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submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" - 10/30/2007 6:33:39 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		Why do you think this sort of thing happens?

What could possibly cause someone who claims submission,to want such control over the one he or she supposedly wishes to surrender to?

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:38:21 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
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Status: offline 		Because they can.

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:40:21 PM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Why do you think this sort of thing happens?

What could possibly cause someone who claims submission,to want such control over the one he or she supposedly wishes to surrender to?


I notice this a lot, and think about this a lot.
Many submissives are only submissive to what they want to submit TOO.
Also, there are many submissives that have the upper hand in D/s relationships.

The reason I think it happens a lot, is because many Dominants go along with it.
It is not easy to deal with this situation, and often people don't want to walk away.
I think there are more Tops around here than Dominants anyway...
but that is another story!

< Message edited by MzMia -- 10/30/2007 6:43:59 PM >

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:40:34 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		greetings rrafe,

perhaps because some think that "surrender" means surrendering to their idea of what submission ought to be rather than surrendering to an actual person? thus manipulation or an attempt to control the actions of the person they are supposedly surrendering to ensues, in order to change the situation to suit their idea of how things should be?

i'm not sure if that actually answers your issue - i am not entirely sure i have understood the question. but i think it is an interesting one.

respectfully,
annabelle.


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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:41:23 PM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Why do you think this sort of thing happens?


Because the Dominant allows it to happen.  Nature abhors a vacuum, including a lack of control.

quote:


What could possibly cause someone who claims submission,to want such control over the one he or she supposedly wishes to surrender to?


There are several potential causes I can think of, and as people vary considerably, there are probably many other causes that I can't think of.
 
1.  Filling a control void.  See above.
 
2.  Wanting to feel overpowered.
 
3.  Fear of surrender (that fantasy vs. reality thing again).
 
4.  Fear of surrender (wrong partner).
 
5.  An underdeveloped relationship (ie: the cart has been put before the horse).
 
John

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:42:20 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		Mind you, I am a bit fuzzy tonight but here goes. I think it can happen when the d type doesn't exert enough or possibly the right kind of control, so the s type tries to manipulate that into being. I think it is more a lack of communication and compatibility than anything else.Generally.'Course there are those that think they are an s type but really aren't. 

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:44:33 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

greetings rrafe,

perhaps because some think that "surrender" means surrendering to their idea of what submission ought to be rather than surrendering to an actual person? thus manipulation or an attempt to control the actions of the person they are supposedly surrendering to ensues, in order to change the situation to suit their idea of how things should be?

i'm not sure if that actually answers your issue - i am not entirely sure i have understood the question. but i think it is an interesting one.

respectfully,
annabelle.



So you mean they may just be selfishly using someone to faccillitate a fantasy they have?

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:45:48 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

Mind you, I am a bit fuzzy tonight but here goes. I think it can happen when the d type doesn't exert enough or possibly the right kind of control, so the s type tries to manipulate that into being. I think it is more a lack of communication and compatibility than anything else.Generally.'Course there are those that think they are an s type but really aren't. 


Being a whimp leads to the submissive taking the upper hand by default?

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:47:20 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
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Status: offline 		I agree with you Rover, 100%, but than I usually do.


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Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:48:11 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Why do you think this sort of thing happens?


Because the Dominant allows it to happen.  Nature abhors a vacuum, including a lack of control.

quote:


What could possibly cause someone who claims submission,to want such control over the one he or she supposedly wishes to surrender to?


There are several potential causes I can think of, and as people vary considerably, there are probably many other causes that I can't think of.
 
1.  Filling a control void.  See above.
 
2.  Wanting to feel overpowered.
 
3.  Fear of surrender (that fantasy vs. reality thing again).
 
4.  Fear of surrender (wrong partner).
 
5.  An underdeveloped relationship (ie: the cart has been put before the horse).
 
John


I agree. Haste, and a lack of foresight lead to bad situations.

A dominant not being willing to enforce personal boundaries for fear of loss can lead to losing the upper hand when tested.

Should we be willing to walk away-rather than be stepped on?

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:50:31 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		greetings rrafe,

i don't think that it's necessarily to "facilitate their fantasy," or even that they are doing it consciously. i think that when we have a preconceived notion of how something should be, and the reality of it doesn't match up, it is natural for humans sometimes to try to manipulate the situation to fit our notion. in my opinion, that can be one of the causes of topping from the bottom, and it's possible to do it without realizing it (although it's possible to do it consciously as well). it also doesn't necessarily mean that the submissive is completely selfish or self-centered, in my opinion; it may be that in some areas of the relationship they experience actual surrender and in other areas they attempt to manipulate, knowingly or unknowingly, or that they are simply in the wrong situation for them/they are not compatible, among other things. while it CAN be a clear-cut case of someone doing something to be selfish, a brat, just for the purposes of perpetuating their own fantasy, etc. i don't think that it is usually that black and white. but i do think that our preconceived ideas of what it means to be a submissive or what we want submission and domination to look like can be one of the root causes of it.

respectfully,
annabelle.


