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US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 8:18:49 AM   
joanus


Posts: 527
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline 		The US is soon going to switch Rifles from the XM series, which brought you rifles like the M16 and the M4, to a newer line which I believe is called the MAK12 (if this is wrong please post the name of the weapon) which most of Europe has been using since 2000.(you can see it in the movie 28 days later) I've seen held and fired this weapon, and I must say I aprove its light like the M4 but takes a whole new aproch to Weapon MoDing you can now customize every little thing from the cailbur to the sights in seconds. (something that takes much longer on the M4)  Like your tight trigger but your calibur is too small for the job? The trigger is now its own single piece. You can now pop it out of your old .22 and stick it into your new .45 as easly as you change DvDs in your DvD player. Look it up on the Guns and Ammo website and see for your self.
Its about time people 20 years so too long to wait.
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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 8:24:20 AM   
FatherMayi


Posts: 11
Joined: 6/8/2007
Status: offline 		Does it still have built-in "friendly fire" capabilities like all previous American guns?

(in reply to joanus)
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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 8:40:06 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Over complicated piece of shit.  The European's last came up with a good gun when Saive at FN designed the Fusil Automatique Leger or FAL.  Guns are as subject to fads as anything else and nobody makes money on an old design.  Never thought I would long for the M16 and think of it as simpler!  Stoner stole the best stuff from Johnson to design the M16 then used that filthy gas system and a cartridge with too little taper to function well.

I would take a Finnish Valmet over all the rest any day of the week, it is an AK built to European standards, heck the Hungarian commercial AKs with Steyr hammer forged barrels will outshoot most people.

I like my women complicated and my guns simple.  My FN Browning HP has 1/3 the parts of any of the modern go fast 9mm and will outlast and be far more reliable than any of them.  In fact, you could take a browning and use it to beat the other guns into twisted piles of crap and it would still function flawlessly.  Anytime you see a guy oversees carrying one, you KNOW he is the professional, the kids with all the wizbang stuff work for him.

(in reply to joanus)
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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 8:52:55 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Don't forget, many of our current weapons are either old or simply updated versions of old weapons.

The Colt 45 adopted as the 1911 is still missed by many in the military for its durability and ruggedness, two things NOT shared by the M9 Berreta.  It was itself an adaption of the 1905 Colt.

The classic M2 Browning heavy machinegun that is mounted o n allmost all of our armored vehicles was a WWI design although not built till later.  The cartridge itself was copied from a WWI German one. 

The M16 is itself copied from the 1941 Johnson LMG used by the Marines to great effect in WWII.

The "new" european weapons are all updated models of guns that were designed prior to WWII.

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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 8:59:49 AM   
joanus


Posts: 527
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline 		Brownings in my personal experiance jam and/or fuck up to offen, the AK (the Kalosnikhov) series in my opinion is a hearty well rounded gun that even a 7 year old can't (and do) use. Nothing stops it rain, snow, mud, nothing. Though I do like the AK74u for its light weight and lower jam rate (mine has never jamed).
Now I do agree that the MAK12 is a bit too complex for a simple minded soldier *cough*american*cough* to use but then again the XM16E1 (that the M16 to you civilians) was too complex for them back in Nam. Personaly I think the XM16E1 was a trainwreak of a gun. It was too heavy (almost 15lbs without ammo) and it jammed like a bitch when on full auto but it was the first gun to feature a 3 burst shot option. Why cause the typical American pulls the trigger and fires the first bullet in the derection the gun was pointed the rest of the clip is emtied into the sky, US troop still do this today. I would prefur the M4 over the M16 because of its light weight (5lbs when loaded) low jam rate (lower than that of the AK47) and its many MoD options(sites, lazers,lights and grenades). But the AK74u out stips them all with the light weight of the M4, the power of the M16, a super low jam rate, MoD options,and a folding stock.

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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:00:34 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Don't forget, many of our current weapons are either old or simply updated versions of old weapons.

The Colt 45 adopted as the 1911 is still missed by many in the military for its durability and ruggedness, two things NOT shared by the M9 Berreta. It was itself an adaption of the 1905 Colt.

The classic M2 Browning heavy machinegun that is mounted o n allmost all of our armored vehicles was a WWI design although not built till later. The cartridge itself was copied from a WWI German one.

The M16 is itself copied from the 1941 Johnson LMG used by the Marines to great effect in WWII.

