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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 7:00:24 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

So I'm facing a bit of a curious spot, so charlotte and I thought we'd see what others had to say.

charlotte has a strong interest in the punishment aspect of D/s.  Very distinct from painplay or masochism, she enjoys being owned by a man who will punish her harshly, severely.  Yet she's also extremely pliant, obedient, and frankly I'm not a hard man to please.  So a question presents itself; if a slave's purpose is to obey, and part of her motivation to obey is to be punished, yet she's a good slave, and rarely needs that punishment exercised, what's to be done?

Scene's aren't the answer here, I don't think.  We do engage in pain play, but the psychological drive is very different there.  I don't see there being anything about being a 'bad' slave for wanting to be punished.  Nothing suggests that her desire comes from  a bad mental or emotional place; it's just a fundamental part of her personality.

I could certainly establish a greater degree of rules and structure, but I don't wish to stretch the warm, loving relationship we've established in the process.  I don't do the cold, distant thing well, and frankly I would imagine it to demand more of my time and energy than it should require on any level other than the occasional.

So.. any thoughts?  Anyone experience this sort of thing?

Thanks,

Stephan

p.s. A couple comments from charlotte as she read this;

"I like to be punished, but I don't want to be disobedient.  It's not a desire to be bratty."




A couple questions...

One does she equate  the punishement as being cared for..loved etc?  By correcting her .. you show that you love her by making the effort to correct her.  It's not so much wanting the attention.. but this type of interaction feeds her need of being loved in some way.    Of course this line of thinking is dependent on her answer.

second... Is she looking for punishment or wanting to be held accountable for her actions.  If she does make an error... are you showing yourself to hold her accountable.  Are the Dominant that will put the effort in when it matters in issues of obedience?  She may need to see and count on this aspect of you... it in some ways is how she see Dominance.... again this may depend on her view of being held accountable.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 7:05:30 AM   
SunNMoon


Posts: 1058
Joined: 3/18/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Would maintenance spankings be sufficiently fulfilling to her? Sort of getting the punishment before the crime. Instead of getting a punishment and then regaining the correct headspace, you get reinforcement of the headspace ahead of time.


This is what I was thinking too. But also a few other ideas are there house rules with punishments listed? This way Charlotte would know that punishment does exist. Or she could just ask, "I need to be punished right now." And then get punished. I also like the idea put forth by both Celeste and Ms Jo.


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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 7:06:55 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		Maintenance spankings are an important thing for me. Without them I tend to get unhappy and tangled up feeling inside.Catharsis.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 7:07:28 AM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		I can relate to this. My best suggestion is over time you can re-wire her to assocate something else with that fear and respect. I have it really bad too. I associated it with punishment to when I met R. In my mind it led to the aggressive physical manifestations I needed from him..my brain associated that with punishment. How he changed it was not punishing me in ways that created those feelings(as unpleasant as they were, they were extremely pleasureable..how is that for a paradox) and primarily not punishing me at all until he established a new path way for me to experience those scary unpleasant, yet pleasant feelings of fear, reverence, and respect. By randomly applying them in non-punishment situations but I wouldn't call them scenes..they were random. I didn't see them coming type things..over time I stopped associating that need to fear and respect him so much with being punished.

I rarely screw up now. So punishment isn't an often brought about consequence these days. I still have the occasional punishment fantasy but most of my fear/respect fantasies/needs revolve around those random acts of violence type stuff that occur when I'm behaving....I wanted to know that menacingly hissed absolute concrete fact of  "You are not my lover, you are my property remember your place or I will put you there" feeling. Time taught me that is my reality but I still like the feelings its induces when he just out of the blue "reminds" me. I don't know exactly how to explain it but I do know the feeling she describes. Change the trigger.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

She desires punishment, yet she is well behaved?

  More seriously, I am guessing that she has a powerful drive to be made to fear and respect the person she serves (she nods as she reads me writing this between my hands) and that fear and respect encourage her to obey (as does her desire to please me, from a more emotional level.)  Yet without feeling the growl and bite from disobedience, she's left to wonder if there really are any teeth to those rules and expectations (more nodding.)  And, because she does love and care for me, emotionally, she's even further driven to obey - thus leaving her incapable of willingly disobeying me to a degree where she'd be punished for a transgression.

I can't imagine how this could be confusing to anyone.  (and yes, we're both laughing.)

Stephan


< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 10/16/2007 7:09:25 AM >

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 7:09:56 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: flag133

punishment is the way to make the slave obey his mistress so he fits her need and pleasure. It is not the slave, who selects the play of course, it is in the most instances not his pleasure but his nature to be the pleasure of his mistress.


