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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:42:49 PM   
SixFootMaster


Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

So I'm facing a bit of a curious spot, so charlotte and I thought we'd see what others had to say.

charlotte has a strong interest in the punishment aspect of D/s.  Very distinct from painplay or masochism, she enjoys being owned by a man who will punish her harshly, severely.  Yet she's also extremely pliant, obedient, and frankly I'm not a hard man to please.  So a question presents itself; if a slave's purpose is to obey, and part of her motivation to obey is to be punished, yet she's a good slave, and rarely needs that punishment exercised, what's to be done?

Scene's aren't the answer here, I don't think.  We do engage in pain play, but the psychological drive is very different there.  I don't see there being anything about being a 'bad' slave for wanting to be punished.  Nothing suggests that her desire comes from  a bad mental or emotional place; it's just a fundamental part of her personality.

I could certainly establish a greater degree of rules and structure, but I don't wish to stretch the warm, loving relationship we've established in the process.  I don't do the cold, distant thing well, and frankly I would imagine it to demand more of my time and energy than it should require on any level other than the occasional.

So.. any thoughts?  Anyone experience this sort of thing?

Thanks,

Stephan

p.s. A couple comments from charlotte as she read this;

"I like to be punished, but I don't want to be disobedient.  It's not a desire to be bratty."




Tricky one, Stephann. My suggestion is to find something that IS important to you that you demand excellence in, and see how she handles it. It's not a desire to be punished for the sake of punishment, but for the demonstration of the willingness and ability to punish if she fails to meet your standards, to know that you will hold her to them. She doesn't want to disappoint you, but she needs to know that if she does, you will very quickly take her in hand and teach her better. At least, that is the feeling I'm getting from your post.

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:54:05 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		Damn man, just go digging. Have her be responsible for housecleaning, there is no way anyone can keep a house immaculate in all places at all times. Then all you have to do is grab a white glove and something capable of laying out some good consequences and go to town. Not to sound like a pig, but if she does keep house incredibly well, throw in the car, laundry etc...sooner or later errors are going to start to appear.
Its a win/win, she gets what she needs, and you get to live in pristine surroundings.Hell, have her lanscape while you are at it.

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:56:40 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		~FR~

Stephan and Charlotte.. I know you said that you didn't want to go the scene route, but have you thought that, maybe, a confession scene might work for you two in which all your transgressions are examined at once (perhaps once a week or something?) then the appropriate punishments put into place for the transgressions? You can actually keep track in a log book or something of every little transgression which takes place, confess, mete out the punishment then move on to the next week and the next page in the log book.

I'm stumped because I don't actually 'crave' punishment unless I've screwed up and even then, it comes from a place where I'm looking for absolution for my sin. Sorry I can't be of more help. :(

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to SixFootMaster)
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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:59:09 PM   
Ryeguy91


Posts: 28
Joined: 10/9/2007
From: Pittsburgh
Status: offline
quote:

a confession scene might work for you two in which all your transgressions are examined at once (perhaps once a week or something?) then the appropriate punishments put into place for the transgressions?


For what its worth, I think this is a very good idea, though, if she really is the good girl she seems to be and has nothing to confess, it really won't work out unless she makes something up :)

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 11:22:39 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		I've never encountered this personally, but I have heard of others that make a set time each week, or bi-weekly, whatever works, for "punishment" and flog, cane, whip, whatever your choice is at that set time each week regardless of whether there was misbehavior or not.

I've been in the unwinnable situations (talk clearer with a gag on, or don't move when he's pushing you and much bigger) and frankly it doesn't feel like punishment, it feels like play (to me).
l

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 10/15/2007 11:23:15 PM >

(in reply to Ryeguy91)
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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 11:34:38 PM   
SDFemDom4cuck


Posts: 2809
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
Status: offline 		Stephann

I'm a firm believer in behavior modification and proactive discipline. My usual method being a weekly (Sunday) ritual of confessional. The journal was reviewed and any naughty little confessions were made in regard to actions and behaviors that may have occured throughout the week.