The "new" european weapons are all updated models of guns that were designed prior to WWII.


Yeah, it's been downhill since the 1911.

Of course, some would suggest that 1894 would be the date...

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 10/31/2007 9:01:40 AM >

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:04:05 AM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		I agree with you, the scope should be as complicated and powerful as possible (Preferably including MRI or heat-signature scan), but the gun kept simple, since the fewer moving parts, the less there is to jam...Especially in a hot, sandy environment, sand really grinds your gears!

As to friendly fire, that's a function of the soldiers, not the guns: Overlapping arcs of vision/fire=GOOD; stepping in front of a teammate's line-of-fire=BAD. (Drastic oversimplification acknowledged and intentional)

And of course, you need some way to tell who's friend and who's foe...Like say, a bunch of Iraquis approaching a (Blackwater) machine-gun nest, how do you know if they're civilians or hostile forces doing the guerilla thing?
And as mentioned above, what kind of idiot steps in front of a gun WILLINGLY (Wile E. Coyote and other cartoons ignored for purposes of this discussion)

Also, why don't Americans--soldiers AND police--confiscate and use enemy firearms and ammo? Other than the reliability bonus, the sound would be the same as enemy troops, so the enemies couldn't home in on the "different" noise of American weapons...and the possibility of making it LOOK like enemies shot each other, since the dropped shell-casings would presumably be AK-style...Sow confusion among enemies, save money!

< Message edited by EPGAH -- 10/31/2007 9:07:50 AM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:05:47 AM   
joanus


Posts: 527
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Don't forget, many of our current weapons are either old or simply updated versions of old weapons.

That and their made by the lowest bidder

The Colt 45 adopted as the 1911 is still missed by many in the military for its durability and ruggedness, two things NOT shared by the M9 Berreta.  It was itself an adaption of the 1905 Colt.

Try the new Berreta Neos, they feel the same as the colt.

The classic M2 Browning heavy machinegun that is mounted o n allmost all of our armored vehicles was a WWI design although not built till later.  The cartridge itself was copied from a WWI German one. 

All America machine gun tech. was copied from the germans. The US used german machine guns during the Spanish American war.

The M16 is itself copied from the 1941 Johnson LMG used by the Marines to great effect in WWII.

Actuallt the XM16E1 line was adapded from the A1 blackrifle line

The "new" european weapons are all updated models of guns that were designed prior to WWII.

I'm not sure of that sense they look and feel nothing like the WWII guns

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:15:00 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joanus

Brownings in my personal experiance jam and/or fuck up to offen... the power of the M16


Then your personal experience must be quite  unusual.  Browning designed nearly every Colt automatic pistol, many of the better Winchesters, and even Remington.  His weapons put Belgium and FN on the map and have been the basis of nearly every modern pistol with the exception of the P38/Beretta locking system.  Considering the time and effort put into replacing the M2 Browning over the last 60 years, it must have something going for it, despite "your personal experience".  Oh, which of the hundreds of Browning designs are you familiar with?

quote:

  the power of the M16


This statement alone disqualifies you from this discussion.  Considering that the 5.56 round fired by the M16 is the WEAKEST rifle round in military use today, the "power" sucks as most have found out in Iraq where it takes multiple hits and is why they have reissued M14s in some circumstances.

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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:16:04 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Stop before you completely humiliate yourself.

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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:24:28 AM   
joanus


Posts: 527
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Stop before you completely humiliate yourself.


This from the man who would know nothing if not for the internet and the google search engine.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:31:29 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Kid, the books in my reference library are autographed to me and don't consist of cum stained copies of gun digest.    

quote:

ORIGINAL: joanus

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Don't forget, many of our current weapons are either old or simply updated versions of old weapons.

That and their made by the lowest bidder
 

we are discussing designs not manufacturing specs

The Colt 45 adopted as the 1911 is still missed by many in the military for its durability and ruggedness, two things NOT shared by the M9 Berreta.  It was itself an adaption of the 1905 Colt.

Try the new Berreta Neos, they feel the same as the colt.
 
Not sure taking 100 years to get it right is a recomendation



The classic M2 Browning heavy machinegun that is mounted o n allmost all of our armored vehicles was a WWI design although not built till later.  The cartridge itself was copied from a WWI German one. 