That's so sad. You don't have any innate desire to make your loved ones happy. You only do what's ordered because of fear. I can't imagine living in such an abusive environment devoid of love, affection, respect etc.

Hopefully you didn't mean it like this but this is how it reads.

(in reply to flag133)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 7:13:40 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		Perhaps a regular maintenance spanking is in order.

I have instituted these with my slave and she seems to find reassurance in them--a reminder of her place and of the boundaries I have defined for her.

Technically it is not punishment, as there is no sin to expiate.  However, it may give her what she needs.


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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 7:21:36 AM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryeguy91

... "Discipline" on the other hand, I consider to be more of a 'pre-emptive' punishment.  Letting her know, on a semi- regular basis that "This is what I am capable of.  This is what happens when you disobey etc" But done as encouragement to NOT disobey.  Perhaps you could take time now and again to prove the “dog’s not all bark” ...


This is in a nutshell what my long post was trying to get at. "This is what I am capable of"...type of thing. Not a scene, not play, just a warning shot across the bow. It can change the trigger for her.

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 7:31:07 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		When I first started in this, I kept a notebook of transgressions.  Since my first relationship was long distance, the transgressions that were kept track of varied from small to large but lined up along very specific rules or boundaries that were broken.  Many of the smaller ones were handled at the time they were done but a record was kept of them so that each time between visits, she and I could....hopefully...see the number going down.  The larger ones were handled when she was with me.

As time went on, the need to bring the notebook out became less and less.  She actually enjoyed the idea as she wanted to be a good submissive to me and knowing that I kept a notebook and actually enforced the rules was a complete turnaround from what she was used to in her life.  As the marks became fewer and fewer, she justifiably became more proud of herself as my submissive and more aware of just how much structure and discipline mattered to her.  When she became a femdominant, she carried the notebook idea over with her to her own dealings with submissives.

I do believe that punishment and discipline are necessary to reinforce the dynamic and need not take away from the loving, caring headspace created by the dominant and submissive.  But let's face it...part of the reason your submissive is in a D/s dynamic is to be with someone stronger and more controlling than her...someone who WILL show her that the rules are in place and expected to be followed.  But, as others have noted, there is nothing wrong either with reminding her once in awhile, unexpectedly, that you ARE the "boss".  Maintenance spankings or the occasional unexpected throwing over the knee or whatever form of discipline you wish to unleash would seem to be good for the soul of your young lady.

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 7:35:49 AM   
octavia


Posts: 377
Joined: 5/20/2007
Status: offline 		Just watching this thread closely and wanted to mention a few things.  For me, there is a HUGE difference between punishment ( a hot sexy play thing) and disipline ( a warm fuzzy, he really cares about me not play thing) 
When I'm sexy, I want to be punished!  I have heard mention about maintance spanks etc, and I just don't think that would do it for me, not sure about you Charolette, but for me it's all about the fact that I'm being punished for something, not the actual act itself.  beat me, spank me, stand me in the corner, whatever, its the fact that im in trouble for what-o-ever, that turns me on beyond compare.  And personally, the silly,  unreasonable, out of my control reasons for it are hot to me too.  I think it would be totally hot to get a spank cause I didn't hold my legs just right in a scene or whatever. 
Discipline, is a much different thing to me.  Discipline is teaching me, and caring enouph to hold me accountable.  In this part of my relationship, honestly it would crush me for him to get all mean, unreasonable,  and punishing.  I see him as  a gentle, loving, leader, and this would ruin that trust.     As far as disipline goes, I love that he cares enouph to want to help me improve myself, and to hold me accountable.  It helps build the feelings of security and trust.  In this part of our relationship I want his approval, in the sexy part, i want his disaproval. 
Go figure.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 7:48:00 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		after hearing from charlotte...you answered my question btw...i don't know if you realized it or not...but you did....i am wondering if you could get the same pleasure from degredation and debasement play...because, from his posts here, it seems like its fucking with Stephann's head space to have to punish you to give you what you need....so...
i made a post on humiliation vs degredation here http://www.collarchat.com/m_1297234/mpage_1/tm.htm and on the second page it goes into debasement...which we decided was long term degredation, which may or may not be permanent....its too much information to copy and paste here....but...i would suggest that you take a look at that thread and pay attention to the degredation and debasement lines....i don't think you need any help with what i define as humiliation...and see if that might give you what you are seeking with punishment...

good luck
chelle


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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 8:20:01 AM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		Agreed with chelle here. It was a past sub who got off on humilition as a way to feel controlled, that got me into diapering subs. I just could not find a more effective way to make her feel out of control-and lessened-than that.

