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Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 9:44:58 AM   
missturbation


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Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		It's extremely rare i watch the new's and even more rare that i take any notice of what is being reported on. However today my attention was caught at the sound of £250 million and housing for immigrants. The money however is not really what this thread is about. I've put a link to the report below so you can read it and get the background info.
 
Three things struck me when i was listening to the reporter and Trevor Phillips from the equality and human rights commission.
 
1. Apparently British people are being discriminated against when it comes to immigrants and housing. According to some people immigrants are jumping the housing q and also getting better housing than us. When asked to back these theories up people who believe this apparently generally say something along the lines of, so and so in the pub told me, oh i just heard it somewhere. Never any factual back up, just word of mouth.
 
This threw me a little as i have just been thinking i feel sorry for most of these immigrants, that have come here for political reasons. That if anyone was being discriminated against, it was them.
So my question here is do you believe there is discrimination? And if you do, who against?
 
2. Trevor Phillips is launching an inquiry into these claims saying that he wants to once and for all disprove them. He does not believe that we are being discriminated against. When asked on the tv if he was admitting their was a problem he replied by saying he wasn't admitting there was a problem, he was admitting there was SAID to be a problem.
 
He didn't say there MAY be a problem, or POSSIBLY a problem which leads me to wonder - How independent can an inquiry be, when he obviously falls into the category of not believing there is any discrimination against us, or even that there may be?
 
3. The reporter then asked Trevor Phillips if he thought we as a nation were at a point where we could be adult enough to discuss this possible problem?
 
Can we?

Edited to add link - doh me
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7071612.stm

< Message edited by missturbation -- 11/1/2007 9:47:48 AM >

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 10:07:50 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

 How independent can an inquiry be, when he obviously falls into the category of not believing there is any discrimination against us, or even that there may be?
 


..suspension of disbelief and belief is what constitutes a disinterested inquiry. Seems to me he got it pretty much right. If we approach any issue with any agenda we are not going to be able to weigh the facts.
To suggest that there may be a problem, may possibly be right....but it is a thesis, an opinion. Better not to have any opinion at all.

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 2:52:05 PM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
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Status: offline 		Truth gets distorted here in the states as well, when it comes to immigration, legal or otherwise. It being an election year the GOP, with complicit help of the media, whipped up a "hot button issue" for everyone to get riled up about. This time around, it's illegal immigration. We're deamonizing people who have risked life and limb to come across the border, just so they can help support their families back home. None of them are taking jobs away from Americans. They do all the stuff in this country that no one else wants to do.

Yet now, we're getting all these unsubstantiated reports of them bringing diseases into the country, of them putting stress on ER's, of them taking over our schools and draining us finacially. (What almost no one mentions is, they also pay into our social security system, helping to keep it afloat, even though as illegals, they have no chance of ever collecting.)

Everyone is screaming that we need to build a wall along our southern border... I find it strange that we applaud one wall coming down in Europe, while we plan to put one up ourselves. Complete with machine gun nests, mine feilds, and booby trapped moats. America, what the hell ever happened to that inscription at the base of the Statue of Liberty? "Send me your tired..."

It's propaganda, miss. I'm certain of it. The arguments always sound the same....
"Oh, they're so dirty..."
"The smell of their cooking..."
"They breed like rabbits..."
"They spread disease..."
"So many of them are criminals in their own country..."
"They steal..."

and here in the US, the year after the election... the whole issue will just quietly fade away...

It would be almost funny... except that violence against hispanics here in the US is way up, thanks to the hate speech created and fostered by the GOP. Locally, last month, a guy got beaten to death outside a convience store, because a group of redneck types thought he was an illegal. (Kind of reminds me of the gay bashing days in Colorado, right after amendment #2 passed in '92, which was also an artificially created "crisis." That time fostered by the Christian/GOP group Focus on the Family.)