All America machine gun tech. was copied from the germans. The US used german machine guns during the Spanish American war.
 
Uh no.  The Germans use American designed Maxims, the gun we used in the Spanish American war was the Colt Potatoe Digger designed by Browning.  The WWII machineguns both large and small were ALL Brownings, the modern European heavy machinegun, the MAG is a modified FN Model D designed by Browning.  The German influence is in the M60 which takes its feed mechanism from the German MG42, and the bolt from the German FG42 I think.  The modern MINIMI is a smaller version of the MAG which is of course Browning, he being the inventer of the basis for most firearms.  The M16 takes its gas system from a Swedish rifle but the rest is copied from the WWII US Johnson rifle.



The M16 is itself copied from the 1941 Johnson LMG used by the Marines to great effect in WWII.

Actuallt the XM16E1 line was adapded from the A1 blackrifle line
 
Uh, where exactly do you think THEY came from?  You do know who Stoner was don't you?  Guess who he used to work for?



The "new" european weapons are all updated models of guns that were designed prior to WWII.

I'm not sure of that sense they look and feel nothing like the WWII guns



Obviously your feelings are based on your rather complete ignorance of the development of military weapons.

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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:38:25 AM   
joanus


Posts: 527
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline 		And I'm suppoused to feel threatened by a guy who has not only never been on a battle field but is the laughing stock of every thread he posts on? While your militant "I the biggest cock" ways are amusing when veiwed at a safe distance, but to a guy like me who has taken nine bullets to the chest at point blank range you sound like a small dog behind a fence trying to sound toughter than he really is.

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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:40:36 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		LOL!!!!

I -------love a parade!!!!!

TheMusicMan

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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:41:50 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		If you want a basic library I would recomend the following

The entire series of four volumes of Thomas Nelson, The Worlds Assault Rifles, The Worlds Submachineguns, The Worlds Machinepistols, and the one on shotguns.  Make sure the one on assualt rifles is a first as the prints got burnt in a fire and the later editions all have bad photos. 

The Black Rifle is on the history and development of the M16

International Armament by Cummins, the famous arms dealer

A copy of Small Arms of the World from at least every decade since WWII

AEzells Handguns of the World

The Metric FAL by Collector Armory

That is enough to give you a rudimentary understanding of firearms design and development since the turn of the century.  Should only set you back $800 or so but education is so important.

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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:42:24 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joanus

The US is soon going to switch Rifles from the XM series, which brought you rifles like the M16 and the M4, to a newer line which I believe is called the MAK12 (if this is wrong please post the name of the weapon) which most of Europe has been using since 2000.(you can see it in the movie 28 days later) I've seen held and fired this weapon, and I must say I aprove its light like the M4 but takes a whole new aproch to Weapon MoDing you can now customize every little thing from the cailbur to the sights in seconds. (something that takes much longer on the M4)  Like your tight trigger but your calibur is too small for the job? The trigger is now its own single piece. You can now pop it out of your old .22 and stick it into your new .45 as easly as you change DvDs in your DvD player. Look it up on the Guns and Ammo website and see for your self.
Its about time people 20 years so too long to wait.


Did a little googling... no upgrade there.

The MK16 is the ground troops assault rife,
The MK4 is the carbine version
The MK12 is the special purpose sniper rifle and special forces rifle.

All are still based on that Kennedy boondoggle, the Armalite AR-15.  No one would have ever considered that rifle a real combat weapon if Joe Kennedy hadn't been the major stockholder in Armalite.

Stefan

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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:44:02 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Okay so your knowledge of firearms design was delivered by nine bullets and mine was delivered by decades of studying, buying, selling, building, destroying, and using military firearms.

Clearly your education didn't include the importance of not standing in the way of bullets.

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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:44:40 AM   
ModeratorEleven


Posts: 2007
Joined: 8/14/2005
Status: offline 		Children, please.

XI


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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:45:15 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Stefan,

I have never heard that before but it wasn't Armalite that made the money off of the AR it was Colt but if you have a link I am very interested.

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RE: US finally Upgrades - 10/31/2007 9:45:25 AM   
joanus


Posts: 527
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline 		Some how I doubt knowing that the name of the guy who designed the gun that foran the gun that was the base of the desgin of the gun a guy has leveled at my head is going to help. I'd rather know how that gun works it's specs and functions so I can weigh my options on how not to get shot.

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