Bondage, and removing volition came in as a close second. As far as punishing? I chose NOT to-with that one. Her past partners had really messed with her head that way. So there was a lot of confusion with feeling secure. Esteem issues, linked with wondering if I cared enough.

So I just chose other routes that would give her the fix-without making me a nervous wreck.

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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 2:04:02 PM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		i was also wondering, and haven't seen it addressed (at least not that i've seen) to this point, what if the punishment is not corporal in nature, does the punishment have the same affect? What if the punishment assigned was some kind of endless task, still difficult, but not like a spanking or a caning, etc.?  And if only corporal punishment seems to meet the need, could it be stemming from the masochism and not a need for punishment per se?

Hope all those questions make sense.

heartfelt


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Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 3:45:04 PM   
LostMyself


Posts: 72
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		isn't that what SAMminess is for?  Or considering that more play?

(in reply to heartfeltsub)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/16/2007 7:09:29 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Thanks everyone for the responses.  I'll just mention briefly that the question wasn't posed out of any sheer terror or misery between us; truth be told, we're happy as clams.  It's just making sure that all the i's are dotted and t's crossed, and that things continue to go as smooth as possible.

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

A couple questions...

One does she equate  the punishement as being cared for..loved etc?  By correcting her .. you show that you love her by making the effort to correct her.  It's not so much wanting the attention.. but this type of interaction feeds her need of being loved in some way.    Of course this line of thinking is dependent on her answer.

I would say no.  I think it's more of a sense of security, as Chewsie suggested. 

second... Is she looking for punishment or wanting to be held accountable for her actions.

Yes, that's the meat and potatoes here.

If she does make an error... are you showing yourself to hold her accountable. 

I believe so.  Mistakes in speech, form, posture, appearance, performance, service all receive immediate correction and she responds well each time. 

Are (you) the Dominant that will put the effort in when it matters in issues of obedience? 

Yes.  I know what you're driving at; there's an enormous amount of time and effort that goes into owning another person, especially in the beginning of the relationship.  It simply isn't for most people.

She may need to see and count on this aspect of you... it in some ways is how she see Dominance.... again this may depend on her view of being held accountable.

I completely agree.  Thank you for your thoughts.

Everyone else, thank you, especially Sue.

After some reflection, I'll point out that I needed to take into consideration that the relationship is still new, and that there's still a great deal of establishing routine to be done.  We've pretty much determined that the suggestion of changing the trigger is excellent.

It takes time to fundamentally change someone this way; I guess it's a good thing we have an early start and lots of help.

Stephan

_____________________________

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"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/17/2007 12:21:56 AM   
LASub4Real


Posts: 169
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Well Stephann, if you will have my humble advice, it is this:

I think it comes down to WHY you punish.

For example, I have, in past experience had some rather severe punishments, not so much to "reward the crime" but rather to enforce something my Domme thought important. I was shown that "pain teaches." There are things to be taught with the tongue and things to be taught with the whip.

I knew that the mistakes that I had made were small, and sometimes even unavoidable, but the punishment that I recieved was not because I had been bad, but rather to sufficiently impress lessons into my mind through the suffering of my body.

Consult the Catholics if you need more on this idea.

LAsub

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/17/2007 5:05:16 AM   
Kalista07


Posts: 4240
Joined: 7/1/2007
Status: offline 		Stephan,
i want to thank You and Charlotte for posting this thread.  Somehow it seems as if You've both been reading my mind and my struggles.  Recently i've been struggling with this 'need' to be punished.. Although, truth is i can not bring myself to do anything wrong...i simply can not stand that thought of disappointing Him, of hearing that tone of voice from Him, of seeing that look in his eyes. Truth is, i haven't experienced any of these yet and don't truly have a desire to.  So, i suppose i've felt really stuck because while i desired to be punished i could not bring myself to do anything worthy of punishment.
Thanks again,
Kali

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~~Sweedish Proverb


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RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/17/2007 6:36:52 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		Someone once told me that it is natural for anyone in chains to periodically fight against them - just to see if the chains will still hold.

I actually think the only thing *you* can do Stephann is convince her that if she *is* bratty to get the punishment she needs that you won't be genuinely dissappointed with her.  That you understand she needs to rebel, not in order to free herself, but in order to assure herself she really is chained.  After that it's in her hands...she has to be confident enough that a small rebellion won't destroy the relationship, that you won't truly be upset with her on a deep level, but that you will be punishing her to get her back in line.