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 3:11:16 PM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		You may be partially correct, the sudden burst of competence of our ICE Agents may have something to do with the upcoming elections, OR it might have to do with millions of international tresspassers who marched through American streets, chanting in mixed Spanish and broken English, waving flags of a "certain other country", and our flag UPSIDE DOWN--UNDER theirs! (A double insult, or maybe showing that America is in distress because of them, since flying a flag upside-down is an international symbol of distress...)
You are absolutely right about vigilante actions, but the presence of illegals DOES provide a disincentive for companies to offer Americans what we believe we're worth (And then they turn right around and whine about "being exploited"--they "risked life and limb" to be exploited--And they could've avoided it all by just staying home!)
These "extra" people will need places to live, so we'll all have to squeeze in closer together...I think they call such conditions "tenements"?
They'll need to be fed, which is the primary reason the agriculture industry "needs" illegals (The agricultural industry could mechanize further)
Also remember, the jobs they take are jobs Americans COULD take, so they either steal welfare and WIC benefits, or they force Americans onto the "dole" instead!
Their loyalties are either divided or lay entirely in their old countries...This is NOT conducive to a nation, let alone "national security"!
And most importantly, the very thing you lionize them for--sending money back home--is exactly what is their worst "feature": Taking money OUT of America's already "slowing" economy! (Chrysler is laying off 12,000 workers just today...It's front-page news!)
America already OFFICIALLY puts billions into Mexico's economy, but it has done no good, and furthermore, this extra money encourages others to dig the gold out of America!

Oh, and the language thing...If they want to stay here, and they're such good people, etc., the least show of good faith would be learning the language, rather than forcing us to bifurcate?

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 3:36:50 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		If anyone enters the UK with children they will get preferential treatment with regard to housing and they will get free medical treatment regardless of whether they have children or not.
Come to the UK if you have TB for example, we will help you !
If you have lived here for 70 years and your hip is buggered then we will help you too....eventually.

These are facts and have been so for many years.

Most Asylum Seekers are not removing themselves from political exploition but they are, like you Missturbation, not interested in politics but are sharp enough  or well enough advised to recognise stupidity, that they can turn to their advantage, when they see it.

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 3:40:51 PM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		If anyone enters the UK with children they will get preferential treatment with regard to housing and they will get free medical treatment regardless of whether they have children or not.
Come to the UK if you have TB for example, we will help you !
If you have lived here for 70 years and your hip is buggered then we will help you too....eventually.

These are facts and have been so for many years.

I'm far from saying you are wrong here but can you back these statements up. You claim they are fact but where did you get this factual? information from?

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 3:50:49 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Having lived too long.
It is a legal requirement that local authorities provide housing for families with children

It is costing the exchequer, ie the tax payer, me and I assume you,  millions if not zillions.
I cannot quote the particular statute. It does exist

Trevor Phillips is an opportunist who will say anything to justify his 100K+ salary.

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 3:54:50 PM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		With respect you cannot state something as fact which you cannot back up and prove. You must have got your information from somewhere or have you just decided that immigrants are treat better than us. In which case it would be opinion.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 4:29:21 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:


this quote is extracted from a document that outlines the improvements that the new (late 90s I think )human rights legislation  will introduce into British law.
 
Current legislation ie pre human rights prevent street homelessness among families; most families with children who are homeless are automatically in priority need and entitled to be re-housed by the local authority. However, existing legislation fails to prevent the use of temporary accommodation for families which is often of poor quality. This is due to a shortage of affordable housing and pressure on local authorities in areas of high demand. Placing families in temporary accommodation is the only way that some local authorities can currently fulfil their homelessness duties.


The "sauce" is
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt200203/jtselect/jtrights/117/117ap06.htm

Your'e Welcome

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 4:32:42 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		If you listened to current affairs political programmes occasionally you would know that David Cameron has just suggested that such social priorities be reexamined.

Soppy sentimentality is USELESS.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 11/1/2007 4:33:30 PM >

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 4:36:55 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

With respect you cannot state something as fact which you cannot back up and prove. You must have got your information from somewhere or have you just decided that immigrants are treat better than us. In which case it would be opinion.


While i understand what you are asking here, it`s just as difficult to prove housing policy doesnt favour immigrants, due to its inherent nature. Seeks is right in that the policy of most, if not all councils, works on points. Top of the list are families with young children that are homeless. Next come adults that are homeless. Since most UK citizens already have a home, albeit with family for instance, that although they have an entitlement, they dont have a need. Hence they dont get preference.

This is why the housing situation seems one sided, as far as i am aware homeless, whether immigrants are not, are treated equal. Indeed when Margaret Hodge tried to discusss the issue Keith Vaz called her " The Alf Garnet of Islington"

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 5:20:50 PM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		There is a big difference between an immigrant and a refugee.