While larger trangressions were handled immediately the smaller ones were met with, "The consequences of your actions will be dealt with on Sunday". Not quite unlike the infamous words "Just wait till your father gets home" for their ability to chill the blood to a slow crawl. There's nothing like it to cause a bit of anticipation and trepidation on what was to come for Sunday. Who doesn't love a mind fuck? Also not a bad way to ensure a smooth start to the week ahead.

There's no need to be bratty, no reason of setting anyone up for failure, and there's no need to make up a scene. It was simply a weekly protocol I found helpful, not to mention enjoyable.

Just my .05 (if gas prices can go up, so can the price of my opinion)

Edited because I evidently could have simply read all the posts and agreed with Bita.

< Message edited by SDFemDom4cuck -- 10/15/2007 11:36:00 PM >

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 11:36:22 PM   
SixFootMaster


Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck

Stephann

I'm a firm believer in behavior modification and proactive discipline. My usual method being a weekly (Sunday) ritual of confessional. The journal was reviewed and any naughty little confessions were made in regard to actions and behaviors that may have occured throughout the week.

While larger trangressions were handled immediately the smaller ones were met with, "The consequences of your actions will be dealt with on Sunday". Not quite unlike the infamous words "Just wait till your father gets home" for their ability to chill the blood to a slow crawl. There's nothing like it to cause a bit of anticipation and trepidation on what was to come for Sunday. Who doesn't love a mind fuck? Also not a bad way to ensure a smooth start to the week ahead.

There's no need to be bratty, no reason of setting anyone up for failure, and there's no need to make up a scene. It was simply a weekly protocol I found helpful, not to mention enjoyable.

Just my .05 (if gas prices can go up, so can the price of my opinion)


Pretty good suggestion *takes a note of it*. FWIW, You should be charging about 0.30 now.

(in reply to SDFemDom4cuck)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 11:39:33 PM   
SDFemDom4cuck


Posts: 2809
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck

Stephann

I'm a firm believer in behavior modification and proactive discipline. My usual method being a weekly (Sunday) ritual of confessional. The journal was reviewed and any naughty little confessions were made in regard to actions and behaviors that may have occured throughout the week.

While larger trangressions were handled immediately the smaller ones were met with, "The consequences of your actions will be dealt with on Sunday". Not quite unlike the infamous words "Just wait till your father gets home" for their ability to chill the blood to a slow crawl. There's nothing like it to cause a bit of anticipation and trepidation on what was to come for Sunday. Who doesn't love a mind fuck? Also not a bad way to ensure a smooth start to the week ahead.

There's no need to be bratty, no reason of setting anyone up for failure, and there's no need to make up a scene. It was simply a weekly protocol I found helpful, not to mention enjoyable.

Just my .05 (if gas prices can go up, so can the price of my opinion)


Pretty good suggestion *takes a note of it*. FWIW, You should be charging about 0.30 now.



LOL yes nothing like seeing the slight tremble occur when the "Big Book of Punishment was cracked open and the punishment was being tallied up aloud. Ah...good times.

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 11:40:01 PM   
sarahL


Posts: 3
Joined: 10/15/2007
Status: offline 		Thata what my daddy used to do.. delay my punishment ..  it was so controlling

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 12:17:49 AM   
Phoenix2raven


Posts: 347
Joined: 10/14/2006
Status: offline 		raven says:
i've been in a similar situation as your slave, Stephan. i never wanted to be disobedient, and if i was set up to be disobedient somehow, i'd go nuts trying to obey, then i'd cry my eyes out and feel genuinely miserable. it's not a bad thing, though ... you can work around it.

ever try an interrogation? you can make it as simple as having her guess what number you're thinking of ... and you choose a very large number she could never, ever guess. now, unless she's psychic (in which case order her to go buy some lottery tickets! *grins*), she gets punished for each wrong answer. you can get creative, think of all sorts of things you can ask her to guess, or perhaps have her try to identify objects solely by their sound, or scent, or feel against her arm while she's blindfolded. interrogation scenes seem to work best when the victim gets a few guesses right,
for self-esteem's sake.

hehe i need to remind Sir how much i love interrogation scenes. but then i know i'll regret it. but i'll love it. *lol*

< Message edited by Phoenix2raven -- 10/16/2007 12:27:03 AM >

_____________________________

If you're a Dominate, are you looking for a sublimate?