I am also someone who needs to be punished...sometimes I say 'no' not because I don't want to, but because I wonder if I can get away with it.  As time goes on though and each of my rebellions is met with punishment, that desire gets weaker and weaker as my mind and body are more fully convinced they are owned.  But without testing my boundaries I never would know where they lie.

(in reply to Kalista07)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/17/2007 6:50:32 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

She may need to see and count on this aspect of you... it in some ways is how she see Dominance.... again this may depend on her view of being held accountable.

I completely agree.  Thank you for your thoughts.



It's really  that simple then.... Part of her definition of Dominance is a person that will hold her accountable to her faillings.  It is not because she acts up or chooses to provokes this Dominace.  But an underlying understanding that she is an imperfect human being that will need to be corrected.  Your Active Exercise of Dominance in this particular manner generates Secuity for her in the relationship and with you specifically.  If you fail to be active in your Dominance in this specific manner...you are going to find a girl that will begin to feel insecure or detached from the relationship.  It might be a good idea to learn for yourself signs of insecurity and detachment developing in her behaviors.  This might be a guage for youself to determine your own effectivness in holding her accountable and being active with your Dominance in this specific manner.



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/17/2007 9:19:29 AM   
MsWorthy


Posts: 31
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: charlotte12

Well i finally got my turn at the computer so i'll attempt to explain a little. I really don't want to dissapoint my Master (actually i hate dissapointing just about anyone i care about in my life.)  So i get these urges to be bratty or disobey in order to be punished but would be horribly upset with myself if i actually did something that upset him. I understand where chellekitty is coming from with her question about why i want to be punished but honestly i just don't know the answer. I do know that ever since i was very little i loved to imagine being punished and would go back and re-read the sections in books where someone was punished. It's not about the pain, i enjoy being spanked but its' a different kind of feeling. It's about the headspace it puts me in. I want to feel taken down a notch or two (or three .) I enjoy  feeling helpless and i get all wet and tingly when i'm threatened with something i do not enjoy (such as being made to taste soap for saying something i wasn't supposed to.) So it's not the activities that i crave, i can certainly get my share of pain play by asking nicely. I don't know if this craving for being put in my place comes from a negative place or not but it turns me on like almost nothing else and just seemed like a fun fantasy when i was younger so i don't remember it coming from negative feelings about myself. Believe me i have enough issues with guilt to recognize when that's the emotion driving it lol.


charlotte


What charlotte describes is what I have been searching for....except that I am on the other end of the paddle (or whip, or bar of soap).

How to describe it has been elusive, contradictory, and confusing to me for years now. If it had a name like spanking or role play or play punishment it would be much easier to get a handle on but it doesn't, and I have never been able to find a way to explain what I was searching for.

It comes out sounding like I want to beat, degrade, punish, or humiliate someone without their consent, because a 'scene' involving this 'take you down a peg and put you in your place' just doesn't do it.

It can't be contrived. It can't be pre-arranged. It can't be play or pretend....or it just doesn't work.

The most important element that I can discern is that it is not something my partner wants. It is not something that turns her on (that particular activity). This is not topping from the bottom or manipulation of any sort. But, the dynamic of it must be something she likes -- on some level (otherwise I just feel like an abuser).

The activity that creates the feeling I am trying to describe is not nearly as important and the feeling itself. As charlotte describes, it isn't being spanked (she likes to be spanked), but being spanked may create this feeling in her (?), if it's done for the right reason.

I often try to explain what I am looking for by saying, "If you like anal play and I give it to you, I am no different than a nilla lover whose goal is to make you cum." If, on the other hand, you don't like anal play, then anal play will be the activity I will use to create this elusive feeling that I seek.

Perhaps tasting a bar of soap (she doesn't like the taste of soap) brings charlotte closer to this feeling because it isn't at all erotic. It is not something she will try to get her dom to do. It is associated most closely with punishment in her mind.

None of this is any clearer to me than it was before, but reading someone else try to describe it brings me some relief, because someone out there seems to understand what it is that I am looking for.

There is some hope for my kink afterall.

MsW

(in reply to charlotte12)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/17/2007 1:43:50 PM   
ocilla


Posts: 1764
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline 		This is a really useful and rich thread.  I find this to be very fundamental to the D/s that I've been involved in to date.  And for me the difficulty is that my clarity as well as that of the sub is quite emphemeral...full and well defined after a rain event but shrinks and disappears completely when the sun has been out for a while.

This is one thread I will save for future referencing.

_____________________________

Ocilla

Nature is not a place to visit. It is home.
~ Gary Snyder

It takes a kinky village...

(in reply to MsWorthy)
Profile   Post #: 60
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