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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:52:21 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

greetings rrafe,

i don't think that it's necessarily to "facilitate their fantasy," or even that they are doing it consciously. i think that when we have a preconceived notion of how something should be, and the reality of it doesn't match up, it is natural for humans sometimes to try to manipulate the situation to fit our notion. in my opinion, that can be one of the causes of topping from the bottom, and it's possible to do it without realizing it (although it's possible to do it consciously as well). it also doesn't necessarily mean that the submissive is completely selfish or self-centered, in my opinion; it may be that in some areas of the relationship they experience actual surrender and in other areas they attempt to manipulate, knowingly or unknowingly, or that they are simply in the wrong situation for them/they are not compatible, among other things. while it CAN be a clear-cut case of someone doing something to be selfish, a brat, just for the purposes of perpetuating their own fantasy, etc. i don't think that it is usually that black and white. but i do think that our preconceived ideas of what it means to be a submissive or what we want submission and domination to look like can be one of the root causes of it.

respectfully,
annabelle.



If a sub really desires a place in which she can express her submission........How can she aid her partner in helping that to come to pass?

Without becoming the Dom herself?

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:52:39 PM   
Dragynsfury


Posts: 79
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		I'm going to go with selfishness and manipulation on the part of the "submissive" who isn't really submissive at all and a dominant who has allowed themself to be blindsided by this selfish sort.  That being said doesn't make the dominant a wimp by any means.  Perhaps they conceded so that the sub would get thier wants met and the dominant hoped to get thier wants met the next time around.

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:54:04 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragynsfury

I'm going to go with selfishness and manipulation on the part of the "submissive" who isn't really submissive at all and a dominant who has allowed themself to be blindsided by this selfish sort.  That being said doesn't make the dominant a wimp by any means.  Perhaps they conceded so that the sub would get thier wants met and the dominant hoped to get thier wants met the next time around.


So playing tit for tat enables this to happen?

Rather than standing firm,or passing on a situation  that looks bleak?

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:57:58 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		I will tell you RRafe, I don't go for it.
But then, that might explain why I don't have a submissive.
 
lol

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:58:40 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I will tell you RRafe, I don't go for it.
But then, that might explain why I don't have a submissive.
 
lol


Same here, but who wants to be the slave of a slave?

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 6:59:57 PM   
Dragynsfury


Posts: 79
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		Sometimes it doesn't seem bleak.  Might take a few times of  this happening for it to become clear.  That's why I'm big on HONESTY.  I adopted a new policy to prevent this from happening-My way or the highway.  Submission from day one after the meet.

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 7:00:44 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		greetings rrafe,

then she either needs to find a dominant who is willing to provide the kind of submission that she thinks submission is (which in my humble opinion is not really subission at all)...or accept the fact that submission does NOT always fit what we want submission to be, and be open enough to a different situation to not try and manipulate it into the kind of situation she wants. obviously discussing problems, desires, issues of compatibility, etc. come into play as well...again, it's not a clear-cut issue of "get over it or leave." there may be a way to compromise; maybe the dominant can provide for whatever desire the submissive is not getting and is trying to control the situation over, or maybe not.

for example, i need a lot of physical affection. he is not one for giving physical affection hardly at all. in the beginning of the relationship i caught myself trying to manipulate the situation so that i could fulfill that need, stopped myself, and expressed that need to him. i've come to accept that being without physical affection to a certain degree is part and parcel of being his slave; because he knows i enjoy it and he doesn't mind it from time to time, every now and then he will put a bit of effort into being more affectionate than he might otherwise be. i'm no longer trying to control the situation to fit what i want because i have come to the realization that being his slave doesn't include controlling the situation to fulfill all of my needs. i'm not sure if that really explains it very well, but i hope that answers your question.

respectfully,
annabelle.


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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 7:01:31 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I will tell you RRafe, I don't go for it.
But then, that might explain why I don't have a submissive.
 
lol


Same here, but who wants to be the slave of a slave?


I will not, no way.
I will not be a submissive to a submissive, unless
I am sick, incapcitated, desperate or dying.
 
 

< Message edited by MzMia -- 10/30/2007 7:04:02 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant&q... - 10/30/2007 7:01:44 PM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline 		I think, esentially, everyone involved in a relationship wants the other person to be happy. The Dom backs away from Domming because he feels / sees / hears the sub being unhappy about something. A smart Dom knows when to tuck it away and lay low.

The sub, sensing his handing over of authority, takes the lead role in whatever is going on and thinks that she is submitting because her Dom is allowing it to happen. The Dom, who is enamored of his sub, maybe loves her (if that's what the dynamic is), feels that she is happier in this role and so gives her more control than she had previously. She still thinks she is submitting, even with this greater amount of control, because her Dom is allowing it to happen.

Eventually the Dom will put a stop to it, realizing she's out of his control. She throws a tantrum, and to keep the peace, he allows her more control than she had at the start. She still gets to call herself a sub, still calls him her Dom, but the dynamic has shifted its shape and structure.

Doesn't happen this way all the time, I know, but it's one scenario.

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