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 12:24:14 AM   
Phoenix2raven


Posts: 347
Joined: 10/14/2006
Status: offline 		charlotte, is your desire for punishment perhaps a need for the absolution that comes at the end of being punished?

_____________________________

If you're a Dominate, are you looking for a sublimate?

(in reply to charlotte12)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 12:46:15 AM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		nice sig line!
l

(in reply to Phoenix2raven)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 3:04:28 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Yeah, like is coming out on the thread, realize it is a dynamic of the relationship. It is almost a ritual thing with her that you should honor. Get in her face when she is standing nude and vulnerable. You can make her mess up enough to find reasons for punishment. The emotional aspect may even increase the pleasure.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 3:19:40 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Oh, it works great!  The trouble is she keeps crawling back for more.  I don't want to feel I need to spend six hours a night just for her to get her kicks   It's not just that she wants punishment; it's almost as if she needs it a LOT more than any other submissive or slave I've dealt with.

For me punishment is painful, humiliating and i do not get my kicks from it in any way. Punishment in my opinion should not be about anyone getting their kicks, its about behaviour management.
All i can see from the comments you have made here about her thoughts on punishment is that to her it is welcome and emjoyed play. If thats the case then in my opinion it should be kept as play.
Real punishment should be reserved in my opinion for those times when she has misbehaved, not set up to fail, really failed.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 3:52:48 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryeguy91

... "Discipline" on the other hand, I consider to be more of a 'pre-emptive' punishment.  Letting her know, on a semi- regular basis that "This is what I am capable of.  This is what happens when you disobey etc" But done as encouragement to NOT disobey.  Perhaps you could take time now and again to prove the “dog’s not all bark” ...


This was my first thought as a possibility.

(in reply to Ryeguy91)
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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 4:21:15 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Would maintenance spankings be sufficiently fulfilling to her? Sort of getting the punishment before the crime. Instead of getting a punishment and then regaining the correct headspace, you get reinforcement of the headspace ahead of time.

(in reply to charlotte12)
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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 4:33:13 AM   
flag133


Posts: 19
Joined: 9/29/2007
Status: offline 		punishment is the way to make the slave obey his mistress so he fits her need and pleasure. It is not the slave, who selects the play of course, it is in the most instances not his pleasure but his nature to be the pleasure of his mistress.


(in reply to Celeste43)
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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 4:57:48 AM   
shycara


Posts: 12
Joined: 5/26/2007
Status: offline 		this:
 
quote:

I agree; I've never encountered this type of desire.  I can rationally see where it's coming from (maybe on par with the concept of sticking pins in one's body, to relieve pain? LOL)  More seriously, I am guessing that she has a powerful drive to be made to fear and respect the person she serves (she nods as she reads me writing this between my hands) and that fear and respect encourage her to obey (as does her desire to please me, from a more emotional level.)  Yet without feeling the growl and bite from disobedience, she's left to wonder if there really are any teeth to those rules and expectations (more nodding.)  And, because she does love and care for me, emotionally, she's even further driven to obey - thus leaving her incapable of willingly disobeying me to a degree where she'd be punished for a transgression.

 
and this:
 
quote:

Well i finally got my turn at the computer so i'll attempt to explain a little. I really don't want to dissapoint my Master (actually i hate dissapointing just about anyone i care about in my life.)  So i get these urges to be bratty or disobey in order to be punished but would be horribly upset with myself if i actually did something that upset him. I understand where chellekitty is coming from with her question about why i want to be punished but honestly i just don't know the answer. I do know that ever since i was very little i loved to imagine being punished and would go back and re-read the sections in books where someone was punished. It's not about the pain, i enjoy being spanked but its' a different kind of feeling. It's about the headspace it puts me in. I want to feel taken down a notch or two (or three .) I enjoy  feeling helpless and i get all wet and tingly when i'm threatened with something i do not enjoy (such as being made to taste soap for saying something i wasn't supposed to.) So it's not the activities that i crave, i can certainly get my share of pain play by asking nicely. I don't know if this craving for being put in my place comes from a negative place or not but it turns me on like almost nothing else and just seemed like a fun fantasy when i was younger so i don't remember it coming from negative feelings about myself. Believe me i have enough issues with guilt to recognize when that's the emotion driving it lol.



