sexyred1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DMFParadox
quote:
ORIGINAL: sexyred1
quote:
ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster
Wouldn't that give you the power to manipulate the situation to your advantage?
No. I was just downsized as part of a corporate "restructuring". My new boss is a man. My old boss, who was terrific, actually liked working with women, he hired women on his sales team. The new boss, came in with his old boys network and systematically terminated most of the women.
Ok, Sexyred, I'm thinking this is exactly the kind of perspective that troubles SixFoot. It troubles me, and for this reason I tend to agree with his assessment--groups of women in positions of authority can be a disaster, to both men and women. I think as society adjusts, this will be less true in time; groups of girls will act more like groups of boys. But it hasn't happened yet.
I don't know if I can put this right, but I'll try. Even if his reasons WERE sexist, your boss didn't fire a roomful of women. He fired a roomful of PEOPLE he didn't like. He may not have liked the women there, because they didn't laugh at his jokes, they don't make him feel comfortable about his sexuality, or a dozen stupid reasons. But this is the mistake that women make in the workforce, I've seen it time out of mind: it really is NOT men vs. women. It is ALL about personality and perspective, and if you're lucky, job performance. If your boss had a woman there who DID laugh and could give as good as she got, and would use the same kind of 'masculine' humor when it's time to shit-test, then he will keep her. She'll BE an old boy and a card carrying member of the network, and there are more and more women, thank fvcking god, that are picking up on this and learning to play the game.
Two guys are at work. The boss has a dumb idea, a guy will go, "Dude. Come on." And the boss will say, "I'm the boss. Do it, jerkwad." The guy will go, "It's stupid. Were you drunk when you thought of this?" And the boss will go, "Yeah, your wife gave me your whole stash. What's dumb about it, genius?" And the guy will go, "X is dumb. Remind me to change the locks again, you ass." The boss will go, "Not it's not stupid, because of Y. And there's no point, she'll just let me in anyway" And the guy will go, "Well fvck it then. What the hell, let's do it." And the boss will go, "Damn right, because I said to." And the guy will go, "Ass." And the boss will go, "You know it." The guy will go, "Seriously, this idea has problems, though. What about doing Z?" And the boss goes, "Fine, whatever. Z is good. It's on your shoulders, though." And the guy grins and goes, "You mean where your girl's legs were last night." The boss will go, "Get to work, buddy."
Believe it or not, this was a friendly and productive conversation. No really, it's true. But if either party is a woman, I will lay 90 to 1 odds that this conversation will NOT go as well if the employee outright challenges like that.
If the boss is female, then chances are, she hasn't created an environment that welcomes friendly verbal sparring like that. Or she has, but lost control over it. From what I've seen, female bosses tend to be more "official." or "friendly" in a warm hug kind of way than in a slap on the back kind of way.
If the boss is male and is faced with a female employee that will either not challenge anything he says at all, challenges him so indirectly that it misses his radar, or DOES challenge him and goes WAY over the top with it--she doesn't have the rhythm of an exchange like this, she misfires and comes across as an irresponsible bitch, even if all she's trying to do is play the game like her boss wants her to. But seriously, men have been doing conversations exactly like this one since they were boys and they discovered that throwing dirt clods at each other was the best fun ever.
From boyhood, men challenge each other. We try to gross each other out. We get into fights. Hell, if you let us, we can get really deadly to each other. Atomic wedgies are not fun at all, and the geeks and nerds really do catch hell from the jocks in the most direct way possible. Boys bully each other directly. And as a result, we learn to hit back. A "Hey retard!" gets a "What the f* do you want?" A punch on the arm earns you a gay joke--test, counter. Balance.
Women bully each other INDIRECTLY. Oh, don't get me wrong, you do a lot of the same things us guys do; but there's an added element there. An undercurrent of, "Put a good face on it." It's much more about status within the group; and of the group; less about mano a mano. If some dude makes me look bad enough in public, he's taking a risk that I and my buddies will fvcking kill him. Literally. If a girl makes another girl look bad, then there is much less of a downside; which is why sometimes it's said that girls are a lot meaner to each other than guys are.
There is more to gain and less to lose when Alice who likes your boyfriend has a chance to make you look bad. This is the problem women face.
To compensate, women do two things in combination. First, they learn very quickly to be sensitive to changes in the weather. A glance, a snarky comment, will immediately be noticed and fretted over. Second, women will develop a philosophy of "Every woman here has Value, because if we didn't, then Alice is free to strike." And if somebody from the outside--say, a man, or a new female employee--does something to challenge your value, then the hammer will come down HARD. Too hard.
Mob mentality is not flexible. If a guy or a girl has the boss--female--tell them to do something stupid, s/he may call her on it. S/he probably won't be as outright insulting as my example above, but s/he'll challenge her. And The Bosse will say either yes or no... but that won't be the end of it. She'll talk about it. She'll get nervous, angry, and uptight around that employee, and she may not even remember why. And the other female bosses, perceptive as they are, will pick up on this. And that employee will become a PARIAH.
As you said... "I have found in the corporate world that women in power generally support each other, as we have to fight to keep our place." Men have to fight to keep our place too. Every day. But the difference is, we're used to it. And we don't call out the Male Establishment to deal with our problems, for the most part, no matter how it may look to women on the outside. We are expected to stand on our own. And more importantly, we EXPECT to have dirt thrown at us, and we don't feel it as much when it happens. (The ones who whine too much are immediately labeled as pussies... tells you something.)Women do feel it. And they communicate that feeling, consciously or unconsciously. Which is why women in authority are Trouble with extra caps on that T. In isolation, they can be brought into the boy's club, but get two or more women in the same room and you have a chance of Alice showing her face. At that point, every women there tears up her Boy's Club card and reverts to the female defense system. You dig?
Actually, no, I don't "dig" at all, for quite a few reasons. One, I don't "dig" sweeping generalizations of the way all men or all women act. I was relating what actually happened to ME and other women at MY company and to many other women I know personally of a certain age and status level in business.
Your description of the the frat boy posturing of men in business does happen, and whilst women can participate or attempt to participate in that, it sometimes does work and sometimes does not work.
I also do not understand what you mean by "calling out the Male Establishment to solve our problems". I don't believe women call out to anyone normally for help, they either never complain, blindly accept what happens to them, or as in the recent Isaiah Thomas case, fight back and win.
In my case, the women before me who were terminated were given big enough severance packages that they will not fight back, but not me. I am hiring the same attorney.
Oh, and completely and totally disagree that my boss fired a group of PEOPLE. Please, give me a break....patterns are patterns and if you never notice a pattern and try to break it, it will continue.
I also do not "dig" your assumption that I or any other women when challenging or speaking her mind deems her as failing to play the game. You seem to indicate that it is in our very nature to fail at being able to interpret the secret boys club code.
Perhaps when you have experienced what I and women I know have been through, you might be able to empathize.
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