIG PROBLEM when Wal-Mart forgets that they are The People's Bitches and start getting uppity.

popeye1250 -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 12:54:52 PM)
Also, Congress is abdicating it's responsibility on any trade that goes on between this country and foreign countries to the President. It's not a President's responsibility to come up with "trade" bills, that's the job of the Congress and only the Congress! And this "fast track" crap is just that, crap!. Another provision snuck in by the lobbyists on "K" street? Nafta has cost the U.S. 3 million jobs! Why didn't Bush mention that and say he'd get us out of it? Bush is "Bought and Paid for" by big business!

Maya2001 -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/14/2007 1:15:13 PM)
The real government is not the party leaders like Bush or Clinton they are only the mouth pieces , the real decision makers and rapists of the country are the big corporate giants That became obvious to me when General Motors got caught with the Canadian government try to push through policies here, luckily what they were trying to do was leaked to the unions including copies of what they were agreeing to , so once they knew they got caught red handed they backed off, Who has the most to benefit from deals such as NAFTA ?? It allows the big manufacturing corporations to take the work out of the country have parts of the product made elsewhere and ship it back into the US without the added costs of tarriffs. The big corps have little regard for the employees or communities they sent up in, all they care about is maximizing profits , when the dollar fell in Canada and with the cheaper medical costs The Big # automakers moved a lot of operations from Michigan to Ontario leaving in their wake mass unemployment and devalued housing as not only the workers were affected but also other businesses were hit hard since the workers no longer had money to spend turning once thriving communities into ghost towns. the same now is happening here as they look for cheaper places to produce or they attack the workers trying to force unbelievable major concessions that would leave many worker facing bankruptcy if they accept the terms offered, the other tactics included replacing retiring workers with temp agency workers that are earning far less than the worker they stand beside with the bitterness the quality of the vehicles suffer, is it necessary for the big 3 autoworkers to take major concessions ???? I do not believe so, as I watch the Toyota workers earning more and recieving even larger benefits and yet they are thriving within the same geopgraphical areas, but the big difference I see is how top heavy GM plants have become in the last 12 years I have watch the workforce decline while management nearly doubled in the same period leaveing them carrying a lot of dead weight that does nothing in terms of earning profit, I would much rather see a robot installed over 5 more salaried staff walking around with their hands in their pockets at least the robot aids in production and earning profit, with the way they are running their plants I sure as heck have no interest in having them running the country

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