really resonate with me....charlotte, i think i'm a lot like you in this aspect. i fantasize about punishment because it makes me feel safe and helps me to believe that the limits are real...but i have no desire to be disobedient on purpose....basically i'm a total people-pleaser and nothing makes me happier than doing what is asked of me. also, i feel kind of scornful about being punished for made-up reasons, and angry or resentful when i'm punished for stuff that's unreasonable or beyond my capacity...so neither of those senarios work for me...

in my limited experience, i've found it useful to ask for a punishment when i need help with something real that's weighing on me. it's usually my standards for myself that are much tougher than anyone else's, so a punishment when i feel i've done something wrong helps to relieve the guilt i feel, and i see it as a gift, but i still feel safe and very much out of ultimate control, mostly because 1) i haven't had a choice about what the punishment will be--careful what you ask for! and 2) sometimes a punishment has been refused me because my judgments of myself tend to be harsh, and i've been told that i take responsibility for more than i should. the most recent example of this was when i asked for a punishment after one of my patients committed suicide. i felt that i should have been able to save him. the punishment was denied and i was reminded that i needed to rescind self-judgment because it was a form of control. this was very hard, and very real, and this kind of interaction deepens my attachment more than any role-play possibly could.

There's one more way i can see more punishment in my life that doesn't feel contrived or unreasonable. That's to be more accountable for my various goals in life, and to work harder to overcome bad habits. i'm a couch potato, i procrastinate, i say 'yes' to more than i can handle, and i love salty, oily things like (Sour Cream and Cheddar potato chips!) that are no good for my health. Behavior change is difficult. if i'm more accountable for these bad habits, then the opportunity for punishment is there, and i feel more loved because i know these habits need to be overcome, no matter how difficult it may be. The real-life consequences of not paying my bills on time are much worse than a spanking, so it's clearly not unreasonable to expect that of me even though it's practically impossible for me to stay on top of them unless i rearrange my priorities considerably. Does this make sense?

hope this helps. thanks for your thoughtful thread...it's very interesting.

cara





(in reply to charlotte12)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 5:34:07 AM   
Dari


Posts: 192
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		The other thing you might try is more training.  Not on how to be an obedient slave, since you seem to have that in spades.  But - pick something that she's always wanted to learn, or that you would enjoy her learning.  Maybe it's to play the piano, maybe it's juggling, maybe a new language - something silly, or fun, or something that tickles your fancy.  Start her on lessons, and then punishment comes if, say - she doesn't practice enough.  Or she makes too many mistakes (give her a set number that reduces each week), or for any other reason that seems suitable.

No one's perfect at something new the first time, and it seems that just as much as she has a need for punishment, she also needs to see you expanding her boundaries, holding her to higher standards, and knowing that you'll be there, pushing her to excel - and punishing her when she doesn't - all the way.  Plus, who wouldn't like a sub who juggles, really?

(in reply to shycara)
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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 6:38:09 AM   
kitttty


Posts: 494
Joined: 10/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

The other thing you might try is more training. Not on how to be an obedient slave, since you seem to have that in spades. But - pick something that she's always wanted to learn, or that you would enjoy her learning. Maybe it's to play the piano, maybe it's juggling, maybe a new language - something silly, or fun, or something that tickles your fancy. Start her on lessons, and then punishment comes if, say - she doesn't practice enough. Or she makes too many mistakes (give her a set number that reduces each week), or for any other reason that seems suitable.


This is what Master does for me. He picks tasks that are useful to me and sets fairly high standards for them. my self esteem is not at all hurt by this because he also rewards what i do properly.

(in reply to Dari)
Profile   Post #: 40
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