An immigrant is someone who comes to live and work here. If they are from outside the EU, they need to comply with visa requirements. These are quite generous to former Commonwealth countries like Aus, NZ, S Africa, Canada, usually offering 2 years to stay.

A refugee is someone who is being persecuted in their home country. They are entitled to 90% of the benefits of a UK citizen, normal health care and school if they are under 16. They may work as normal. They are housed in a similar way to local people - no local council can leave a family on the streets, if they have places for them. But unlike locals, refugees have to take any place  they are sent to, it could be round the corner or at the other end of the country.

An asylum seeker is someone who is not yet allowed refugee status. They get 70% benefits and are forbidden by law from taking a job until given permission to stay. Most of those qualified as doctors, lab techs  etc, volunteer to work for free in UK hospitals. Again, housing applicants are often families.

Single peolpe in either category should get the same housing treatment as a local - ie not much chance.

There is a large fund from the EU which I think pays for homes for a certain percentage of those who cannot work. Some are housed directly by councils.

The £250million is being asked for by local councils and will cover things like translation services and help to teach kids to learn English. Its aimed at all families, not just refugees. There is no legal requirement to house immigrants before local people but the enquiry is meant to investigate this. Trevor Phillips isn't doing it himself, it will be carried out by academics and researchers from top universities.

Try the BBC website or any broadsheet paper's website, maybe the Refugee Council, its not hard to get more details but you won't discover many facts on collarme!

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 5:29:08 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		What we need lack of reality are facts that address the issue. Not list a lot of other facts that do not!

Missturbation would not believe that immigrants asylum seekers or refugees can got priority on housing lists.
They can. It is wrong It is that we are discussing .

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 5:33:37 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Locals also have to take anyplace they are offered or go back to the bottom of the list. Some councils do offer two choices, my own one only offers one.

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 5:52:05 PM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Hi Polite, I believe that if a UK citizen applies to say, Southwark Council, they'll get offered a place in Southwark; unless they specify "south London", which widens the net and may speed things up. An asylum seeker or refugee who applies in Southwark might be offered a place in the Outer Hebrides and can't turn it down. They also get a strict time limit in which to apply for refugee status but I'm not clear on the details and can't be fussed to check!

Seeks - just so we're clear - none of the things you've said here have any bearing on real life. Please don't include me in your ramblings because you seldom have a clue what you're talking about, let alone anyone else.

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 5:52:25 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

Lack of
RealityLicks
(1)A refugee is someone who is being persecuted in their home country.

Almost certainly untrue in a large number of cases. That is why they destroy any documentation they may have.

quote:

 They are entitled to 90% of the benefits of a UK citizen, normal health care and school if they are under 16. They may work as normal. They are housed in a similar way to local people - no local council can leave a family on the streets, if they have places for them.

Why do you appear to find it acceptable that the Brit taxpayer should "take on" the problems generated in many of the worlds "flea pits"

quote:

But unlike locals, refugees have to take any place  they are sent to, it could be round the corner or at the other end of the country.

So lets let them take their time finding something that suits their requirements. In the meantime they can stay in a decent hotel.

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 6:01:03 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Hi Reality, yes i knew what you were on about, i was just pointing out locals only get one choice, for the most part.

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 6:01:04 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		I worked with an arrogant Brahmin Asian who was kicked out of Uganda by that old joker Idi Amin.
He used to regularly assert that the UK was too soft and that it had done nothing for him.

He convenientley forgot that he had brought his children with him. Had received free medical care and free education for both his children to University level.

I hope any ****** ******  Liberal will not  request verification of these FACTS.
I and others had to endure his caste based arrogance for far too long.
Note those Asians expelled from Kenya who had a British passport were not allowed into India.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 11/1/2007 6:03:10 PM >

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 6:09:35 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
Seeks - just so we're clear - none of the things you've said here have any bearing on real life. Please don't include me in your ramblings because you seldom have a clue what you're talking about, let alone anyone else.

In an open Forum that problem is easily solved
Tell me what I have said that is incorrect

Otherwise you can join Missturbation in the naughty corner until I say you can leave.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 11/1/2007 6:16:36 PM >

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 6:16:46 PM   
MissMagnolia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
Seeks - just so we're clear - none of the things you've said here have any bearing on real life. Please don't include me in your ramblings because you seldom have a clue what you're talking about, let alone anyone else.


I guess that proves the point that some aren't "adult enough to discuss it", or anything else, without resorting to being offensive.



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